Objective proof the UpTone Regen ISO can improve a DAC's output(*)

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Amir actually posted some of his credentials.  For one thing he has an EE degree.  So he shouldn't be completely clueless.

 

Except when he demonstrates that he is when it comes to measuring devices with power supplies.  He just posted a big "Whoa, stop the presses" report claiming the ISO REGEN adds 60Hz harmonics to its output:

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-iso-regen-review-and-measurements.1829/page-6#post-46377

 

But it is completely obvious that what he is measuring are the byproducts of the leakage current loop being formed by the interaction of leakage currents between the supplied Mean Well SMPS and the SMPS of his Audio Precision analyzer!

 

Yes, we all know that SMPS have higher leakage currents due to the required 'Y' caps on their outputs.  But it takes two supplies to form an AC leakage loop, and if both supplies are SMPS then the results will be as seen.  Of course the preamps that most people will run their DACs into don't have an SMPS.  Since his AP test gear does it is obvious that his set up is the cause.

For proof, look no further than his own graph showing that with his linear bench supply the leakage spurie are decreased.  

Yet Amir erroneously concludes that the ISO REGEN is polluting the 5VBUS line!

 

This is not even the first time Amir has made this error.  He did so with the microRendu powered by the iFi iPower.

 

There are a few simple tests he could do to more clearly show this, but given his "credentials"--and the tremendous nastiness coming at us from his forum--I have zero desire to guide him.

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Alex, so why is it that ISO Regen with its ground isolation and noise blocking capabilities isn't stopping these ground loops? I thought that's what it was designed to do?

 

Because it is not a ground loop he is forming (though if he puts the ISO REGEN switch in the defeat position, his setup--using single-end connection to the AP and having the same computer connected to both the DAC and the analyzer--would surely form one of those too!).  No, he is forming an AC leakage current loop.

 

That is very different.  It is a significant, widely overlooked issue in audio (and even with measurement equipment), and it very many exists, as exemplified by Amir's graph--which he completely misinterpreted as being the ISO REGEN putting mains noise on the 5VBUS line into the DAC.

 

John has written extensively about leakage/loops.  He has explained:

• what they are (AC traveling over every sort of connection including DC connections);
• where they come from (virtually every power supply; linears have leakage though not as much as switchers, and batteries have none);
• why they form (must be two PSUs--it is the interaction between two or more);
• and how best to mitigate them (reduce impedance between gear by plugging all system mains power cords into a heavy power stirip with zero filtering elements--use a low interwinding-capacitance isolation transformer for protection of gear)

By the way, one of the hallmarks of our own UltraCap LPS-1, its raison d'etre, is that by being "battery-like" (without the performance shortcomings of batteries), it blocks the path of leakage currents.  Or I should more correctly say that it keeps the device being powered from contributing any PS leakage the system's leakage loops.  EVERY audio system has leakage loops, but the combination of the ISO REGEN and the LPS-1 is what creates a complete "moat" between the computer (with its very high and typically quite nasty and "bursty" leakage) and the DAC.

 

Remember, galvanic isolation (just one of the functions of the ISO REGEN) is the blockage of DC not AC.

[Superdad]

At the airport so I'll skip quoting.  But I just thought I would reiterate that typically the device (DAC, DDC) that the ISO REGEN is feeding does not have an SMPS, so while a leakage loop will still form (more likely just be added to as loops between the DAC and preamp supplies already exist), it won't produce nearly the harmonics that would be seen between two SMPS--as in Amir's test set up with AP analyzer's SMPS.

 

To quickly address plissken's Q:  I recall that Amir uses a laptop, and while I don't know if he runs it on battery, one can still see spikes from direct computer to DAC connection.  

[Superdad]

@scan80269 should receive a stipend for so kindly answering on our behalf. Thanks! 

[Superdad]

28 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

And I believe that Amir did point out that he is very zoomed in and that what your PS is doing, while not optimal is simply inconsequential to SQ. It doesn't technically improve things with the Behringer so the advice is the $$ needn't be spent. 

 

That is an assumption on his part based on his simplistic tests. He focuses strictly on residual noise.

He rejects the premise that improved USB signal integrity and impedance match have an impact on DAC function.

Sorry for him that lots of people can clearly hear the effect but that he can't measure it. 

 

And you know, UpTone is no longer the only firm in this space--and there are now plenty of streamer and DAC manufacturers paying attention to the sonic effects of USB SI.

Spoke to the engineers at Aurender two years ago at RMAF (Same show where we chatted with Amir for 15 min. by the elevator--which he later characterized as an in-depth meeting an assesed John as an "amateur engineer.") The Aurender guys said they quite specifically focused on high SI--for its impact on SQ from the DAC.

 

I think Amir needs to broaden his thinking and methods. 

[Superdad]

Brilliant Sam!! 

 

[EDIT: Looks like Sal inserted himself between this and @scan80269'a post I was complimenting.]

