Amir at ASR claims Uptone won't sell the ISO regen to him...

[rb2013]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

You have captured the point of my smiling oscilloscope, well done!

 

Also there is no metric that captures the time domain information we hear from USB tweaks. Legacy metrics just don't capture the impact, so we only have ours ears.

Yes - time domain information, phase coherence, dynamic impulse response, power supply leakage and interactions, EMI generated by the equipment it self, it almost endless.  So we can look at one isolated part of the picture - but it does not take into account other consequential effects.

 

Only our ears/brain/mind can do that, and does holistically.

[Jud]

38 minutes ago, mansr said:

It wasn't very expensive, and I have better things to do than compare specs for every amp on the market.

 

My DAC plus ISO Regen represents in total the least expensive part of my system.  I got the ISO Regen for free, but even if I'd paid for it that would still be true.  It's still true if you want to throw in the ultracap power supply.  I acquired them all separately, so there was never an individual expenditure over $400 in the process.  As you noted with regard to your amp, in this case I did trust a reasonable job was done designing the ISO Regen.  I realize you don't, starting with whether its intended mode of operation makes sense (to the extent you feel it is even specified).  Perhaps that makes me a trusting fool, but then people have told me in PMs I meet that description for corresponding with you.    If that is the case, so be it.

[mansr]

15 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

I find that what they are doing is mitigating issues with the USB bus.

This assumes a priori that there is in fact a problem with the USB connection.

15 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

In that the USB bus (and output too) is designed for many functions, (mice, hard drives, etc). That USB bus is not designed for audio alone, - and certainly not high performance audio.

Why must something be designed for audio and audio alone in order to be good?

[Speed Racer]

7 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I don't think anything with an Ethernet input does what I want (with regard to running filters of my choice) just yet.  Hopefully at some point in the near future.

 

Filters....where is the roll eyes emoticon? Discrete filters are a waste of time in my opinion. You guys do what you want there.....

 

As far as I am concerned, the best solution for my situation is an Ethernet streamer/end point device that has ultra quiet minimalistic circuitry/power supply and outputs AES/EBU at the music's native sample rate. Oh, it needs to cost less than $500 too. I will add a music server to the mix.

 

This gets the music off my laptop into a dedicated setup just for the music. It eliminates USB and all the associated crap that goes with it.

[Sal1950]

1 hour ago, Albrecht said:

Most manufacturers that i have encountered face to face believe that they have insight into a "great sounding" component that enhances the listening experience and want to share it. Many of these designers have great sound and great listening experiences as their goal with making money as secondary.

That's what's called a marketing spin and it is active in most all industry. I don't condemn them for it, its' what must be done to make sales. I've participated in it myself during my times on the other side of the counter.

But on the consumer side the the enlightened buyer does his homework, questions all claims, and looks for factual supporting evidence.

To believe there aren't business models based on snake-oil products and profit making, is to stick your head in the sand and believe in Santa Claus.

[rb2013]

4 hours ago, semente said:

 

I don't get any pleasure from comparing gear, quite the opposite actually; I do it out of necessity. Fun comes from listening to music.

So, yes, it would be nice to have a gizmo to do the listening for me.

Such gizmo would not be able to tell me which equipment or combination of equipment (system) I would like/prefer but could instead provide information regarding how accurately the equipment or system is reproducing the signal.

Which is what I look for when I perform listening assessments - and whilst I do this as best as I can, often is not enough.

 

In my limited experience more accuracy results in increased musical enjoyment for me, especially with acoustic non-amplified music.

But I know other audiophiles who prefer an expressive playback, with components that play a significant and intentional role in the reproduced sound, and perhaps the gizmo would be of no use to them.

Well my point was just that - the fun is in our emotional and pleasure response to the music.  I do not need a audio listening robot to do that - I was born with all the equipment needed.  A robot can never experience or convey the emotionality of music only technical measures of the sound.  But what are we really, as music lovers are in this for?  Greater connection and enjoyment of music. Right?  I guess for a select few audio bling bragging rights - ego satisfaction.

 

There is a common human trait - brought to bare in our quest for audio/music pleasure/satisfaction.  The basic human trait of familiarity breeds boredom.  And part of the root of 'upgrade-itus'.  No matter how good the sound - we will over time become familiar with it.  Some people can find a satisfactory level of enjoyment at a certain point - some can not.  Either way the 'thrill' of experiencing a newly upgraded  SQ will never be the same over time.

 

So if your personality favors new and exciting things - you will likely never be long term satisfied with your system. In other words there is no 'Absolute Sound', only relative sound.  Like a drug addict - some folks will always need the next audio 'fix'.  Not that the 'fix' of a new improved gadget or piece of gear is not really producing better SQ. IT IS!  And the brain's pleasure centers love this - and want more.  The heart of audio nervousa.  The improvements are real not imagined - the question is when is enough?

