Getting rid of CD's?

[DaQi]

Great discussion going on her. Led me to thinking...

The law says I am authorized to make a back-up copy of my CDs.

So, if I, "hypothetically" (not saying that I actually do this), listen to that back-up copy - is that actually illegal? So, I am guessing that a lot of us here are listening to our back-up copies of our CDs and not the actual CDs. So, could I be "hypothetically" actually violating the original license I was granted when I bought the CD? Again, not saying that I am actually doing this. Yikes. Going even further could this whole site be condoning a clearly illegal process with our hobby and discussions about how best to rip CDs. Double-yikes. Damn, by posting here I could be contributing to the mass piracy that this site condones. Oh no!

 

BTW, Heavy sarcasm but does illustrate how ridiculous the laws may be. 

[Speed Racer]

The law says you may make a backup copy but that does not mean you can't listen to the backup instead of the original. If that would the case, Apple Match could not adds songs in your library that you di not buy from Apple to your iCloud account.

[kumakuma]

2 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

The law says you may make a backup copy but that does not mean you can't listen to the backup instead of the original. If that would the case, Apple Match could not adds songs in your library that you di not buy from Apple to your iCloud account.

 

I think most of us here on CA are listening to a copy of the original CD, rather than the actual polycarbonate disc.

[Speed Racer]

16 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I think most of us here on CA are listening to a copy of the original CD, rather than the actual polycarbonate disc.

 

Wow! Really? 

 

Now that I have the sarcasm out of the way, look at the post above the one of mine you quoted. 

[kumakuma]

16 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Wow! Really? 

 

Now that I have the sarcasm out of the way, look at the post above the one of mine you quoted. 

 

Yes, really!

 

BTW, my post was more an amplification of your post, rather than a rejection. Should have made it clearer

 

 

[Albrecht]

31 minutes ago, DaQi said:

Great discussion going on her. Led me to thinking...

The law says I am authorized to make a back-up copy of my CDs.

So, if I, "hypothetically" (not saying that I actually do this), listen to that back-up copy - is that actually illegal? So, I am guessing that a lot of us here are listening to our back-up copies of our CDs and not the actual CDs. So, could I be "hypothetically" actually violating the original license I was granted when I bought the CD? Again, not saying that I am actually doing this. Yikes. Going even further could this whole site be condoning a clearly illegal process with our hobby and discussions about how best to rip CDs. Double-yikes. Damn, by posting here I could be contributing to the mass piracy that this site condones. Oh no!

 

BTW, Heavy sarcasm but does illustrate how ridiculous the laws may be. 

Hi.. Interesting.. and fun as you wrote it....

One of the points that I was trying to make earlier, was that we should probably be careful of how we use the word "law" here. The "law" is not clear, very fluid, and quite undecided. Music publishing is not copyright law, and not the same as the written word as from books. Except for song lyrics, (and especially with untranscribed melodies), who owns a particular song or part of one is not always clear, and different contracts have different publishing rights, and different distribution permissions, and even performance rights. The contract that mys songwriting partner & I had on our label was very different than many other "rock groups." Whatever the label chooses to write on the back of the CDs may reflect some sort of "rights" of the label vs the consumer, or their agreement with the artist and the distributor: it may not actually reflect anything that is attributable to the "law."  There are many court cases, some with conflicting decisions, that reflect both sides of this issue. Ordering a 13 year old girl to pay $150,000 in fines for downloading a few shitty sounding .mp3s from a torrent site is just one case. There are other precedents to cite where almost the opposite decision has been rendered. When we separate out the difference between plagiarism vs copying, clearly the legality and corresponding justice part of what is right changes again. Once we as fans of the music start accepting the model and some of the bogus arguments and language of extra-judicial exploiting enterprises: we can possibly contribute to harming the artists as well as the art. It is a deep concern to me to see a marked decline in originality and overall quality of the art of writing and making music with this new, Netflixization of music and the 1 song download model; coupled with a ferocious & hostile reaction that won't let 1 penny not go to the greedy exploiter who harms the art by controlling the distribution channel, the least important aspect.

 

[Speed Racer]

Music is absolutely covered by copyright law.

 

https://ucomm.wsu.edu/music-copyright/

[Jeremy Anderson]

(in reference to rando's reply to my reply on the previous page...)

