The true experimental tweak thread

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, Abtr said:

 

Well, IME with my (balanced) IT with floating secondary, it seems best to connect the power supplies of all gear that has an analogue audio output function and/or a digital audio clocking function to the isolation transformer (i.e., DAC, pre-amp, power-amp). All other (audio related) equipment (computer, streamer, etc.) should be isolated from the analogue gear as much as possible, maybe even with their own IT.

 

I'm currently experimenting with an Uptone iso Regen and its LPS-1 power supply. The combo sounds better when the Meanwell SMPS of the LPS-1 is *not* connected to the isolation transformer. So there may be a grey area of devices with which you'll have to experiment..

 

BTW, I didn't try the Gophert yet, but I intent to use it as a power supply for the LPS-1 or my laptop.  

 

IME a turntable should be connected to a IT with floating secondary. Otherwise powerful analogue devices such as active speakers and power amps are best used with IT with grounded secondary (for example Ultra IT or balanced IT with grounded secondary). Digital or semi-digital devices such as DAC, streamers, network switches, routers, wireless adapters/bridges etc works IME best with IT with floating secondary. Actually the power supplies to these devices improves a lot with PSUs with floating DC output as well (ie. dual floats). Keep table lights and battery chargers away from any IT. But of cource these things are best to experiment with in your own perticular setup! ?

 

Please do report back with your findings using a Gophert cps-3205II or C as a feeder supply for the LPS-1. This is exactly what I think will be a great combo, but the truth is in the eating, so your report would be truly appreciated! ?

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, Abtr said:

 

I currently use an Amplimo ZN1902S: https://www.toroidal-transformer.com/shop/high-end-audio/audio-safety-transformer/709/audio-scheidingstrafo-900va.html I have an Airlink BPS1502 coming: https://airlinktransformers.com/product/standard-balanced-power-supply-bps1502 

 

Airlink make great isolation transformers. BPS1502 is a really good choise. ?

[Cornan]

At last my family have gone to bed and I've got some quality time with my A setup. Listening to Zhu's album "Genesis Series". Wow, that is a well recorded album. The air, 3D, prescence and deeeeep bass performance is just breathtaking! That is what I love with my A setup right now. It always grants me with a nice surprise, like I never seems get use to how good it sounds even with 16bit/44,1kHz FLACs. You gotta love it! ?

 

http://tidal.com/album/53229800

 

[octaviars]

4 hours ago, Cornan said:

affects the impedance

 

There are no coils so the filter wont affect the impedance.

[Abtr]

16 hours ago, octaviars said:

 

There are no coils so the filter wont affect the impedance.

 

As per definition any AC filter increases AC impedance for specific frequencies.

[octaviars]

9 minutes ago, Abtr said:

specific frequencies

 

Yes but does XY-capacitors and varistors that only are in parallell to the signal also affect the impedance at 50Hz? I cant measure any difference in impedance before and after the filter with my Fluke installation tester.

[Abtr]

13 minutes ago, octaviars said:

Yes but does XY-capacitors and varistors that only are in parallell to the signal also affect the impedance at 50Hz? I cant measure any difference in impedance before and after the filter with my Fluke installation tester.

 

It's not about 50Hz impedance. The impedance for high frequency noise from noisy power supplies in your system will increase. See e.g. this thread:

 

[octaviars]

38 minutes ago, Abtr said:

The impedance for high frequency noise from noisy power supplies in your system will increase. See e.g. this thread:

 

Yes I get that but are you just refering to a transformer that have higher impedance for higher frequenzy? I talk about capacitors and varistors not a transformer.

 

[Abtr]

19 minutes ago, octaviars said:

Yes I get that but are you just refering to a transformer that have higher impedance for higher frequenzy? I talk about capacitors and varistors not a transformer.

 

 

The impedance for high frequency noise from noisy power supplies *within* your audio system will increase. According to John Swenson (and I concur), that causes audible degradation of sound. It's better to have common mode AC noise loops with low impedance than high impedance ones. 

[Cornan]

Today I finally got my acts together and changed the good quality DC cable between my Voltcraft 1134 and my main router to a DIY Canare 4S6 DC cable. I have avoided it since I had loads of zip locks around all the cables at the router & TV end due to WAF. Here is the result roughly an hour later (normally takes 5 minutes in other spots).