 

Couple that with guys natural affection for gear - all kind of gear - from guns to boats.  You have the makings of a very satisfying hobby - but again some can actually be addicted to the rush of improved SQ and new gear.

[rickca]

31 minutes ago, rb2013 said:

Only our ears/brain/mind can do that, and does holistically.

I agree.  It's like saying that Alzheimer's or schizophrenia doesn't exist because we don't understand the disease process and mechanism.  We may be characterizing it incorrectly, but it certainly is real.  We can't treat it effectively because we don't know how to measure it.

[rb2013]

4 hours ago, crenca said:

 

The Scholastic's reduced ontology to a branch of metaphysics in the high middle ages.  It's all been downhill from there...

I hear...therefore I am...

 

An update to the philosophical debate on ontology to reflect modern quantum physics and relativity.  Good read:

By the late, noted Physicist Bernard d'Espagnat 'On Physics and Philosophy'.  Metaphysics meet the weirder world of Modern Quantum Physics...http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8329.html

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

This assumes a priori that there is in fact a problem with the USB connection.

 

Thanks for your questions.....

And thanks for replying to my post.

I tried hard to not call this a "problem" The USB bus is designed for many different types of devices. It's designed for two way communications between cameras, mice, keyboards, hard drives, and host of other devices & peripherals. In a way, - it performs (similarly to) pre-emptive multi-tasking. It is NOT designed for one purpose. It is not designed to output a consistent, clean, noise free, audio signal. (My apologies, I am not as good at explaining SI & the issues as John Swenson, & several others, here and elsewhere). So no, it is not an apriori assumption: under comparative analysis, regenerating the USB signal that is produced by 1 of the ports on the bus, *can* affect the signal & produce a cleaner signal that *some* components may take advantage of.

 

"Why must something designed for audio...."

It is good for what it is, - which is many things. The demands for both audio & video are higher than mice. Both Video & audio would IMPROVE if the USB bus was "re-configured" for a more singularly specific purpose.

 

 

[Albrecht]

18 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

To believe there aren't business models based on snake-oil products and profit making, is to stick your head in the sand and believe in Santa Claus.

I never said anything to the contrary. And I read no small amount of hyperbole & assumptions in that statement. There is no need to cite specific specific events. Two points.....

1. When events & products that are at best "ineffective" or "fraudulent" come out, - they are called out, dismissed, and/or denegrated pretty quickly. Because, - there are so many naysaying trumpeters out there, sitting on a fence, waiting to pounce like vultures.

2. The high-end audio industry is a TON better than the criminal capital consumerist market out there. Gucci handbags, the latest internet enabled juicer, and on and on.

[rb2013]

3 hours ago, Albrecht said:

Jabbr is right. This is a very toxic thread. I am reminded by Chris' wise words, no one is going to change anyone else's opinion here.

My frustration comes from the fact that the name of this site is "Computer Audiophile." So one would think that somewhere here, one would encounter an, guess what?, AUDIOPHILE. But to some, that word is synonymous with "liar."

However, to someone who has built up many, many, many, experiences with all different kinds of equipment, - it comes across as hostile envy. After all, how can you deny what someone has heard, (or not), if you were not there beside them?

Specifically with the IsoRegen: these products are NOT for the less-than-$1000 system owners. If one owns a $300 DAC & commensurate amps/speakers, - it's likely an "out of proportion" expense. Very few people purchase products out of context. Who buys $3000 speaker cables for $1500 speakers?

The Regen has its most notable affect with an USB bus on a multi-function computer. It is not the only product that has an affect on the USB signal. Any good investigation to determine effectiveness of a product is going to include listening tests. Mad speculation about how it sounds, based on some necessarily cursory measurement criteria, and not "tested" in the context from which it has been designed; is indeed a fool's errand. If one is listening to music through a 2005 laptop & Sharp boombox; (& there's nothing wrong with that), one really needs to recuse oneself from the conversation, as one is waaaaay out of scope.

Hey Friend - What's up?  You knew I would eventually chime in here - this thread was irresistible.

 

But to your point - and you know a bit of my 30yr history with audio...is that sometimes the cost of a piece of gear is nowhere near the SQ it can produce.  

 

My own experience with the Regen Amber was mixed - helped in my lessor office system, hurt in my main one.  I found the RuR better, as have many others.  And it's part of my USB/Ethernet chain.  

 

The 'discovery' of the Singxer F-1, as you know I was the first person to blog about the amazing Singxer DDC's on HF, showed what an 'inexpensive' well designed DDC could do.  After trying 20 or so other DDCs, like the PUC2 lite, Hydra Z, Gustard U12, Breeze DU-U8, etc...