[Superdad]

7 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Say there slick, we're still waiting on the posting of your measurements confirming your claims Amir's are in error.

 

No need. Amir's own graph and set up makes the error plain as I originally explained. Two SMPS. Big leakage loop spurie. 

[Superdad]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

 

I'm having a hard time keeping everyone straight. Are you one of those guys who has a secret identity over there? 

 

Yes, plissken is "Jinjuku" at ASR (he is more polite here than there).  Dennis (esldude here) is Blumlein88 there.

[Superdad]

16 minutes ago, plissken said:

What DAC would that be the shows the improved SQ? It's one of the things that I have asked for multitudinous times of Alex and never received an answer until 

 

A great many DACs benefit--and not just the cheap ones.  All you need to do is look at the scores of reports in the USB REGEN and ISO REGEN Listening Impressions thread.  People report great success with DACs in the $5,000-$50,000 range.

[Superdad]

39 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

No, the only leakage loop spurie is with YOUR SMPS. The USB bus power and his lab power supply don't exhibit this.

 

Do I really need to explain this again?  His Audio Precision analyzer uses an SMPS.  So the leakage of it and that of our supplied Mean Well SMPS interact to produce the extra 10-20dB of harmonics (still very low down at -120 -- -130dB)

 

And AC spurie are still seen with his "lab" supply--because it too has a little leakage and interacts with the PS of his AP.

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, scan80269 said:

I agree in principle.  The challenge here is how to have measurements adequately illustrate what our ear/brain are capable of discerning.

 

We have come far over the decades in creating (discovering?) tech attributes like THD+N, intermodulation, TIM, S/N, dynamic range, etc. and techniques like FFT to help us characterize the performance of audio gear, but I'd like to think that our ear/brain is by far the most sophisticated audio instrument, and these attributes and techniques fall far short of being able to characterize what we can actually perceive.  In other words, the capability of our ear/brain is far advanced beyond our current knowledge in math & science related to audio & sound.  Just because no graph can currently illustrate a difference we heard doesn't mean that difference cannot exist.  We are either giving our ear/brain much too little credit for its abilities or attempting to distill the perception down to a bunch of fairly rigid and narrow attributes that are insufficiently representative.

 

Also, I listen to music, not test tones.  Using an FFT plot to illustrate differences in jitter, noise level, etc. with a single test tone may be straightforward, but how do you do that for a piece of complex music, say a polyphonic Mahler symphony with a whole bunch of instruments playing concurrently?  I don't find it surprising that people get offended when told they are delusional in claiming to hear a sonic difference when the FFT graph clearly shows no difference.  Again, being unable to illustrate a measured difference does not automatically mean no difference can possibly exist.  It is a fallacy to claim so.  In my book, the openness to accept the possibility that current measurements can easily fall short of representing what we can actually hear is a form of humility that can help us get farther.  To admit we have yet to learn everything there is to learn about sound and perception should motivate us to continue working to better characterize what our ear/brain does so effortlessly.

 

Wonderful post Sam.  Really cuts to the heart of what has become a dichotomy but should not be.

 

 

Quote

It is with these realizations that lead me to believe that listening with ears is essential during the development of any audio related product.  For example, I know that UpTone's final decision on the USB hub chip brand/model for their ISO Regen was heavily based on listening feedback from a few highly respected individuals.  This tells me that UpTone knows that tech spec superiority and audio superiority are not necessarily strongly correlated.  It's another way of saying it's virtually impossible to engineer audio excellence without any listening involved.

 

Just to be clear about this: We chose the new USB3.1 hub chip for both measurable technical reasons AND (presently) unmeasurable sonic reasons.  But we knew which one sounded clearly better weeks before I separately sent Jud and Larry samples of enhanced REGEN boards--identical except for the 2.0 versus 3.1 hub chip--and marked only with the letters "G" and "M."  

I said nothing to them about how they differered or which one I liked, but like me, they both chose "G" within a minute of comparing them.

 

Of course stuff like that--and the choice to use the Crystek 575--were big obviously audible selections.  Much harder, but cumulatively as important sonically, are all the smaller details, such as elements of the power network for the hub and clock.  Selection of bypass caps for multiple VDD pins of the hub were important, and while John was very careful with low inductance planes for the power domains, I was not truly happy with the SQ until we had optimized the PS bypass caps (some of which were difficult to squeeze into the ideal spots right next to the hub chip power pins;  thank goodness for X7R MLCCs).

 

Unless one has been involved in the design and parts selection--with step-by-step listening comparisons--of many products (I don't pretend to be the engineer, I'm just another skilled pair of ears), it is hard for many to understand how real and critical this part of the design process is.

 

But ask any reputable audio engineer today--be they from Ayre, PS Audio, Conrad-Johnson, Chord, MBL, or Berkeley Audio Design--and they will all confirm that hundreds of critical choices get made both on the bench and in the listening room.  And they will all admit that a great many of the choices they make--based on listening--are not things they can even think of how to measure.

