USB audio cracked... finally!

[manisandher]

Hey Brian, good to know you share private emails with others...

 

24 minutes ago, Boleary3 said:

... let me share with you Mani's April 2016 words to me regarding letting go of the Yggy:

"How are you getting on with things? I ask because I’ll be returning my demo Yggy back to the distributor next week… and I’m already starting to feel sad! I really think I’m going to miss its sound. I’d never say this to Peter (so please keep this between you and me) but I’m almost inclined to say to hell with its measurements. There’s something about its sound that I’ve never heard before and that’s so alluring.")

 

Actually, I did share my thoughts with Peter. Everything.

 

This is one of my first emails:

 

Quote

I’ve borrowed a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC from the local distributor – he offered, so I accepted! It sounds ‘interesting’. There’s a freshness, liveness and clarity to the sound that is really impressive on first listen. But after extended listening it is a tad too sibilant and too lean – not enough body and weight to instruments for my liking. Actually, it sounds like the NOS1a but with a very lean filter (leaner than AP) applied. But nevertheless, very impressive for $2,299.

 

And one you sent to me (seeing as we're sharing):

 

Quote

Hey Mani, Peter tells me you been listening to the Yaggdrasil. He says you've not liked the sound but were initially impressed...

 

Oh, and another one to you, for good measure:

 

I’m now back home and have the Yggy and my [modded] NOS1a both switched on and sitting next to each other. I’ve spent hours listening to music and comparing the DACs – the first time I’ve done this directly and to such an extent.

 

I tried your XX settings and am afraid that they simply accentuate all the things I don’t like about the Yggy. I prefer my regular XX setttings (0.07 and 14, 1, 1, 1, 1).

 

Comparing side-by-side I’m now even more convinced of my original thoughts about the Yggy. It’s got one hell of a seductive sound, but there’s something not right about it… to my ears… and in my system. My recollection earlier this week was of a different sound from the Yggy, but this was obviously my recollection of the Yggy in my  office system (way more forgiving) than my main system. Having the Yggy in my main system, I can listen to a track for all of 30 seconds or so before I have to switch it off. It just isn’t working for me. The NOS1a meanwhile does everything I could hope for and more. It’s simply phenomenal.

 

Yep, everything was fully disclosed.

 

Mani.

 

[Jud]

13 minutes ago, plissken said:

Which means another DAC was properly engineered and didn't allow for this behavior

 

Let us know what the properly engineered DAC was.

[PeterSt]

18 minutes ago, Boleary3 said:

To my ears, in my system, in my house the Lush imparts a smooth, rounded and detailed sonic signature

 

Hey Brian !

 

18 minutes ago, Boleary3 said:

but I have to turn up the volume to get the  bloom I so love with the Clairixa.

 

I sure can imagine something like this. Or let me put it differently : I "do" the same (but am allowed to ).

What I dare "claim" it that it works the other way around (and please feel free to not agree at all, but try to see whether I could be right) :

 

The smooth rounded and detailed sonic signature just allow for for those few dBs more which are "necessary" to pressurize the room. So bass expresses more punch and especially more pressure from the bottom upwards.

 

I'd also agree with the "airy" you mention but in my view this has downsides. Say that I leave it to you to think them over and what you could prefer on the long term.

Also do not hesitate to switch back and forth (such an advice is even in a preliminary text I wrote about the Lush). This is similar to my advice (on the Phasure forum) to never sell your Clairixa's. This is all for a good reason.

 

Thank you for your honest help here !

Regards to y'all out there,

Peter

 

PS: I hope you both can finally give some peace to the Ygg thing. What you quoted was no secret to me as everybody is honest and open in the first place. Well, that is what I hope for and what I see (from your current post as well). So peace, OK ?

 

 

[jabbr]

4 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

 

 

At least one time. 

Yes and I would assume @JohnSwenson also designs power/ground this way but again, for those who assume that simply following a data sheet that specifies 100nF and there will be zero difference between "competently designed" digital products, instead there are real reasons why there are differences.