 

 

Listening to Zhu's album "Genesis Series" again since it is still in my audioble memory. Wow, definately longer decays, a firmer low end bass and even more relaxing listen than before. I love starquads! ?

 

I got the first 3D graphics of my coming 200VA balanced isolation transformer from Alex. It will be 200x170x70mm as is. If the light bulb is placed on the sides it might even come down to 170x170x70mm. Pretty convenient size! Now he is just waiting for the transformer to arrive to make the final adjustments, order the chassi and start putting it together. My starquad USB cable and starquad power cable is already done. ?

 

[Cornan]

I have been obsessed to find a Audioplan PowerStar III second hand to use pre my Peaktech 2240 floating IT. The Germain dealer have promised me to try to his best to find one and will come back to me within a week or so (when the Audioplan boss is back from vacation) if they have demo unit available. Still, I am expecting a negative answer. But it just strucked me looking at the 3D images of the balanced IT that I might have a brilliant backup plan. If the Germain dealer cannot find the PowerStar III second hand I will ask Alex at ATL Hi-Fi if he might be able to build a starwired powerstrip with a ground lug and his starquad power cable as output cable. He might even be able to use internal starquads as well? I cannot hurt to ask him for a quotation atleast! ? Hmmm??

[agladstone]

@Cornan What are you going to do with yourself once you finally get your system perfected ?

[mozes]

4 hours ago, Cornan said:

I have been obsessed to find a Audioplan PowerStar III second hand to use pre my Peaktech 2240 floating IT. The Germain dealer have promised me to try to his best to find one and will come back to me within a week or so (when the Audioplan boss is back from vacation) if they have demo unit available. Still, I am expecting a negative answer. But it just strucked me looking at the 3D images of the balanced IT that I might have a brilliant backup plan. If the Germain dealer cannot find the PowerStar III second hand I will ask Alex at ATL Hi-Fi if he might be able to build a starwired powerstrip with a ground lug and his starquad power cable as output cable. He might even be able to use internal starquads as well? I cannot hurt to ask him for a quotation atleast! ? Hmmm??

You need something like like this

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/power-distribution/#!/Statement-SE-Power-Distribution/p/35282488/category=2595838

This is pricey but you can get something similar built for far less as you don't need all the exotic occ copper and fancy receptacles. 

[agladstone]

That Yalu Bulula thing mentioned in the details about that power distributor looks pretty cool and seems reasonably priced too!  

[Cornan]

5 hours ago, agladstone said:

@Cornan What are you going to do with yourself once you finally get your system perfected ?

 

Hopefully start exploring my huge music selection. I guess I'll need to survive until I am 120 years old to catch up! ? Luckily you'll never be too old for this hobby. ?

 

[Cornan]

3 hours ago, mozes said:

You need something like like this

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/power-distribution/#!/Statement-SE-Power-Distribution/p/35282488/category=2595838

This is pricey but you can get something similar built for far less as you don't need all the exotic occ copper and fancy receptacles. 

 

Thanks Moussa! 

I sent a e-mail to Alex yesturday. He wants me to pin down in details what I want. Here is a couple of powerstrips that he have made in the past.

 

 

Not too bad! ?

I will start by making a simple drawing to Alex to give him a better idea what I want to achieve. I just want a simple starwired and starquad powerstrip with a separate ground lug and short in-line 30cm starquad power inlet cable pre my Peaktech 2240. ?

 

[Cornan]

2 hours ago, agladstone said:

That Yalu Bulula thing mentioned in the details about that power distributor looks pretty cool and seems reasonably priced too!  

 

My only problem with the Yalu Bukula is that it's a surge suppressor. Not something I want close to a isolation transformer with floating secondary. It will affect impedance negatively according to JS. 

[octaviars]

29 minutes ago, Cornan said:

It will affect impedance negatively according to JS. 

 

Is that surge surpressor a MOV?

 

When I talk about impedance in a electrical circuit and measure, it is all the cables and connections all the way back to the transformer.

 

Perhaps it is just me geting a bit confused, I get that a MOV will introduce noise as it clamps down higher voltage but not that it will affect what I call impedance in a regular electrical circuit as it is parallell to to circuit.