(I realize I mostly named electronics firms, but speaker designers fall under this too; Good luck trying to measure the benefit of pricey film capacitors used in crossovers, but good luck getting any high-end speaker manufacturer to give up their preferred brands.)

 

Still, I readily admit that it seems a bit nuts to be hearing the effects of tiny (1/4 the size of a grain of rice) capacitors bypassing the power pins of a USB hub chip.  Yet sweating this and dozens of other details is what results in a winning performance.  It's the audio olympics and the competition is tough.  And as any athlete will tell you, only the winners are remembered.  (Sorry to be a bit over-the-top here; but I just read that iFi announced their delayed-since-April iGalvanic will at last be released at the end of August.  Will it surpass the ISO REGEN?  Have they been studying our product and sound?  They can certainly out–market us.  We--and the audience--shall see/hear.)

 

Goodnght all,

--Alex C.

 

P.S.  I am back home with our sons from our weekend trip visiting my 88 year old father in North Carolina.  It meant the world to my dad--and our sons are at an age to appreciate knowing him and hearing the history of the Crespi clan.

Biut we now really hate Denver airport.  The connecting gate was well over a mile away--and we had to run almost the whole way to make it!

 

P.P.S.  Dennis I dug your reference to Spirograph.  When I was a kid I had what must have been the largest set they ever made.  Something like 65 pieces.  Played with it for weeks on end.

[Superdad]

17 hours ago, plissken said:

The 60 Hz mains AC leakage noise isn't there with the AP in the loop though. Again, Amir and BE17 pointed this out: The AP for all intents and purposes is just another piece of audio gear.  It is what it is and no matter the amount of swinging away you want to do is going to change that fact. 

 

Been VERY busy since returning from my trip Sunday night (100+ e-mails to reply to just since Thursday?  I think the squabbling here is good for business!). So I am just now catching up with this circus.

 

Can't believe you guys are still missing the point and still arguing over an optional $10 power supply!  

So let's try this again:

a) It is the combination of two SMPS units (the Mean Well and the one in Amir's AP analyzer) which are creating the extra spikes way down;

 

b) Most people (in our market) do not run their DACs into preamps/poweramps that use switching power supplies.  For them there would not be the added spikes when using the Mean Well since there would be no direct interaction between it and the downstream component's PSU.

 

c) Amir's graphs clearly show that even with direct USB connection (no ISO REGEN)--of his desktop PC (with SMPS) to his DAC>>AP--there is still plenty of leakage current noise.  So the particular interaction between his particular PC SMPS and the AP's PS is not terrible, so what?  It will vary greatly from PC to PC.  But the lesson there is that having multiple SMPS in a system is undesirable.  Again, most people don't, and in fact a lot audiophiles use computers/streamers with linear supplies.

 

d) Even any AC-connected linear supply is going to have some leakage and will interact with the higher leakage from an SMPS.  Take a look at Amir's graph when his "lab" supply is used--what you see remaining is the leakage of his AP interacting with his lab supply.  If he powered the ISO REGEN from a battery (or our LPS-1) even all that would disappear.  

 

 

So you guys should stop blaming the optional $10 supply ($15 with the 3-wire AC cord always included).  It takes two supplies to form a leakage loop.  Maybe Amir should ask AP why they don't build a proper, low-leakage LPS into their $25K test equipment!

 

An for heavens sake, look at all the wall warts that come with so many other products.  I don't see anyone screaming about those (except Amir when he encountered the very same issue during his testing of the microRendu with its optional iFi iPower SMPS wart; he made a mountain out of a molehill then as well). Every system has AC leakage currents running through it.  Deal with it--or use batteries, our UltraCap LPS-1, or a fully integrated, leakage-free unit like Vinnie Rossi's LIO (preamp/DAC/power amp--all on ultracapacitor PS).

 

 

16 hours ago, plissken said:

So now additional money beyond the $325 HAS to be spent not to get the problems with the included SMPS. Makes you wonder how much validation, if any, was done.  Why even include a 3rd party SMPS when you have all the design chops in house to build a straightforward linear 5v .5 amp power supply. That would cost $10 in a BOM. 

 

Ignoring your usual sniping (about "validation"):  See above points a) thru d).  And show me a $10, 1A LPS.  There are plenty of Chinese built LPS boxes available on eBay for $30-60, but none that can be sold worldwide with certifications.  Export is more than half our business and the Mean Well units have certificates valid in about 60 countries.

And again, people are free to add their own supply, use batteries, or buy our ultimate piece, the UltraCap LPS-1.  

 

16 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Amir measured Behringer DAC while powering ISOR from his lab power supply. All the noise related to Meanwell PS went away, so I'm not sure why measuring with a battery or LPS-1 would prove  anything.

 

See d) above.

 

15 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

And what's the most important part? Sighted, unreliable, impossible to duplicate subjective listening?

 

The hundreds of people who are thrilled with sonic result of inserting the ISO REGEN do not seem to have a problem with their "sighted listening" (isn't that an oxymoron?  and maybe offensive to the blind).