 

As @marce mentioned, often space constraints may require 0402 or even 0201 parts (higher ESR) and so "real world" constraints may prohibit the ultimate attention to switching noise regardless of the competence of the engineer.

 

That said, these issues are solvable  

[Boleary3]

Thanks so much Peter for your thoughtful reply. I will continue to A-B the cables as your suggest.

[plissken]

15 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Let us know what the properly engineered DAC was.

 

I included the link to the thread. Feel free to sign up and ask. Wouldn't it be a hoot if a $99 DAC did better?

[Jud]

Just now, plissken said:

 

I included the link to the thread. Feel free to sign up and ask.

 

Ah, so you haven’t asked whether your assumption (that there’s another DAC or DACs without the same problem; and what are the price comparisons?) is correct.

[plissken]

18 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Let us know what the properly engineered DAC was.

 

Let me know if you think the behavior Amir measured is going to be the case across all DAC's

[Jud]

Just now, plissken said:

 

Let me know if you think the behavior Amir measured is going to be the case across all DAC's

 

No.  As jabbr just said, issues with regard to quality of USB audio are solvable; and he pointed to @PeterSt and @JohnSwenson as people aware of and designing for some of those issues.  I’m sure there are other folks who do good design, and others whose designs may not be as good with regard to particular issues.

 

The question is always what solutions are available at what price.  Was the most cost effective solution in the situation with the Schiit DAC and WMP purchasing another DAC (for which we have the same measurements Amir performed on the Schiit DAC, showing its immunity), using software that doesn’t throw that type of noise into the DAC, or just waiting for WMP to “settle down,” as Amir put it?  This was one issue; how do other DACs do regarding other issues relevant to each of us in our own homes and systems, and for what price?

[plissken]

15 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

No.  As jabbr just said, issues with regard to quality of USB audio are solvable; and he pointed to @PeterSt and @JohnSwenson as people aware of and designing for some of those issues.  I’m sure there are other folks who do good design, and others whose designs may not be as good with regard to particular issues.

 

The question is always what solutions are available at what price.  Was the most cost effective solution in the situation with the Schiit DAC and WMP purchasing another DAC (for which we have the same measurements Amir performed on the Schiit DAC, showing its immunity), using software that doesn’t throw that type of noise into the DAC, or just waiting for WMP to “settle down,” as Amir put it?  This was one issue; how do other DACs do regarding other issues relevant to each of us in our own homes and systems, and for what price?

 

 

None of this still addresses my question and point: Why is the Caching operations of an Audio Playback application talked about as if there is an absence of other I/O, buffering, Paging operations going on?

 

Years ago I purposefully built a TRS to RCA with the shield tied at the output. You could hear HD access, Mouse events (move, click), and CPU ramp etc...

 

1. It's not just the caching operation of the playback application.

2. It's totally taken care of by a competent design. My $85 EMU 1212M PCIe being one of them. It didn't even have the benefit of being kept outside the computer chassis.

 

Bottom line is every time I see someone just WINDMILLING at getting decent sound out of their setup it gives me pause.

 

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, Jud said:

The question is always what solutions are available at what price.

 

@Jud, I can't speak for others, but I wouldn't care a hoot. Even if the difference in SQ would be minimal, I'd easily shell out a 1000 more. This is personal of course, but the thing is : as a supplier (manufacturer) one should care because it is a commercial thing. But the real audio idiots (as manufacturer) would not care about this.

Fact is (I think) : this can't be any commercial model. It wouldn't survive for long. One could stretch things a bit like Tidal+Spring or MQA and whatever the investor's name is, but I think it is quite easy to say that if it would be about a real deal, it is doomed to go broke because too costly.

 

In the end you are 100% correct of course. However :

 

The attic developments are real and don't I recall some picture in an attic (or was it a garage) from someone named Bill Gates. I forgot who he was, but ...

[Jud]

2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

The attic developments are real and don't I recall some picture in an attic (or was it a garage) from someone named Bill Gates. I forgot who he was, but ...

 

I can see where it might be attics in the Netherlands, but in the U.S. it’s garages.

[Jud]

5 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

@Jud, I can't speak for others, but I wouldn't care a hoot. Even if the difference in SQ would be minimal, I'd easily shell out a 1000 more.

