Getting rid of CD's?

[foodfiend]

4 hours ago, agladstone said:

Sooner than later I fear we will all see "streaming only" become the wave of the future, thus, none of this thread matters nor will make any difference, the "system" (Physical CD sales) has been broken, re-invented, forever changed!!

And how I fear that day, when we are left without any choice but to stream any new music (we can still listen to the older music that are already in our collection though)! Perhaps it is even more frightening than the arrival of the Night King in Westoros! For the night is dark and full of terrors...

[foodfiend]

3 hours ago, stuck_limo said:

What if an item is completely out of print, and the rights holders aren't making any money off it, and the family/performer isn't either? And you can get the albums on torrent because you can't legally purchase a new copy? Should the torrent still be shut down? 

Like what esldude says, it is still illegal.

 

3 hours ago, stuck_limo said:

 

What about morally? 

Some may say that it is a grey area, especially if the original artiste is no longer in the business, and the label is defunct and was never bought by anyone. Else, there are some companies who specialise in re-issuing old music, if they see demand. As such, any torrent activity still deprives them of possible future income.

[foodfiend]

@agladstone I think there are two scenarios here:

 

1. You buy a full retail price CD, rip it, and then throw the CD away. You have paid for the music, and the loyalties have gone to the music label and the artistes respectively. I would go so far as to say, make sure you destroy the CD (eg. break it in half, so that it is no longer playable), so that the license that was given to you for replay stays and ends with you as a single license.

 

2. You buy a full retail price CD, rip it, and then sell it at a garage sale, while keeping your original rip. Again, you have paid the relevant royalties, but when you on-sell said CD, so goes your license to listen to its musical content. What you actually buy in a CD, is a license to play the music content of said CD. Once you on-sell, so goes that license. How does it benefit anyone that way, even though the music label/artiste does not get any money directly from the proceeds of the garage sale? Think about it, if the buyer at the garage sale did not buy that CD off you, that individual would probably listen to the music through streaming, or by buying another copy of said CD. If the former were the case, then the artiste still gains from the stream. If you have sold your CD, and no longer had a rip, but still want to listen to the music (that's the point of originally keeping the rip, isn't it?), then you probably would have to stream music, or buy another copy of said CD.

 

That is why I say the two scenarios are quite distinct.

[Paul R]

20 hours ago, DancingSea said:

 

I said absolutely nothing of the sort.  You are putting words in my mouth to validate you're own position.

 

Instead, I suggest you just stick to your position, make your case.  I'm all ears.

 

I do not think, on any moral level - **whether one can get caught or not** - that there's anything wrong with the OP selling off his old CD collection and doing whatever he wants with the rips.

 

The person who collected all the receipts thought it important to do so.  I doubt they just enjoy pieces of papers, thus the reason must be to be able to prove that they own every piece of music on their computer.  Thus there must be some motivation to be able to prove that.  Because no one cares about their receipts - no one -  I find the exercise meaningless.   But that's just my opinion as it pertains to me.  If they want to collect music receipts, go for it.

 

My statement about receipts has *zero* to do with the morality of the OP's intent to sell his CD's.  They are two different topics.

 

 

 

Horsey Poo - you most certainly have posted more than one message indicating that someone would be foolish to worry about the morality or legality of this action, based upon the idea that they would never be "caught" or face any kind of punishment. 

 

It's not really a complex question - either it is moral and legal to sell CDs and keep the ripped copies, or it is not.  Your opinion, once one removes the layers upon layers of snark, is that it is both moral and legal. 

 

Obviously, there are a large number of people who do not agree with you, which probably makes them pretty wise in this case. 

 

-Paul

 

[Paul R]

17 hours ago, esldude said:

Hate to see a long and near meaningless thread close down after it should have concluded on the first page.

 

So would it fix the morals and ethics to send a small fee to each artist of each CD approximating their cut if you rip CDs, keep the rips and sell the CDs?  This way artists who deserve the money get it, and greedy bastard record companies get nary a penny extra.  Typically you could send 50 cents per CD to the artist and have their end covered.  $1 per would most definitely cover the artists cut for certain. 

 

Sorry, if someone already suggested this as I didn't read all the other pages of posts.  So still illegal (in the USA), but is it now good ethically or morally?

 

Hey Dennis - it would not surprise me to find there is probably already something like that setup. And I personally like the idea. 

 

But until the laws are changed, if you sell the CD the only way to be sure you still have the rights to play the music is to buy another copy of the same CD.

 

-Paul 

[Bystander]

20 hours ago, DancingSea said:

 

I do not think, on any moral level - **whether one can get caught or not** - that there's anything wrong with the OP selling off his old CD collection and doing whatever he wants with the rips. 

Agreed. Laws obviously differ across countries but it seems like a silly thing to get worked up about regardless (I'm reasonably sure it's legal in the one I'm from, but I couldn't tell you for sure).