 

8 hours ago, plissken said:

The AP is a piece of audio gear so the argument can be made it's meant to represent a typical setup.

 

See b) above.

 

Quote

Alex was asked if he would do his own bias controlled evaluation. He said he would and then he disappeared from WBF immediately after Amir said he would fly out. I would still like to see this take place. 

 

Two years later and you are still misconstruing the interaction as an invitation to Amir.  It never was.  (Someone asked if I could tell the difference with the USB REGEN in a blind test; I said "Sure, any day of the week--in my system/room with my music."; Amir then said he would hop on a plane.  If you said you were a good cook and could tell how much salt was added to your meal, does that mean I am invited to your house to have you prove it to me?)

 

And for those who think Amir does not have some sort of agenda against John and me:  I see that just yesterday he continued his passive-agreessive campaign against us (much to the delight of his followers--I could hear Sal1950 squeal all the way across country) by posting my LinkedIn profile and making specious claims about John such as: "John has never used an audio analyzer and is not familiar with the signal processing concept here so makes a bunch of assumptions."

 

WTF?!

 

5 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

It's an objective result that ISO-R with Meanwell PS caused more AC noise in an otherwise very clean DAC output. It's an objective result that replacing Meanwell by a lab LPS removed this noise. Don't know what your interpretation is, but mine is that the inclusion of ISO-R with Meanwell PS can cause additional noise to be injected into the DAC.

 

See a) and d) at top.  A measurement system becomes part of the system.  Especially when measuring very low level noise.

 

Quote

Speculation about AC leakage loops formed by AP Analyzer is the subjective part in this discussion, provided with no objective evidence to back it up.

 

Not speculation, just electrical facts.  Amir is the one with the AP analyzer--he should sort it out.  But his agenda and ego might prevent him.

 

 

5 hours ago, jabbr said:

Lab power supplies are typically floating which reduce the issues with leakage currents (to the extent that the floating supply is not ground coupled by parasitic capacitance)

 

Reduced but not eliminated.

 

5 hours ago, plissken said:

I have to again point out that it's not a manufacturer showing this but someone with some skepticism showing this. But somehow the messenger is getting some backlash over it.

 

If an auto-body paint guy posts ultra-close-up photos of the factory paint of a Mercedes showing orange-peel--and then rants about it o the internet--should Mercedes spend their time arguing with him?  Orange-peel is a fact of product paint jobs.  Get a hand-rubbed custom job if you don't like it.  But don't tell us the rest of the car is shit because of it.

 

4 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Yes, which is exactly why Amir's measurements are useful, at least to me. $655 is almost the price of my DAC, and I can't see spending that much money on a USB clean-up device. $325 was much more within the realm of possible  I did consider buying ISO-R, but was holding out to see some measurements. Seems to me that was the right move.

 

Again, everyone has plenty of less expensive options for power supplies.  And none of Amir's measurements have anything to do with the sonic efficacy of our product.  

Look no further than his test-bench perfect measurements of the $70 Behringer DAC:  If that piece measures so well, then why are audiophiles the world-over not rushing to replace their MSB, T+A, PS Audio, and Chord DACs with it?

Amir says it sounds great to him.  Should we all fall in line and believe?  Well since he also posted that he has had a terrible time figuring out how to operate HQ Player and that he does not hear any differences between its many filter options, I'm going to suggest that he stick to the bench and not dispense advice on the SQ of equipment.

 

 

2 hours ago, scan80269 said:

Hey, I just realized what Amir's current measurement setup is great for: quantifying the AC leakage contribution of specific power supplies!

 

Re: the graphs in post #108 in the ASR thread, the amplitude differences in the bumps at 60Hz & harmonics between the red and yellow plots represent the contribution to AC leakage by the Mean Well SMPS.  By replacing the Mean Well with another power supply to power the ISO REGEN, the measurement can reveal the delta from the yellow baseline for that power supply.

 

Granted such measurements are looking at all the contributors to AC leakage in the system as a whole (an AC leakage loop requires at least two AC-connected power supplies, among other things), it is the differences in measured amplitudes that are revealing of the AC leakage nature of a power supply, as varying only that power supply in the entire measurement setup represents a control experiment.

 

Not really Sam.  John has explained (and measured on his bench) that every combination of power supplies will result in a unique spectrum of leakage current loop patterns.  And some supplies have extremely unique leakage signatures (the iFi iPower has a crazy unusual pattern).

And, as a reminder to everyone, AC leakage (traveling over system DC connections and not just ground lines) is not the same as power supply output noise/ripple.

 

Lastly, someone (scan or jabbr) mentioned that when they have to use an SMPS they prefer a lower-leakage medical version they linked to.  Mean Well makes those too, but the reason we do not offer those instead is that while the better ones have about 1/10th the leakage, they always have C8-style 2-prong AC cordage.   That causes problems for export (I won't get into all the details here), and while there are even some low-leakage "medical" wall-warts with interchangeable plugs, they have some drawbacks and also become pricey.  This is all mostly a non-issue.  The majority (60%) of ISO REGEN buyers choose to either omit the Mean Well SMPS from their order or purchase it as a bundle with the UltraCap LPS-1.