 

If I measure impedance between L-PE or L-N how will a surge protector affect this or are we just talking about different things  that this impedance is just at higher frequency? 

 

I am sorry if my questions is stupid but there are so many threads here and so many different suggestion how to make it right that it is hard to know what is right. 

 

[Cornan]

49 minutes ago, octaviars said:

 

Is that surge surpressor a MOV?

 

When I talk about impedance in a electrical circuit and measure, it is all the cables and connections all the way back to the transformer.

 

Perhaps it is just me geting a bit confused, I get that a MOV will introduce noise as it clamps down higher voltage but not that it will affect what I call impedance in a regular electrical circuit as it is parallell to to circuit.

 

If I measure impedance between L-PE or L-N how will a surge protector affect this or are we just talking about different things  that this impedance is just at higher frequency? 

 

I am sorry if my questions is stupid but there are so many threads here and so many different suggestion how to make it right that it is hard to know what is right. 

 

 

To be honest I classify all surge surpressors as a MOV and I just avoid them. With that said I for example use a Hugo power strip with surge protection in my B setup pre a Ultra IT and honestly could´nt hear any significant differences for the worse vs a simple good quality powerstrip post my Perfect Power. However, the impedance issue is tightly connected to the use of a isolation transformer with floating secondary and low inter-winding capacitance. AFAIK with higher impedance the low resistance between the PRI and SEC will be great dealing with common-mode noise. If the impedance is increased the same IT will have difficulties doing that job properly.

 

I am not an expert in different filter solutions and how they affect impedance. I just classify all filters as bad post a floating isolation transformer with low inter-winding capasitance just to be an the safe side. That is why I did recommend you to give it a try both with and without those filters. Experimenting with your ears as guidance is always the best way to know for sure. However, I cannot see any problems using a filter solution pre a floating IT since they will help to reduce the common-mode noise before it enters the floating IT. Just be sure to use shortest possible cables.

 

In short. Using power filters or MOVs POST a floating isolations transformers with low-interwinding capasitance COULD affect its abillity to deal with common-mode noise negatively. Infact even the lenght of the power cables affects the impedance negatively. Using filters pre a floating IT is a different story. To play safe I classify all surge surpressors as MOVs and all filters as bad post a floating IT. If you know for a fact that a filter does´nt create a unneccessary impedance load towards the floating IT do use it, but experiment with and without it and use your ears as guidance.

 

BTW. It was not all at all a stupid question! We are all here on CA to learn from others and to give something back. Without this forum I would´nt be anywhere close to where I am today. The way I see it you seem to be very knowledable already!

 

 

 

 

 

[octaviars]

Ok @Cornan now we are on the same page I talked about a system without a IT and the use of MOV:s and so on and now I understand that you are refering to using MOV:s and other filter after a IT and that is of course not a good thing.

 

But if your electronics have a Shurter filter and you have this connected to the powerstrip after the IT would not all the benefits be gone? Many things today do have some sort of filter built in it from the maker to cope with how much crap they send backwords.

 

Another thing that crossed my mind is the IT how it is best to use it? I know Topaz have the secondary neutrual connected to earth but then many others like the Amplino that @Abtr linked to in a earlier post lookes like it is built to be used as a balanced IT but it could as I asume be used as a regular 230V/230V and with one leg connected to earth. Many different solutions to choose from.

 

Regarding the Amplino IT do they spec the winding to winding capacitance? I cant finnd any info and as I understand the capacitance is the most imprtant thing regarding rejecting noise.

 

Today I have a star connected Ansuz powerstrip and plan to connect all of the equipment to that but this IT solutions got me thinking and I have no problem building a cabinet to house a IT besides the small cabinet I have today where my cable comes in to the rack. Main question right now will a 900VA amplino be a good starting point and what way is the best way to connect it?

 

Both my upcomming CD/DAC/PRE (one box) and amplifier have no earth connection (dubbelisolated) if that will affect what path to choose.

 

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, octaviars said:

But if your electronics have a Shurter filter and you have this connected to the powerstrip after the IT would not all the benefits be gone? Many things today do have some sort of filter built in it from the maker to cope with how much crap they send backwords.