 

Yes, the old "single song is what I want, not the entire album" conundrum. I was always a whole-album guy, but there's a reason singles would invariable get released in all manner of mediums. The irony, of course, is the corporate profiteering you called out would result in them packing more and more songs onto the "single" plus alternate takes, edits, etc, in order to increase the appearance of "value" for the end consumer and thus justify a higher price tag than 1/Nth of the full album price (where N is the number of the tracks on the full album).  Suddenly the "single" costs $10 where the full album cost $15, but the "single" has 3 extra tracks not on the original album plus two alternate takes and a live version. What a bargain!

[rando]

Don't forget nightstand/traveling dictionaries with just the popular words and spiced up definitions.  Conveniently sized to fit into the box of your word based board game of choice for when it goes over to the neighbors for game night.  Never mind they have a full size one politely left on the shelf.  Got to work every angle in turn with just enough variety to seem new and recognizable enough to be easily accepted,  

 

On the whole I think the responses @Grayson64 got were lacking the friendlier response they deserved.  There are a lot of sticky issues along the outer edges of behavior where entertainment media is being greatly devalued.  Loosing the dogs of war on some guy in his armchair contemplating the future of honest goods lacks a great deal of merit.  Society has long since evolved a way to deal with this and it is moving them along the chain of capitalism.  Half price book stores and CD warehouses keep a lot of usable goods out of the landfill and provide employment.  The good outweighs the bad when you consider some HS kid getting to listen to music and engage wide ranging interests that will help form the foundation of their adult life.  If not gain a lifelong interest we should be embracing.  By stopping at suggesting Grayson should do the adult thing and let bygones be bygones.   

[foodfiend]

15 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

can you cite the statutes, regs or cases on this?

 

I'm getting curious

 

Did you read the link I provided? Those are the laws that have been updated, and are in force.

 

RIAA v. Tenenbaum

RIAA v. Thomas-Rasset

BMG Music v. Gonzalez

Elektra v. Barker

RIAA v. Nievelt, Peng, Sherman and Jordan

RIAA v. Howell

 

The list goes on...

[Confused]

Some might be interested to note that it is illegal to rip CD's in the UK, even for personal use and irrespective of intent.  I have added some links below for those that might be interested.

 

I was actually listening to some music in my car this morning, ripped from a CD I purchased. I have an iPhone in my pocket which contains files ripped from CD's that I have purchased.  I have a PC at home with 1000's of ripped tracks, all triple backed up on separate hard drives.  All of this is illegal in the UK.  I am a very bad person and I should be prosecuted.  Per the links below, there is a quote 'The Government is not aware of any cases of copyright holders having prosecuted individuals for format shifting music solely for their own personal use.' 

 

So maybe I'll be OK, I'm too pretty to go to prison anyway.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33566933/ripping-music-and-films-illegal-again-after-high-court-overturns-new-law

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jul/17/high-court-quashes-regulations-copy-cds-musicians

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/itunes-is-illegal-under-new-uk-copyright-law-10443890.html

[Paul R]

Endless repition will not make something untrue true, or something that is true untrue. What is, is. 

 

Unlike the vast number of opinions here, especially opinions presented and even vigorously defended, as fact. 

[Ralf11]

17 hours ago, foodfiend said:

 

Did you read the link I provided? Those are the laws that have been updated, and are in force.

 

RIAA v. Tenenbaum

RIAA v. Thomas-Rasset

BMG Music v. Gonzalez

Elektra v. Barker

RIAA v. Nievelt, Peng, Sherman and Jordan

RIAA v. Howell

 

The list goes on...

 

those are cases, and have limited jurisdiction (i.e the 7th Circuit one only applies in parts of the mid-west)

[DancingSea]

For me, the original poster ought to be able to throw out, giveaway, donate or sell his CD's as he sees fit.  And I don't see the need to delete his digital copy because he sold a very old used CD for a few bucks because he has no physical place to store it.

 

In this day and age of torrents sites, both public and secretive, selling used CD's - if you can find anyone who wants them - seems quite harmless.  

 

Its similar to walking across a city late at night and coming to an intersection with no traffic in sight.  The law says no jay walking.  But does it really matter if you don't wait for the crosswalk to change?  A guy getting rid of his old CD's - for me - resonates at the jay walking late at night level of legal scholarly inquiry.