 

The F-1 is still the heart of my complex 'Epitome' hybrid USB/Ethernet chain.  I probably have had more actual hands on experience with USB DDC's and gizmos then anyone on this site.  And my experience is that they can help, and I mean transform, even the best PC server sources.  The right ones in the right place - fed with ultra clean multi-stage regulated  linear power.

 

I have yet to hear a ISO Regen - and will wait until things get ironed out production and QC wise.  But I will try one at some point, if for nothing else as another reference point dot in my long experience.

 

I agree with you on the doubts regarding the test bench usefulness...you just got to try it and listen.

Cheers Mate!

[mansr]

1 minute ago, Albrecht said:

Thanks for your questions.....

And thanks for replying to my post.

I tried hard to not call this a "problem" The USB bus is designed for many different types of devices. It's designed for two way communications between cameras, mice, keyboards, hard drives, and host of other devices & peripherals. In a way, - it performs (similarly to) pre-emptive multi-tasking. It is NOT designed for one purpose. It is not designed to output a consistent, clean, noise free, audio signal. (My apologies, I am not as good at explaining SI & the issues as John Swenson, & several others, here and elsewhere). So no, it is not an apriori assumption: under comparative analysis, regenerating the USB signal that is produced by 1 of the ports on the bus, *can* affect the signal & produce a cleaner signal that *some* components may take advantage of.

 

"Why must something designed for audio...."

It is good for what it is, - which is many things. The demands for both audio & video are higher than mice. Both Video & audio would IMPROVE if the USB bus was "re-configured" for a more singularly specific purpose.

You state, correctly, that USB serves multiple purposes, and from this you conclude, without any supporting evidence, that it therefore must be bad for audio. This is the very definition of an a priori assumption.

[Albrecht]

Just now, mansr said:

You state, correctly, that USB serves multiple purposes, and from this you conclude, without any supporting evidence, that it therefore must be bad for audio. This is the very definition of an a priori assumption.

Nope....

I just cited supporting evidence. You may speculate that the evidence i cited wasn't "good enough for you"

But "good enough for you" does not mean "not-evidence" That evidence + other evidence has been great for all the people who have been enjoying the affects of the device, - and the countless similar devices out there.

 

Plus... see below   ...   (You can criticize this EVIDENCE, but it does not make it not evidence).

 

 

[Albrecht]

8 minutes ago, rb2013 said:

But to your point - and you know a bit of my 30yr history with audio...is that sometimes the cost of a piece of gear is nowhere near the SQ it can produce.  

Cheers Mate!

Cheers RB! Thanks...     Yeah... it's great when a cheaply priced component comes around that blows away the high priced ones!! Sure, - price isn't necessarily related to performance.

[mansr]

6 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Nope....

I just cited supporting evidence. You may speculate that the evidence i cited wasn't "good enough for you"

But "good enough for you" does not mean "not-evidence" That evidence + other evidence has been great for all the people who have been enjoying the affects of the device, - and the countless similar devices out there.

 

Plus... see below   ...   (You can criticize this EVIDENCE, but it does not make it not evidence).

 

 

That's a very long thread, so if you're referring to something other than the two eye patterns in the first post, you'll need to be more specific. Now regarding those eye patterns, first of all they are meaningless without also showing the keep-out regions. Secondly, there is only a conjecture that the pictured difference correlates whatsoever with any change in the audio output of the DAC.

[christopher3393]

2 hours ago, crenca said:

 

Wonderful Christopher3393!  Just read p. 46-49.  I like how he points out in his own way that Aristotle never escaped the earlier (Platonic) dialectic.  Realism (if it is to be a "beyond" the modern objectivist/realist dialectic) will have to escape the earlier dialectic in my opinion.  He appears to be claiming to do just that, so I will now have to read the whole paper...

 

Actually, you've read the ending of the first chapter of Beyond Objectivism and Relativism: Science, Hermeneutics, and Praxis. To try to demonstrate that this is relevant to meta-questions provoked by threads like this, and not just parlor games, I'll quote a little from the beginning of this chapter:

 

Quote

There is an uneasiness that has spread throughout intellectual and cultural life. It affects almost every discipline and every aspect of our lives. This uneasiness is expressed by the opposition between objectivism and relativism, but there are a variety of other contrasts that indicate the same underlying anxiety: rationality versus irrationality, objectivity versus subjectivity, realism versus antirealism. Contemporary thinking has moved between these and other, related extremes. Even the attempts that some have made to break out of this framework of thinking have all too frequently been assimilated to these standard oppositions.