 

Yes, it will defeat the purpose using atleast a IT with floating secondary and low inter-winding capasitance. This is the whole reason why I have asked ALT Hi-Fi for a quotation for a starwired powerstrip without filters or MOVs, internal starquad wiring and short in-line starquad power cable. BTW here is my very simple drawing of how I want it to look. Please note that this discussion is far from finalized.

 

 

1 hour ago, octaviars said:

Another thing that crossed my mind is the IT how it is best to use it? I know Topaz have the secondary neutrual connected to earth but then many others like the Amplino that @Abtr linked to in a earlier post lookes like it is built to be used as a balanced IT but it could as I asume be used as a regular 230V/230V and with one leg connected to earth. Many different solutions to choose from.

 

Well, there is many views on that perticular subject. Many people (and studios) are using balanced ITs with grounded secondary. According to Alex at ALT Hi-Fi it is the best IT there is IF it is connected to a decicated ground receptacle (=expensive). If you do not have a dedicated ground receptacle or cannot do it or afford it you´re most likely best off using a floating IT. @Abtr have convinced me to try a balanced IT as he thinks that it sounds best when floating. The one I have on order will be possible to switch between grounded and floating secondary. For me it remains to be heard if it will beat my Peaktech 2240 which is a floating but unbalanced IT, but I am quite sure that a floating balanced IT will be better. Another way to make a floating unbalanced IT into a balanced floating IT is to use a ac main voltage regulator pre a floating IT. If you move back this thread you´ll see that I recently tried a cheap BlueWalker PowerWalker 1200VA (309kr från komplett.se) with great results. 

 

1 hour ago, octaviars said:

Regarding the Amplino IT do they spec the winding to winding capacitance? I cant finnd any info and as I understand the capacitance is the most imprtant thing regarding rejecting noise.

 

The best way to know is to e-mail to their support. Not intirely sure they will reveil the specs, but it is worth a shot.  I am not familiar with the Amplino IT myself.

 

1 hour ago, octaviars said:

Today I have a star connected Ansuz powerstrip and plan to connect all of the equipment to that but this IT solutions got me thinking and I have no problem building a cabinet to house a IT besides the small cabinet I have today where my cable comes in to the rack. Main question right now will a 900VA amplino be a good starting point and what way is the best way to connect it?

 

You´ll need to measure it using a kill-a-watt or similar. Remember that a IT should have atleast +50% VA overhead (60% is perfect) to perform optimal. 900VA sound too small for a whole house. Something in the 1,5kVA range should be sufficiant, but as said it is best to measure.

 

1 hour ago, octaviars said:

Both my upcomming CD/DAC/PRE (one box) and amplifier have no earth connection (dubbelisolated) if that will affect what path to choose.

 

It probably will. Still, personally I would connect a dubbelisolated earth connection to a floating IT. In my experiments dual floats are very beneficial to SQ.

[John769]

Those Gophert SMPS's are on sale for a couple of days:

 

https://www.banggood.com/GOPHERT-CPS-3205-0-32V-0-5A-Portable-Adjustable-DC-Power-Supply-110V220V-p-934530.html?rmmds=myorder

[Cornan]

9 minutes ago, John769 said:

Those Gophert SMPS's are on sale for a couple of days:

 

https://www.banggood.com/GOPHERT-CPS-3205-0-32V-0-5A-Portable-Adjustable-DC-Power-Supply-110V220V-p-934530.html?rmmds=myorder

 

Thanks for sharing! Strange, I should really get a notification when they lower the price on Banggood, but I did´nt get it this time. Maybe they think I got enough?

Anyway, it is time to order my fifth one! 

Update: Ordered! 

 

[mozes]

7 hours ago, Cornan said:

 

Thanks Moussa! 

I sent a e-mail to Alex yesturday. He wants me to pin down in details what I want. Here is a couple of powerstrips that he have made in the past.

 

 

Not too bad! ?

I will start by making a simple drawing to Alex to give him a better idea what I want to achieve. I just want a simple starwired and starquad powerstrip with a separate ground lug and short in-line 30cm starquad power inlet cable pre my Peaktech 2240. ?

 

They look good, Alex is a great guy to deal with. 

[octaviars]

1 hour ago, Cornan said:

Anyway, it is time to order my fifth one! 

Update: Ordered! 

 

Also ordered one ?