 

Torrent sites where perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of music changes hands freely every day - sure, that deserves legal attention.

 

In the end, may we all have the freedom to make our own decisions - and be treated with kindness and understanding for doing so.

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

On 01/08/2017 at 5:42 PM, Albrecht said:

 

No, - I believe that that is incorrect. You have purchased a physical disc that is a copy of the recording and art work to do with what you will, - EXCEPT REDISTRIBUTE ON A MASS SCALE.

Incorrect ... the scale of redistribution does not matter.  Redistrubtion on ANY scale (even a single copy which would occur if you ripped the CD, gave the CD away and kept the rip is "Piracy".

 

Piracy however is not a term defined in law.

 

[Audio_ELF]

On 01/08/2017 at 11:23 PM, DaQi said:

Great discussion going on her. Led me to thinking...

The law says I am authorized to make a back-up copy of my CDs.

So, if I, "hypothetically" (not saying that I actually do this), listen to that back-up copy - is that actually illegal? So, I am guessing that a lot of us here are listening to our back-up copies of our CDs and not the actual CDs.

Of course you can listen to the backup copy.  What you can't do is continue to listen to the backup if you no longer own the original!

 

At the end of the day though ... we aren't so much discussing what the law says as what people think is reasonable.  

 

Do what you feel is right; but don't try to justify it through manipulation of the working of laws.  I think we all know that the spirit of the law is that buying a CD (or paying for a download) allows you to have that music for you to listen to and play to your friends and family.  You may disagree with the fairness of the laws and the fairness of musicians and record companies; but in essence that is what the law is designed.  If someone else wants a copy of that music; then they have to buy it themselves.  If you want to get rid of the CD of the music, then if you are transferring the CD to someone else for them to own, you no longer have the rights to the music on that CD.

 

1 purchase.  1 person's copy.

 

Do what you want, but don't try to justify that its legal.

[Jud]

5 minutes ago, Audio_ELF said:

Of course you can listen to the backup copy.  What you can't do is continue to listen to the backup if you no longer own the original!

 

Quite clear in the UK.  Different countries have different laws.  Would be nice to have a copyright lawyer (or a few from different countries) on hand to say whether it would be OK in their particular jurisdictions to, for example, donate your physical CDs to a library but continue to listen to the copies.

 

In the US I'm reasonably sure you ought not to sell them to someone else and continue to listen to your copies.  At least that's what the cases (court decisions) I've looked at appear to say.  But though I'm a lawyer, I'm not a copyright lawyer, so take that for what it's worth.  (Also, I am *not* giving legal advice here, just chatting.)  Whether donating them makes any difference, or whether, for example, if you do or don't take a tax deduction on the donation makes any difference, is something I don't know.

 

There are some uses of copyrighted works that, though they would appear to facially violate the US copyright statute, have been "safe harbored" by Copyright Office regulatory action.  That's why it would be nice to be able to ask a copyright lawyer who would be familiar with those, or with other exceptions to the general rule carved out by case law or administrative action.

[Audio_ELF]

9 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Quite clear in the UK.  Different countries have different laws.  Would be nice to have a copyright lawyer (or a few from different countries) on hand to say whether it would be OK in their particular jurisdictions to, for example, donate your physical CDs to a library but continue to listen to the copies.

It’s very clear in the UK, you are not allowed (legally) to make any copy under the current legislation as the new rules were found to be illegal.  (Yes I know, but the UK courts have the ability to rule new legislation “illegal”).

 

As I commented above Jud, as much as anything I was trying to go beyond what the law says (and I’m not a lawyer and definitely not a US Interlectual Property lawyer) and what is reasonable behaviour.

 

As I understand it US legislation and fair use allows you to make copies for personal use?  Well assuming that is right, I would hazard that any “personal use” would be defined by the use of the person who currently owns the original.  If you pass the CD in a form that someone else can use, they then own the original so any personal use would become the personal use of the new owner.

 

(Well that’s how I would see it, who knows if the courts would see it similar and be so reasonable!)

[DancingSea]

2 minutes ago, Audio_ELF said:

It’s very clear in the UK, you are not allowed (legally) to make any copy under the current legislation as the new rules were found to be illegal.  (Yes I know, but the UK courts have the ability to rule new legislation “illegal”).