[Superdad]

12 hours ago, plissken said:

The DUT [device under test] is the power supply that is driving the ISOR.

 

This whole thread--and the really distasteful name calling one at ASR--is really getting out of hand.  All this fuss about the optional $10 PS that 30% of people buy with the ISO REGEN.

 

Why?

Because he can't find something else to measure?  Because no other audio components come with wall warts?  Because Amir and all his people are so desperate to discredit UpTone and all the people who enjoy our products?

All of the above it would seem.

 

3 hours ago, esldude said:

You can read in the above post and the next few posts additional testing done.  Including the excellent suggestion (imo) of using a 70 hz power supply to see which device is the source of various PS related signals. 

Essentially, with a laptop on battery, with an adjustable lab supply at 70 hz, with a USB cable wonky enough and long enough using 3 connected together it begins causing issues, the ISO Regen appears to be the source of the 60 hz related increase in the noise floor.

 

All Amir--and those who keep hailing his posts--is proving with those supposed power supply tests is that he does not understand how and where leakage loops occur.

I have already said that this is not about leakage from the computer side (the ISO REGEN does block that).  So laptop on battery or AC does not matter.

All of what is being seen is the interaction between the SMPS in his AP analyzer and the Mean Well powering the downstream side of the ISO REGEN.

[And to whoever suggested just putting the AP on an isolation transformer--that likely won't work.  This is AC leakage over DC connections--in other words it is going from the USB ground, to the DAC, then on the RCA cables to the analyzer, then through the power supply.]

 

So what he is measuring does not matter unless you are using a preamp with an SMPS.  In which case you should buy a $35 linear supply for the ISO REGEN.

 

Again, this is not the first time Amir has proved he is not set up to properly test products powered by an SMPS.  He did the exact same thing when he tested the microRendu powered by its (also optional) iFi iPower.

Really he should ask his buddies at Audio Precision to offer a proper LPS for their analyzer so it can stop interacting with device measurements.  Knowing AP they would probably charge $4,000 for such an option, but hey, Amir can swing it in the name of "Audio Science!"

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

What are you talking about? You allowed for a data void. It's being filled by someone else. Your product does indeed fix a really poor performing DAC. The MeanWell SMPS that you make available however cuts the other way with a well performing DAC.

 

It funny, but I don't see iFi or Wyrd4Sound or any other manufacturers in this space publishing measurements or being raked over the coals for including an SMPS with their products.  (And again, we give the option for people to choose see other PS. Though of course the Mean Well is a non-issue--in relation to what Amir is showing--if people are not using a DAC or preamp with an SMPS.)

 

1 hour ago, plissken said:

I've never seen someone get an EE to do a deep dive on their product, show all that is going on, at ZERO cost to you, and then belly ache. Some of these issues are easily correctable by you.

 

We can't correct the fact that his $25K analyzer has an SMPS whose leakage interacts with that of the powers supply he is testing.

 

1 hour ago, plissken said:

You dig that hole as deep as you want. No one believes you at this point that he doesn't understand AC Mains leakage loops.

 

Well is sure appears that he does not since he went to the trouble of publishing a graph comparing use of his laptop on battery versus adaptor power and declaring as "proof" the same result.  Clearly looking at the wrong end of the elephant there.

 

1 hour ago, plissken said:

A bit of advice. THANK Amir for the measurements.

 

Your got to be effin' kidding!  Thank him for what?  

For his two-year campaign to discredit our products with a series of poorly conducted measurements (some of which he himself later had to revise or retract)?

 

For declaration of our products as "Useful as a rock from his garden"?

 

For making numerous personal remarks to discredit me (I have never claimed to be an engineer, so I don't know why he felt the need to post my LinkedIn profile) and for calling John an amateur engineer and questioning his knowledge and ability with test equipment.  (Good grief, have you see the sophistication of some of his designs?  We are not worried about anyone copying the UltraCap LPS-1 because it would be massively difficult to do.)

 

For fermenting and encouraging deplorable hostility towards me and my company by his fan-base at his forum?  His passive-agressive routine is like Trump at a rally.  Read the posts and you can almost hear the chants of "Lock him up!" (I hear you Sal!) 

 

 

1 hour ago, plissken said:

Is that an option for the ISOR on your site currently? Why not make it the default and just have a new retail price? 