 

If that happened, as I’m paying to build one house while also paying the mortgage on the one I currently own, my wife would soon make me an ex-audiophile!

[PeterSt]

8 minutes ago, Jud said:

I can see where it might be attics in the Netherlands, but in the U.S. it’s garages.

 

You really made my day here !

 

But also :

http://www.businesspundit.com/11-famous-garage-startups-that-rule-the-world/

 

 

[PeterSt]

9 minutes ago, Jud said:

If that happened, as I’m paying to build one house while also paying the mortgage on the one I currently own, my wife would soon make me an ex-audiophile!

 

Education Jud, it is all about education.

 

Fact of life would be that you wouldn't move house. I don't know whether that's a problem.

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, manisandher said:

Hey Brian, good to know you share private emails with others...

 

 

Actually, I did share my thoughts with Peter. Everything.

 

This is one of my first emails:

 

 

And one you sent to me (seeing as we're sharing):

 

 

Oh, and another one to you, for good measure:

 

 

 

 

Yep, everything was fully disclosed.

 

Mani.

 

 

I'm listening to the Yggy via USB for the first time this last week to hear the BBC Proms via the Firefox browser and Adobe Flash plug-in. I must say that the USB input sounds nowhere near as good as does either the optical or the coaxial SPDIF inputs! Perhaps the recently announced Schiit USB upgrade ($159 or $179 stand alone) to address this discrepancy between the USB input and the SPFIF inputs.

[PeterSt]

1 minute ago, gmgraves said:

to hear the BBC Proms via the Firefox browser

 

George, is that about the FLAC thing I read about ?

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I must say that the USB input sounds nowhere near as good as does either the optical or the coaxial SPDIF inputs!

 

Whether it's its USB receiver or something else, it seems the Yggy and the Lush may not be the 'match made in heaven' that I suspected it might be.

 

Let's leave the Yggy out of the Lush discussion going forward...

 

Mani.

[manisandher]

2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

George, is that about the FLAC thing I read about ?

 

Yep. I have some (not all) 16/48 captures if anyone is interested...

 

Mani.

[gmgraves]

2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

George, is that about the FLAC thing I read about ?

 

Yes, it is, and does it sound good. Right now, I'm listening live to Kieth Lockhart (Boston Pops conductor) lead the BBC Symphony in an entire evening of the film music of John Williams. I must say, this is the best sounding streaming audio I've yet heard. 

[plissken]

17 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

I'm listening to the Yggy via USB for the first time this last week to hear the BBC Proms via the Firefox browser and Adobe Flash plug-in. I must say that the USB input sounds nowhere near as good as does either the optical or the coaxial SPDIF inputs! Perhaps the recently announced Schiit USB upgrade ($159 or $179 stand alone) to address this discrepancy between the USB input and the SPFIF inputs.

 

Given what I've seen with Schitt and how they implement USB I wouldn't purchase.

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

Given what I've seen with Schitt and how they implement USB I wouldn't purchase.

 

Yes, you've made that abundantly clear in several threads.

[Jud]

6 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Education Jud, it is all about education.

 

Fact of life would be that you wouldn't move house. I don't know whether that's a problem.

 

Since I told the bank and the builder and my wife, and building has already started, even if I didn't go there, I couldn't stay here!

[manisandher]

Whilst we wait for more listening impressions, this is probably a good time to take stock.

 

On the Phasure forum, Peter introduced his thinking as follows:

 

“But who actually tells that the USB specification with its - mind you - wide margin can't be improved for Audio ? So that is exactly what I did ... First it took two months or so of throughput before I found how specifications as such would influence the sound.”