 

As I commented above Jud, as much as anything I was trying to go beyond what the law says (and I’m not a lawyer and definitely not a US Interlectual Property lawyer) and what is reasonable behaviour.

 

As I understand it US legislation and fair use allows you to make copies for personal use?  Well assuming that is right, I would hazard that any “personal use” would be defined by the use of the person who currently owns the original.  If you pass the CD in a form that someone else can use, they then own the original so any personal use would become the personal use of the new owner.

 

(Well that’s how I would see it, who knows if the courts would see it similar and be so reasonable!)

 

While you may be technically correct, in practice, this feels overly strict to me.  If I'm at a garage sale and someone has a box of CD's for sale, I'm not going ask them if they deleted their digital copy and call the FBI if they haven't  

[Paul R]

5 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

 

While you may be technically correct, in practice, this feels overly strict to me.  If I'm at a garage sale and someone has a box of CD's for sale, I'm not going ask them if they deleted their digital copy and call the FBI if they haven't  

 

Why would you? Unless you have branded yourself an investigator and plundered their home network to find digital copies. That in itself, is quite an illegal act, pretty much anywhere. 

 

On the other paw, what we like or not isn't necessarily what the law is. I don't like a drinking age of 21 in the U.S., but so what?  The drinking age was 18 when I was 18...

 

-Paul

[Audio_ELF]

Just now, DancingSea said:

 

While you may be technically correct, in practice, this feels overly strict to me.  If I'm at a garage sale and someone has a box of CD's for sale, I'm not going to call the FBI  

It is overly strict yes, and no body really sticks to it.

 

As I commented, to me “personal use” is the key.  If you own the CD then you can copy it for personal use, but if you no longer own the CD especially if you sell it or give it away so others can sell it, you are no longer the person who has “personal use” of the CD.

 

Anyway as I commented before, I have no real worry what people do, but if they ask the question, that is what I think is the correct thing and however people justify other behaviour they are breaking at least the spirit (or perhaps the morality) of copyright legislation.

 

Basically threads like this are people wanting to be told they can do things with a clear conscience.  Well no I don’t think you can sell your CDs, keep the rips and have a clear conscience.

[Speed Racer]

12 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

 

While you may be technically correct, in practice, this feels overly strict to me.  If I'm at a garage sale and someone has a box of CD's for sale, I'm not going ask them if they deleted their digital copy and call the FBI if they haven't  

 

That is not your responsibility. When you buy the CDs, you get the right to listen to those CDs and make backups. The person that sold them gave up those rights and, by law, should delete all backup copies they may have.

[DancingSea]

6 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

That is not your responsibility. When you buy the CDs, you get the right to listen to those CDs and make backups. The person that sold them gave up those rights and, by law, should delete all backup copies they may have.

 

My legal right or not, for me, this is too strict.  To each their own.  I have retained my entire CD collection, but I have space for it.  One day I could sell it, and there's no way I'm going to delete my digital copies!

[Speed Racer]

1 minute ago, DancingSea said:

One day I could sell it, and there's no way I'm going to delete my digital copies!

 

Imagine you are a software developer and you have an app that you sell on a CD for $10. Joe Blow buys the app from you and uses it all the time. Now, Joe Blow sells the CD to Jane Doe and she uses the app all the time. But Joe Blow keeps using it too. Now you have two people out there using your app but your only got $10. Now Jane Doe sells the CD to Steve Smith and he sells it to Sally Dohickey. All of these people use the app. Now you have 4 people using the app but your only received $10.

 

How would you like that? You wouldn't. You would think it unfair. So, in regards to this music CD deal, you need to step out of your shoes and see it from the sellers perspective. You selling the CDs and keeping the digital copies for your enjoyment is not only not fair, but not legal.

[kumakuma]

15 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

 

My legal right or not, for me, this is too strict.  To each their own.  I have retained my entire CD collection, but I have space for it.  One day I could sell it, and there's no way I'm going to delete my digital copies!

 

Why stop there?

 

You could also try expanding your library by "borrowing" CDs from an online retailer that allows returns. Unfortunately, Crutchfield doesn't seem to carry CDs...