[Speed Racer]

4 minutes ago, Bystander said:

Agreed. Laws obviously differ across countries but it seems like a silly thing to get worked up about regardless (I'm reasonably sure it's legal in the one I'm from, but I couldn't tell you for sure).

 

I don't know of a country where it would be legal to buys CDs, rip the tracks, sell the CDs, and keep the ripped tracks. Maybe China....

[Bystander]

30 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I don't know of a country where it would be legal to buys CDs, rip the tracks, sell the CDs, and keep the ripped tracks. Maybe China....

How many countries do you know where it's definitely illegal? Like... have you actually done research on this? I certainly couldn't tell you one way or another for most countries.

[kumakuma]

16 minutes ago, Bystander said:

How many countries do you know where it's definitely illegal? Like... have you actually done research on this? I certainly couldn't tell you one way or another for most countries.

 

The existence of international copyright agreements signed by most countries of the world means that list of countries where it's legal is going to be pretty small. 

 

I'm guessing that we have few members from the countries who aren't signatories to one of more of these agreements:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_copyright_agreements

[agladstone]

The bottom line in this current day and age and for the foreseeable and indefinite future is,,, you can do whatever you want!! 

Whatever it is that you're personally, morally, and ethically comfortable with is all that matters in today's world! 

The laws are draconian and will not be and are no longer enforced nor will they ever be again!

I've researched this and read many articles about it, the RIAA has no way to police, manage, stop or enforce these draconian laws in this day and age, they are putting about 99% of their efforts towards trying to stop the illegal downloading of content via Torrents and YouTube and Facebook,, and they've come to the conclusion that they simply can't stop or control it. The day that do somehow manage to shut down a torrent or music sharing website, it re-opens the very next day under a slightly different name or a slightly different URL. 

Not one word has been even remotely mentioned by them whatsoever in regards to trying to police, manage, or stop people from buying a CD at full retail price, ripping it and then selling it whilst still keeping the ripped copy for their own personal use! It's not on their radar and it's of no interest to them to put any time, money, or effort towards it! They must figure the same thing that I do in that scenario, at least they're all getting paid at least once in that scenario, and that's one more time they actually receive one cent vs what 99% of the world population is doing, either illegally downloading for free via a torrent, YouTube or Facebook. 

Mand they've even stopped trying to fight that, they realize they've lost that war and it's not worth their effort or money trying to fight a losing battle. 

The RIAA going forward will be focused on trying to regulate and negotiate for the highest possible share per stream they can get via streaming providers because they see that sooner than later that will be the only method of music released to the public. If they can stop physical media from being produced and force a streaming only model, then they can stop the Torrents and YouTube and Facebook free illegal downloading and sharing and control and retain some minute sliver of revenue via being paid per stream. 

But once again, it's stopping torrenting and free sharing of music that no

one is paying at all for (which they realize they can't), so now they're trying to force streaming only as a method of control. 

Its probably been 10+ years or longer that the RIAA or anyone else has even had a thought in regards to someone buying a CD at full price, ripping it and selling the physical CD while retaining the rip, it's not on their radar and they don't care what you do with it nor will they enforce the draconian laws in regards to it, it's just not on their radar nor is it of any concern to them vs. Torrenting and Youtube and Facebook and trying to figure out how to get higher streaming revenues. 

So do whatever it is that you're personally comfortable with, but please do not do something based upon whether it's legal or not via fear or concern of being "caught" for it, you won't be! They don't care!! 

 

[stuck limo]

1 hour ago, Paul R said:

 But until the laws are changed, if you sell the CD the only way to be sure you still have the rights to play the music is to buy another copy of the same CD.

 

-Paul 

 

Who, besides on this forum and the Hoffman forums, are sitting around having a debate and a moral wrestle with themselves/others over the fact they may or may not be legally able to be playing a file?

 

Who else does this keep up at night? Who is sitting around hesitating before they hit "play" and dreading the fact they may make the wrong decision?

[Bystander]

13 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

The existence of international copyright agreements signed by most countries of the world means that list of countries where it's legal is going to be pretty small.  

Which treaty in particular would necessarily prohibit the mentioned sequence of actions? I'm not sure what to do with that link. 

 

Quote

a list of countries which have signed and ratified one or more multilateral international copyright treaties

 

[kumakuma]

16 minutes ago, Bystander said:

Which treaty in particular would necessarily prohibit the mentioned sequence of actions? I'm not sure what to do with that link. 

 

 

 

The Berne Convention establishes basic international standards for copyright protection including the exclusive right of the copyright holder to control the reproduction of a copyrighted work. If a country has signed the Berne Convention, I would assume that transferring ownership of a music CD to someone else while retaining a copy of it is illegal in that country. 

[Speed Racer]

What is wrong with people? Do whatever you want? Probably a millennial....