 

You are asking if we sell a cheap linear PS for people to use with the ISO REGEN.  Something between the Mean Well SMPS and our UltraCap LPS-1.  We do not at present, and there are some very practical business reasons for that:

a) Small, 1A, regulated LPS (wall-wart or table-top) in the 6-9V are near impossible to find these days--everything is SMPS;

b) Such supplies do not have CE certification, and even if I find one that does we would have to maintain separate stock for 240V countries;

c) There is no point for us to stock (again in both 120V and 240V versions) the Chinese units that are readily available.  We already have enough headaches with customs offices giving the fully certified Mean Wells a hard time (going to stop trying to ship those to Germany--the local offices there keep claiming Mean Well's certificates are FAKE NEWS!)

d) We considered building our own simple LPS. But aside from the regulatory issues when selling any product that plugs into the wall, by the time one puts a transformer, AC input jack, fuse, switch, voltage selector, and circuit board into a chassis and carton, there is no way for us to compete.

 

Back when we first decided to offer a nice supply--for REGENs, microRendus, and other devices--we did look closely at doing a scaled down version of our big JS-2, with a choke filter and all.  But I really wanted to do something more WOW, and we were already looking ahead and considering the whole leakage current issue.  So I proposed to John that we do an ultracapacitor supply.  MUCH more difficult, took much longer, and is not cheap.  But since we can "energize"/charge it with the same Mean Well that thousands of people already got with their REGENs (that application blocks the leakage path), and could avoid making the wall-connected supply, that was the path we chose.

 

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

Alex is suggesting a $35 LPS. Don't know which one as of yet.

 

Well, $40 from China seems to be as low as I can find on eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/15W-Regulated-PSU-DC-Linear-power-supply-LPS-5V-6V-7V-9V-12V-15V-18V-24V-/162195133700?hash=item25c3955504:g:HmYAAOSw6DtYVNUu

Some of those can be pretty iffy though.

 

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

If you're going to be an ass kisser I guess it's best to pick the correct one ;-)

 

You are so charming...

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

I would be more interested in the degraded signal using the serial connected USB cables that the Regen failed to clean up.  What can you say about that? 

 

Hi Dennis:

It is not a matter of lack of "clean up."  What is happening there (with 23 feet of super thin USB cables strung together?) is a degradation of signal integrity bumping up against the limitations of the Silanna chip and its interface with the hub chip we chose.  Basically those crap cables at unsanctioned length are inducing duty-cycle errors between the Silanna isolator chip and the hub chip.  Amir is inducing data errors, so expect lots of nasties to be heard.

 

Limitations of the technology.  We do not market the ISO REGEN as a USB extender.  But of course now that Amir has found something else at the margins, you boys over at ASR are likely to spend days crowing about it and demeaning the product and my company with findings that have no relation to the use of the product.  I see that he is already posting WAV files recording the noise of what he does not even realize are data errors.

 

And you wonder why I have contempt for what is going on...

 

[Superdad]

41 minutes ago, plissken said:

My other idea is to use a molex extension cable and bring the computers 5 volt out to the REGEN. That would really be the best way to drive a Regen IMO.

 

Good thing your opinion is not doing any engineering.   You can power a REGEN with 5 volts, but then it won't be able to provided regulated 5VBSU power to the bus-powered Behringer DAC.  (LDO regs need at least a little drop to regulate you know.)

 

It is also a bad idea since powering from the computer (sharing the same ground as the computer's USB jack) will defeat the galvanic isolation provided by the ISO REGEN.

 

Just give it up pliss...

[Superdad]

20 minutes ago, esldude said:

So rather than try to discredit the messenger maybe acknowledge the truth and accept it.

 

Sometimes it is not the message--rather it is the erroneous conclusions and rush to judgement that I disagree with.  Whether by Amir or the rest of the crew there and here, there is an obvious agenda to discredit our device using whatever means--and nasty words--possible.

 

As someone pointed out, UpTone is not the only firm who has had to put up with this sort of defamation.  I recall iFi spent a few weeks trying in vain to explain things to Amir.

 

And of course there is the lovely "job" he did on the microRendu--another product well loved by thousands.

[Superdad]

 

Quote

In one case we have the ISO Regen and some poor cabling which results in unlistenable distortion from data errors.  Replace it with a $29 USB hub and we get a clean signal. 

 

For Pete's sake Dennis, I already explained this.

18 hours ago, Superdad said:

It is not a matter of lack of "clean up."  What is happening there (with 23 feet of super thin USB cables strung together?) is a degradation of signal integrity bumping up against the limitations of the Silanna chip and its interface with the hub chip we chose.  Basically those crap cables at unsanctioned length are inducing duty-cycle errors between the Silanna isolator chip and the hub chip.  Amir is inducing data errors, so expect lots of nasties to be heard.

 

The cheap hub he tried does not provide galvanic isolation, so his comparison is invalid.  Testing our device way outside both USB cable-length spec and expected use case and declaring it inferior is just further evidence of Amir's agenda to defame us.

 

We could have put a second hub chip--up steam of the isolator--to make the ISO REGEN more tolerant of crap signals.  But it meant another clock and additional circuitry, more problems computer>DAC recognition--and it did not sound good!

 

 

1 hour ago, plissken said:

It does improve the output of the Modi 2 where nothing else has done so. The improvement is no insignificant.