 

We had the first few user impressions coming through on the Phasure forum very quickly (not from me, as I hadn’t even ordered mine at this point):

• “First seconds already ... WoW!”
• “WOW indeed...”
• “I am using Lush now for 1 day. Very first impression, I am missing something. But within some tracks I started to appreciate the sound. Really smooth and warmer but with same details AND better bass again.”
• “Perhaps it is because I am still in the honeymoon period (my The Lush arrived this morning) but this cable is "the business".  Harmonics anyone?  The albums that I have listened to so far have been very enjoyable. Yes the sound is more lush, or perhaps even warmer, than the Clarixia.  It kind of reminds me of why people choose triodes and 4 or 5 way acoustic systems...that depth of presentation with a harmonic richness to soothe the soul.”
• Lush has arrived here and all I have to say is: WOW !!!! It is like all digital "stuff" has been removed from my system and replaced with analogue.”

Towards the beginning of this thread, I wrote:

 

“When I say that [USB audio’s] been cracked, I mean how a USB cable's electrical and mechanical properties, and its geometry affect the sound has been cracked. Peter now seems to know how to configure a USB cable to voice the sound from it. We are no longer in the realm of trial and error.”

 

To date, we’ve had 4 user impressions in this thread. The first 3 from fellow Phasure DAC users:

 

• “I'll agree with Mani when he says that the current Phasure PC/dac combo is the most musical digital I've ever heard.  An important part of that is the USB cable and The Lush is probably the best money I've ever spent in audio.”
• “The Lush gives my system a 'natural' and 'analogue' sound. Instruments and voices are both full-bodied and crystal clear at the same time. The whole sound resonates beautifully, with a natural decay.”
• “I then changed to the Lush cable(not really burned in yet) and I must say that this is the one. It just gives you the analogue feel together with details. The violins are silky and yet you can still hear them conveying to you the feelings. No excessive full bodied sound. And listen to the gentle decay of the sound at decrescendos and sound slowly dying away. The microdynamics are all there and most important with feeling. And when the solo piano comes in the percussive notes is both authoritative and musical. Very difficult to achieve. And the musical sound and transparency and details are always there and never gives you fatigue. I must say that this is definitely my preferred sound.”

And the most recent from a non-Phasure DAC user:

• “Though the Lush has a very, very pleasing sound it loses the "air" of the Clairixa. To my ears, in my system, in my house the Lush imparts a smooth, rounded and detailed sonic signature, but I have to turn up the volume to get the  bloom I so love with the Clairixa.”

Very much looking forward to hearing more listening impressions, especially from non-Phasure DAC users.

 

Mani.

[mmerrill99]

Good to see the thread back on track

Don't mind Amir's measurements they are great examples of experimenter's bias - those measurements of the Schitt published in the Well Tempered Computer are a perfect example of this - that measurement is using SPDIF output directly from a computer's motherboard into the Schiit. FFS - this was exposed here

Like all people with an agenda he didn't reveal this information until pressed - everyone looking at  those measurements assumed that it was USB connection to the Schiit DAC not a shitty SPDIF output from motherboard

 

Back on topic:

JosephK has done some measurements of 4 USB cables which are interesting here

It's in Italian so translation needed.

Essentially he has built a broadband radio receiver & used it on the USB connector into computer where the USB shield is broken & RF signal fingerprint can be sensed - he amplifies the receiver signal & feeds it into a scope 

 

His scope shots show a test signal of USB preamble then data, then a end of block marker. As he says

Quote

" I'm synchronizing on a data block. We see the initial preambles, with the longer and asymmetric bitlengths, then the high speed / density data block, then block markers at the boundaries, a second block then the final marker."

 

The scope shots posted on the Italian forum are reversed Left to right so I reversed them here:

What you see on the left are the signal spikes of the preamble portion of the USB protocol; then a block of high speed/high density signals which are the data portion & a final spike of end marker

 

Looking at the shots it can be seen that in the generic USB cable the data block is attenuated when compared to the Wireworld cables. The WW starlight seems to be the best measured of the 4 with strong signal for data block  

 

Generic USB cable

 

Wireworld Starlight

Wireworld Ultraviolet

DIY CAT7 cable

 

I believe this may also show ringing or what is translated as "reverb" - when talking about the generic USB cable he says this:

Quote

" Instead in the case of the generic cable, the data block does not make it arrive with magnitude preserved, and almost disappeared, instead the slow signals as preambles are amplified by the reverbs as well as altered, distorted waveforms. "