[The Computer Audiophile]

31 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

 

Who, besides on this forum and the Hoffman forums, are sitting around having a debate and a moral wrestle with themselves/others over the fact they may or may not be legally able to be playing a file?

 

Who else does this keep up at night? Who is sitting around hesitating before they hit "play" and dreading the fact they may make the wrong decision?

 

Nobody is kept up at night, but there are some very intelligent intellectuals in this community who enjoy a good exchange of ideas and to be challenged once in a while. 

[Ralf11]

38 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

 

Who, besides on this forum and the Hoffman forums, are sitting around having a debate and a moral wrestle with themselves/others over the fact they may or may not be legally able to be playing a file?

 

Who else does this keep up at night? Who is sitting around hesitating before they hit "play" and dreading the fact they may make the wrong decision?

 

vegans?

[foodfiend]

I realise that policing of laws may be poor in certain countries and jurisdictions, but that does not negate the rule of the law. An individual may take his chances with the law, chancing that he will not get prosecuted. However, let's be clear, copyright infringement is breaking the law. Whether you get caught, and get prosecuted for it, has no bearing on that.

 

I live a country that has lots of arcane laws which do not make sense. Finding no basis of logic in these laws does not give me the right to break them. Correspondingly, if I choose to break these laws, I do stand the chance of prosecution in the legal system.

[agladstone]

28 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

What is wrong with people? Do whatever you want? Probably a millennial....

I (almost) wish I was a Millennial! I'm actually pushing 50:( !!

And as I've stated, I personally have more than 4,000+ physical CD's and about 600+ SACDs and about 100+ DVD-A's and Blu-Ray Audio discs proudly stored in nice cabinets at home! I'm not selling any of mine, even though I basically only open them once after being bought to rip them and then they get stored forever untouched! 

However, even though I choose to keep my physical CD collection and I'm proud of it and admire it, there will be NO consequences nor legal complications to anyone who so chooses to buy a physical CD, rip it, and then sell it whilst keeping the ripped copy for themselves. Thus if it's within their own moral and ethical comfort zone, they're free to do so without fear of any consequences regardless of what some archaic draconian law may actually say, it will not (as in never) actually be enforced from now going forward.  

Its actually illegal to have "doggy style" or "cow girl" or anal sex in many states still in the USA and it's also still actually illegal in many states in the USA to drink, buy or sell alcoholic beverages on a Sunday (in Pennsylvania where I live it's even technically still illegal for a business to even be open on a Sunday)! 

However, thousands upon thousands of people have "doggy style" often and even in sundays while under the influence of alcoholic beverages on a Sunday that they bought at one of thousands of stores open on that said Sunday and would never give any of the above one moments thought or concern nor would they ever actually be arrested for any of it, yet it is all still technically illegal per a draconian law! 

Buying a CD, ripping it, keeping that rip, and selling that CD at a garage sale to a neighbor for $1.00 has become exactly the same as drinking a beer in a nice Sunday afternoon and then having sex in any other position besides missionary with your wife, girlfriend, partner etc. It's the same exact difference, it may still be technically "against the law", but the law is old and no longer enforced! 

So,, do whatever you want with a CD after you buy it for full retail, it's up to you and only you, no one else cares!! 

[Bystander]

58 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

The Berne Convention establishes basic international standards for copyright protection including the exclusive right of the copyright holder to control the reproduction of a copyrighted work. If a country has signed the Berne Convention, I would assume that transferring ownership of a music CD to someone else while retaining a copy of it is illegal in that country. 

I'm not sure that's a safe assumption due to limitations and exceptions to copyright allowed for in local law. That said, the moral issue here is more interesting to me than the legal one. Personally, I feel like I'm doing my part for the artists and music industry in general. Should the day ever come that I decide to sell, donate or otherwise give away my CDs while holding on to digital copies of my own, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I'd probably feel worse if I trashed the CDs instead.  

 

I'm just hoping anyone will still want them. 

[DancingSea]

I'd like to take this opportunity to invite everyone to Maui.  After two weeks of sand, sun and surf, it will not be so important that strangers on the internet have a different opinion than yourself.

 

Thus may those with more liberal used CD selling beliefs join hands with the those who revere the letter of the RIAA's law, and remember, that beneath our various, and at times, opposing opinions, we are human just the same.

 

Lets return to our common ground of good sound, and good music.  A tip of the hat to everyone, no matter your position.

 

May this thread rest in peace.

[agladstone]

Amen! 

[stuck limo]

4 hours ago, agladstone said:

I (almost) wish I was a Millennial! I'm actually pushing 50:( !!

And as I've stated, I personally have more than 4,000+ physical CD's and about 600+ SACDs and about 100+ DVD-A's and Blu-Ray Audio discs proudly stored in nice cabinets at home! I'm not selling any of mine, even though I basically only open them once after being bought to rip them and then they get stored forever untouched! 