 

There are, however, many signs that the deep assumptions, commitments, and metaphors that have shaped these oppositions, and from which they gain their seductive power, are being called into question. For along with the disquietude that is provoked by these extremes, there is a growing sense that something is wrong with the ways in which the relevant issues and options are posed--a sense that something is happening that is changing the categorial structure and patterns within which we think and act--a sense that we have an urgent need to move beyond objectivism and relativism.

 

 

[semente]

42 minutes ago, rickca said:

I agree.  It's like saying that Alzheimer's or schizophrenia doesn't exist because we don't understand the disease process and mechanism.  We may be characterizing it incorrectly, but it certainly is real.  We can't treat it effectively because we don't know how to measure it.

 

I see measurements as methods for the diagnose of shortcomings in audio equipment, just as for the diagnose of Alzheimer's you would probably use brain imaging.

 

 

In this case it looks as though some engineers, through an educated guess, are tackling potential problems in the USB connection but have yet to provide the measurements that can prove the existence of a disease and/or the effectiveness of the treatment.

 

R

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, semente said:

I see measurements as methods for the diagnose of shortcomings in audio equipment, just as for the diagnose of Alzheimer's you would probably use brain imaging.

 

In this case it looks as though some engineers, through an educated guess, are tackling potential problems in the USB connection but have yet to provide the measurements that can prove the existence of a disease and/or the effectiveness of the treatment.

Kind of like medieval medical practices. USB gizmos are the audio equivalent of leeches.

[Albrecht]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

 Now regarding those eye patterns, first of all they are meaningless without also showing the keep-out regions.

Hi,

No, they are not meaningless, - perhaps they would be MORE MEANINGFUL with the "keep-out" regions. But it's a straight up comparison that I trust that Alex did not "doctor." Taken with the preponderance of all the other evidence, - i don't see anything that would cause me to disagree much with the 95% on this one: especially for a product that is so cheap, and has a MBG. This level of trust is increased by the other products produced. The person that manufacturers my amplifier makes a whole line of products that all sound great for what they are, in the context through which they are intended. I feel great about calling him up on the phone and asking questions. Can't do that with a Sony.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, Albrecht said:

No, they are not meaningless, - perhaps they would be MORE MEANINGFUL with the "keep-out" regions. But it's a straight up comparison that I trust that Alex did not "doctor."

I don't believe the images are doctored. However, there is nothing to suggest that the "bad" one is problematic. If it showed a spec violation, that would be a different matter entirely.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Speed Racer said:

Filters....where is the roll eyes emoticon? Discrete filters are a waste of time in my opinion. You guys do what you want there.....

 

Well yeah, this is it exactly.  Folks get to try what interests them or they feel they like listening to - filters for me, Ethernet streamer for you - and we all get to have a good time chatting about it, hopefully.

[Jud]

25 minutes ago, mansr said:

Kind of like medieval medical practices. USB gizmos are the audio equivalent of leeches.

 

I believe leeches are now considered medically useful in some situations. 

[AJ Soundfield]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

I did, and liked the ISO Regen much better, but that was not blinded in any way, thus subject to potential non-random bias in favor of the ISO Regen.

Ok, thanks. That concludes it for me here regarding existence of objective data for this device.

[Ralf11]

8 hours ago, AJ Soundfield said:

Sound more like Jud is beta testing different versions of the device vs each other, rather than Regen vs no Regen

 

That's right.  But maybe one box was really "no Regen"?

 

Also, "the transience of echoic memory" is something he does not understand.

 

OTOH, while these 2 people doing some listening comparisons is not statistically valid, yada yada - it is still the best comparison out there right now.

[Daudio]

33 minutes ago, christopher3393 said:

To try to demonstrate that this is relevant to meta-questions provoked by threads like this

 

Gentlemen,

While I confess to following along with some interest to this digression, it is clearly Off Topic, and this is a confusing enough thread. Would you please start your own thread on this ?  TIA

 

-----------------------------------------------

While I'm at it, and this is directed to every poster, I am getting really tired of trying to read this thread and having to scroll over the same post, quoted in it's entirety, over and over and over again, or even just once ! It doesn't add anything, and makes it harder to get see what you have to say that's new.  I assume that most of you feel the same way, when you think about it

 

So please, try and get in the habit of selecting some relevant text in a post, and click on the little pop-up 'Quote This' button. It will start your reply with only that text, not the whole thing ! You can go back and do it again for other points, but the point is to minimize the useless 'noise' in your signal.. uhh.. post. Then you can write a nice long reply of your own, and have a better chance of your 'pearls of wisdom' being seen 

TIA

 

(or you can just punch the 'Quote' button under the post and select and delete the unnecessary quoted text. Many ways to the goal, choose yours...)