 

The 60Hz noise is another, separate issue, that could be a simple tweak away since the $29 Insignia hub doesn't show this.

 

Two things could explain that:

1) We don't know when on his bench--in relation to his AP analyzer--Amir plugged in the tiny wall-wart that came with the BestBuy hub.  And since that is a two-prong, non-polarized-plug item, it could be plugged in either way.  With SMPS leakage currents (again--always between two supplies), reversing the polarity of one device can often cancel instead of reinforce the interaction.  And for us 120/0/120V homes, plugging a device into the opposite phase of the line can also change things.

 

2) About 3 years ago, when choosing a PS to include with the original USB REGEN, I tested about 7 SMPS units (plus one small linear).  We ended up choosing this 2.93 amp Mean Well because these larger units had larger output filter caps--and this one was the clear winner sonically versus the others.  But yeah, it probably has greater leakage from the 'Y' caps across its higher current circuitry.  

------------

 

My beef with Amir and those of you who buy into and amplify his erroneous conclusions is that it shows how easily measurements and connections can be made to show any product in a poor light.  It is irresponsible at best, and materially harmful at worst.  

 

For the hundreds (thousands if you include the original USB REGEN) of users who greatly enjoy our products (or the similar ones from the competitors who followed us), there is no doubt about the efficacy and benefits in their music systems.

 

But just last night I had two people cancel their orders, and when asked why they said it was because of "measurements" they saw.  

[Superdad]

I just posted this reply to Amir over at ASR:

 

=============================

Okay, I give up. You're right.
The 22W Mean Well tabletop SMPS that we offer as an option (because it gave better bass performance the wimpy 1A ones I tried, has full world certifications, and an IEC320 C14 socket for easy world power cord selection--and I hate wall warts) does have more direct leakage currents than other choices, and with single-ended inputs will transfer some low level harmonics into the DAC.

Mean Well--a manufacturer we trust (far more reliable and consistent than many of the other Chinese SMPS brands) is now offering a bit wider range of "medical" AC>DC adaptors. These have about 1/10th the "touch current" as their industrial Level VI adaptors. But except for the truly overkill 40W units, they come only with two-prong C8 sockets. It is a real pain to have to stock cords with plugs for every county, and the customers get mad when they can not use a standard power cord.  

I'd rather have people use a modest LPS with the ISO REGEN (or our 100% leakage free ultra-low-noise UltraCap LPS-1), but maybe I can offer a low-leakage wart for those who want it.

So now will your fixation with our supplied SMPS end?

=================

 

Now maybe this thread can turn back to more relevant topics.

 

John has begun work on an analyzer system that we hope will allow a look at very close-in jitter--just a few cycles either side of the test frequency skirt.  And yes, this will be on the output of the DAC.  This is the sort of measument--far finer granulated that typical FFTs--that @jabbr, John, and other DAC designers have been considering for a while, and we suspect it is the sort of measure that may begin to reveal and correlate with what is heard when clocking, SI, and other ultra-fine variables are changed.

 

Because in the absence of more research into what people are hearing and why, all we are stuck with are course jitter plots an lots of arguing against what a wide range of people hear--with all sorts of components.

 

Let's work together to advance audio art and science.  It's bad enough that politics and other predudice divides the world.  I think we are all tired of it dividing our hobby.

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S.  I was going to end with something snarky about Sal, but then I just read his above post.  Wow, there is a decent person in there after all. 

[Superdad]

57 minutes ago, Siltech817 said:

Maybe the IsoREGEN, or W4S Recovery will boost the quality of the Macbook's USB connection allowing the DAC to perform better.

Have you tried the IsoREGEN with a Macbook and found no improvement?

 

Dennis (esldude) has not, but hundreds of others have.  You might find more useful information in the thread where people actually listen to the product--with many different computers, streamers, and DACs--and report their findings in great detail.

 

 

Also, our products are sold with a 30-day, money-back satisfaction guarantee (no restocking fee, just the modest cost of the original postage to get it to you).

 

The majority of the people in this thread deny that USB cables, computer source variation, or USB signal integrity and clocking can make any audible difference.  They are very much in the minority.

 

It is true that most attempts to see variations in the analog output of a DAC--that correlate to what large groups of people hear--have not yielded much.  In face there are $79 DACs that, with present measurements, perform on the bench identically to $10,000 DACs.

But in the listening room they sure don't sound the same...

 

 

 

[Superdad]

26 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

And guess what? Alex didn't share any measurements, even when I and others asked for them. Amir did, and he measured exactly what I wanted to see, with better equipment than I have access to. He found an issue with the product, which Uptone either wasn't aware of or didn't want to discuss. Tell me again why I should care about Amir's supposed bias?

 

Remind me again what measuments you wanted us to publish?

 

And please tell me why Amir's "discovery" of leakage currents from the $10 optional SMPS we offer is supposed to be some big revelation, resulting in condemnation of a product whose function is galvanic isolation and USB signal regeneration?  