However, even though I choose to keep my physical CD collection and I'm proud of it and admire it, there will be NO consequences nor legal complications to anyone who so chooses to buy a physical CD, rip it, and then sell it whilst keeping the ripped copy for themselves. Thus if it's within their own moral and ethical comfort zone, they're free to do so without fear of any consequences regardless of what some archaic draconian law may actually say, it will not (as in never) actually be enforced from now going forward.  

Its actually illegal to have "doggy style" or "cow girl" or anal sex in many states still in the USA and it's also still actually illegal in many states in the USA to drink, buy or sell alcoholic beverages on a Sunday (in Pennsylvania where I live it's even technically still illegal for a business to even be open on a Sunday)! 

However, thousands upon thousands of people have "doggy style" often and even in sundays while under the influence of alcoholic beverages on a Sunday that they bought at one of thousands of stores open on that said Sunday and would never give any of the above one moments thought or concern nor would they ever actually be arrested for any of it, yet it is all still technically illegal per a draconian law! 

Buying a CD, ripping it, keeping that rip, and selling that CD at a garage sale to a neighbor for $1.00 has become exactly the same as drinking a beer in a nice Sunday afternoon and then having sex in any other position besides missionary with your wife, girlfriend, partner etc. It's the same exact difference, it may still be technically "against the law", but the law is old and no longer enforced! 

So,, do whatever you want with a CD after you buy it for full retail, it's up to you and only you, no one else cares!! 

 

Same here, I've purchased around 3,000 CDs, support local music shows, buy merch, buy downloads, legally stream music, etc. I don't have any issue morally purchasing used CDs just because someone may or may not have ripped it before me. I don't personally sell my CDs, I keep them all for a variety of reasons. But I have no moral issue with selling CDs and ripping them or loaning them out to friends--- by that logic, let's ban all libraries because thousands of people read books without the author being paid for each and every single one. It's ridiculous. 

 

Besides, no one asked my opinion on the law when they made it, and no one bothered updating the law to how we live in 2017. 

 

So certainly, do whatever you'd like to do ---- keep them, not keep them, rip them, not rip them, etc. ---- just don't expect others to follow your own brand of morality, and don't push on others to follow it either, especially when it's (essentially, for all intents and practical purposes) a victimless crime. 

[Confused]

Whilst debating the difference between stuff that is perhaps not legal but is morally OK, what about us poor folk in the UK?  I still buy CD's, and still have the physical discs for anything ripped on my PC.  If I play music at home, it is most often a CD rip played via my PC.  I also play ripped CD's in my car via an iPod.  I think this is morally OK, but it is illegal in the UK.  Some past posts have stated that if something is illegal you should not do it, period.  But what if the law is stupid?  I pay for my music, most of what I have paid for is physical media, CD's, vinyl in the past.  I have never downloaded music from torrent sites or similar and not paid for it.  So I have done my bit for the music industry, paid my dues.  However, if I listen to a CD rip from my PC because it is more convenient or simply because my streaming system sounds better than my CD player (which it does), I am breaking the law.  Perhaps a simple point, but think that when stating that if something is illegal then you quite simply should not do it, there is a limit.  It does rely on the laws themselves being sensible, and indeed morally sound.  Or perhaps some of you think I should delete the rips I have made of my own CD's for my own personal use?

[Speed Racer]

1 hour ago, stuck_limo said:

 

Same here, I've purchased around 3,000 CDs, support local music shows, buy merch, buy downloads, legally stream music, etc. I don't have any issue morally purchasing used CDs just because someone may or may not have ripped it before me. I don't personally sell my CDs, I keep them all for a variety of reasons. But I have no moral issue with selling CDs and ripping them or loaning them out to friends--- by that logic, let's ban all libraries because thousands of people read books without the author being paid for each and every single one. It's ridiculous. 

 

Besides, no one asked my opinion on the law when they made it, and no one bothered updating the law to how we live in 2017. 

 

So certainly, do whatever you'd like to do ---- keep them, not keep them, rip them, not rip them, etc. ---- just don't expect others to follow your own brand of morality, and don't push on others to follow it either, especially when it's (essentially, for all intents and practical purposes) a victimless crime. 

 

No one said a purchaser should have to worry whether the seller has deleted the rips from a CD they are selling. They are selling the CD and any license that would have allowed to have the rips in the first place.

 

As discussed, this is not a "victimless crime" no matter how you rationalize it.

[stuck limo]

7 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

No one said a purchaser should have to worry whether the seller has deleted the rips from a CD they are selling. They are selling the CD and any license that would have allowed to have the rips in the first place.

 

 

Fair enough, but there are people out there who believe the used market for CDs should not exist. I don't have any problem with the used market or people ripping and selling.