Lots of audio products come with an SMPS--including DACs and other USB devices (see the iFi iPower that comes with many of their products and which produces quite similar leakage--we have measured it and others)--and the users have a choice to use something else.

 

This thread has become weirisom and at this point I'd rather not toss fuel on the fire by citing the obviously biased phrases and judgements that Amir lead with in his "expose" at ASR.

 

 

[Superdad]

13 minutes ago, Digital Assassin said:

Did you get your knee-pads autographed?

 

Is that you Dave A? Or John K?

 

I'm not Amir's friend, but really, could you please tone it down a bit?

 

Our counrty (and the world) is divided enough--thanks in part to a president who won't even condemn racism.  Let's not turn CA into an ugly battleground.

 

The reputation John and I have built with UpTone can easily survive its small number of vocal detractors.  But no need to throw chum in the water to attract the sharks...

 

Thanks,

--Alex C.

 

 

[Superdad]

19 minutes ago, Digital Assassin said:

I a NOT speaking for Alex. But if I WAS Alex I would refund your money, and I would even pay you not to EVER even think about being a customer again.

 

Just like when Alex cancelled Amir's order and told him to take a hike.

 

This is the second time I am asking you to KNOCK IT OFF!

 

The fellow was expressing some honest feelings of doubt.  Whether or not he decides to cancel his order or to receive the device and listen for himself (with 30-day money-back return privileges) is entirely his own business.  

And UpTone is my business, not yours.  

Please stop inflaming things here.

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S.  About the only two people I have every wished would be banned from CA (and yet I never have recommended such) are you and Sal.  Guess I little tolerance for extreme radicalism on either side (in audio, politics, or life). 

[Superdad]

59 minutes ago, Dicky said:

What his political bent has to do with audio, power supplies and galvanic isolation is a mystery to me. It's not why I'm here. But apparently Uptone has made a determination that disparaging and alienating half of its potential customer base is a sound business model. 

 

Well my comment--about a divided and divisive nation, and a plea for more civility here--was not an expression of my personal political leanings.  

Maybe some of you don't watch the news, but it has gotten pretty ugly out there.  There are over 900 active hate-groups in the USA, and just this weekend something pretty horrific took place.  Both Republican and Democratic lawmakers called out Trump for not specifically condemning the White Nationalist and Nazi hate groups involved (and those groups reveled in the fact). This really is not a partisan issue.  It is one of human decency.  

 

I am open to most all viewpoints--and I have plenty of Republican friends.  But violent racism is something else entirely, and while I doubt there are many audiophiles in that camp, I'll gladly pass on business from any of those.

[Superdad]

22 minutes ago, plissken said:

Don't forget his post where he stipulated that a larger enclosure may have allowed them to pay more attention to getting the mains noise of the SMPS down. 

 

The point of the small enclosure since the very beginning is to allow the device to plug directly into the input of the DAC without using another SI degrading cable.  That is also why we came out with the USPCB A>B Adapter (a 4-layer board with stripline impedance control).

There is already plenty of ultra-low-noise regulation in the ISO REGEN (see below), and SMPS leakage current through ground is not something that one just gets rid of easily on-board.  That's why 60% of the buyers choose to use a linear supply.

 

22 minutes ago, plissken said:

There isn't. It's a USB 3.x silicon with some galvanic isolation and a very inexpensive dip switch.

 

Really?  Is that all there is?  Have you seen the BOM for the board?  There are 78 parts on it, including over $20 in the world's lowest-noise voltage regulators, a $20 galvanic isolator chip, the lowest-phase noise production XO, and a carefully crafted power network--all also on a 4-layer board.

 

22 minutes ago, plissken said:

I know what switch he's talking about and don't disagree with the assessment of a bottom barrel switch on a $325 device. Looking at my Emotiva DC-1 that has been sold for as little as $429 direct from Emotiva and I heartily agree. 

 

The switch?  Yes, they cost us only $0.11 (in 1,000 pc. qty.).  But it is actually a quality DIP switch from a reputable manufacturer. Find me another single-pole, right-angle switch that will fit in that spot at the input of the board.  It is only meant to be used as a diagnostic tool to defeat the galvanic isolation if need. That is why it is a recessed DIP switch.

 

22 minutes ago, plissken said:

This is a matter of interpretation. If the ISOR helps all these high priced DAC's out then there are a bunch of audiophiles with gear that are steaming piles of junk.

 

NEWS FLASH:

Standard jitter and noise measurements fail to correlate to a LOT of the differences that people hear with digital components.  Amir himself has proven that with tests of a $79 DAC showing those metrics to equal megabuck DACs.  But are you really saying that nobody can hear the musical differences between them?

 

John and others are developing tests and equipment that we hope will show and prove what we have been saying--and what thousands of people have been hearing--with regards to upstream jitter and SI affecting DAC performance.  And yes, I mean at the analog output.  (The effects can already be measured on the ground-plane and at the clock inside the DAC.)