A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[mourip]

9 hours ago, lmitche said:

Yeh, it can't be any good at this price. 😁

 

The trick is to use cpu direct USB ports.

 

How does one determine that a USB port is "CPU direct"?

Thanks!

[mourip]

Thanks @vhs. Looks like a well thought out system.

[mourip]

11 hours ago, shahed99 said:

Connecting Audiophile switches like SoTM or ER with the router - is everyone using SFP port lately as oppose to Ethernet cable?

 

I am using ethernet from my LAN switch to my ER. In the past I have found ethernet sounded better in my system than when I used FMC's to connect my switch directly to my server or from my server to my endpoint.

 

My ER has about 100 hours of music on it and has now moved from being a worthwhile addition to being remarkable.

 

A few of you may remember old analog CRT based TVs with a gross and a fine tuning nob. Adding the ER is like finally getting the tuning just right. All of the sudden you are hearing what was really there all along. I am no longer listening to the system, just engaged in the music. That is about the highest praise I can offer.

[mourip]

A couple of years ago when I was using a Focusrite Rednet D16 I removed the internal SMPS and put in two LT3045-A Ultra Low Noise LDO Voltage Regulator boards from ldovr.com. They were daisy chained to go from 7.5v-in to 6v to 5v-out for a minimum of voltage drop per regulator for low heat dissipation. It worked great and for some might be a less expensive and "in-stock" partial DIY solution, especial if you want to replace an internal SMPS. You also need to keep track of the current requirement of your device so you can pick the right boards. Bare boards are available up to 1.5A and are usually in-stock .

[mourip]

4 hours ago, romaz said:

Ultimately, with fiber, YMMV.

 

Every time I have introduced/re-introduced fiber into my system in any of a number of possible positions I end up removing it. To be clear I have not tested some of the more advanced fiber options but I just prefer copper ethernet. The combination of the JCAT FEMTO card in my server and the ER set up as recommended has given me the best sound yet. Very natural and realistic sound to my ears.

[mourip]

11 hours ago, austinpop said:

I started to write about how I had seesawed at least twice between distributed and standalone topologies, then thought it would be fun to create a chronology of my journey. Maybe this will become the seed of an article at some point. But anyway, for your amusement and edification, here is a chronology of my 10-year journey in computer audio streaming.

 

Note: for simplicity, I focused on topology, so this doesn't address all the other improvements and tweaks to get better SQ.

 

Keep in mind that there is an implied increase in SQ as you go from top to bottom. This core question is what has driven me throughout: what's the next step to better SQ? I started my journey firmly believing in the distributed model being superior. Over time, I learned to shed my dogmas, and just follow my ears.

 

Time Period	Music Storage	Music Server (HW/SW)	Music Endpoint (HW/SW)	Standalone Player (HW/SW)	Control (HW/SW)
2010-2015	Synology NAS	Synology NAS/LMS	Squeezebox Touch		IOS/iPeng
2016-2017	Synology NAS	Synology NAS/MinimServer	Aries Mini/Lightning		iOS/Lighning DS
2017	Synology NAS	Desktop/W10, Roon Core	Aries Mini/Roon		iOS/Roon
2017	Synology NAS	Desktop/W10, Roon Core	sMS-200/Roon		iOS/Roon
2017	Synology NAS	Desktop/W10, Roon Core	SOtM trifecta (switch, sMS, tX)/Roon		iOS/Roon
2018	Local on SE			ZENith SE/Roon, Roon+SL	iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	Desktop/W10, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato/AL, Roon		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	Desktop/AL, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato/AL, Roon		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	Desktop/AL, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato+SOtM clock mods/AL, Roon		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	Desktop/AL, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato+SOtM clock mods/AL, Squeezelite		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	i7-8700T/AL, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato+SOtM clock mods/AL, Squeezelite		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	i7-8700T/Euphony OS, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato+SOtM clock mods/Euphony OS, Squeezelite		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS	i7-8700T/Euphony OS, Roon Core	NUC7i7DNBE+Plato+SOtM clock mods/Euphony OS, StylusEP		iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS			i7-8700T/Euphony OS, Roon+SL	iOS/Roon
2019	Synology NAS			i7-8700T/Euphony OS, Roon+StylusEP	iOS/Roon
2019-2020	Synology NAS			i7-8700T/Euphony OS, Stylus	iOS/Stylus
2020	Synology NAS			i7-8700K/Euphony OS, Stylus	iOS/Stylus

Glossary:

 

Desktop: Vanilla Dell Desktop system

AL: AudioLinux

SL: Squeezelite

W10: Windows 10

LMS: Logitech Media Server

i7-xxxx: custom servers using xxxx processor

 

This is excellent, and as you said, goes against some commonly help beliefs. It is often hard to go against the current here and just follow your ears. The most impossible choice for me is to just say "Wow. This can't get any better!" ...and then just listen to music 🙂

 

One thing that really stands out is that you have nearly always stayed with a NAS for storage. Any ideas why this would consistently sound better than a local drive? Probably the only thing that I have never tried was a single box plus NAS setup.

 

Great post...

 

 

[mourip]

33 minutes ago, John769 said:

geez, sad news 😰

 

I believe that he actually passed in April last year. He had some great ideas ...and strong ones! 🙂

 

I used to follow him on Head-Fi, first for his USB tweaks then continuing on to audio over ethernet (AOIP)

[mourip]

Sweet. Nice to see these DIY "Howto" posts showing up again.

[mourip]

1 hour ago, dminches said:

I am in the camp that doesn't feel that Roon has killed the sound.  There are so many moving parts with digital music that any change to software can cause audible differences.  My understanding is that Taiko made modifications to various Windows OS settings to compensate.  I don't own an Extreme so this is just speculation.

 

What is ironic is that for many years people viewed digital music and a convenient, plug and play experience.  While that may be true for some, it is way more complicated than analog music based on my experiences with computer hardware, power supplies, network hardware and software.  Every settings can make an audible difference.

 

 

I agree about Roon. I think that for most true audiophile systems it can give top end performance. Combined with Qobuz it is a gift.

 

While I find the Taiko discussions interesting , given that it costs more than most true audiophiles spend for their whole system I think that it probably lives on a very flat section of the price/performance curve.

 

I look forward to a bit of trickle-down tech for the rest of us. Learning of tweaks to Roon would be nice.

[mourip]

18 hours ago, Peter Avgeris said:

You can read my post earlier regarding Roon.

I had purchased the lifetime license around 4 years ago. It was the best software around, both in aesthetics & sound quality.

Reality is unfortunately very far away from what you are thinking of... Roon now provides mediocre performance. It is worse than almost all software around.

I sold my lifetime license around one month ago for the price I paid. The buyer and I, are both happy. I tried it against everything, it is worse than everything I tried. Hope this tells something to you.

 

Being a pro in the field, I need to reassure you that Taiko server cost does not lie in the flat section of the ratio as you claim. It is dedicated to these people that want the very best of the best. Nothing compares to it. When you are seeking for the very best that is nowadays possible, this is it. By far. Something that is widely regarded as the 'creme de la creme' cannot be put anywhere on the cost/performance curve. It is totally outside from this curve.

 

Just my two cents...

 

Thanks for identifying yourself as an industry participant in your signature. When I tried to go to your web page I got an error: "Unreachable IP". Can you re-post the link or share something about your professional audio life? As a "Pro" What exactly do you do or sell? I assume that you have no affiliation with Taiko or sell/develop your own audio software or hardware? Also your profile has no details regarding your own system. It would help us gain context for your expertise and opinions if you can tell us a bit about your own listening environment. Transparency is good here for industry participants.

 

Everyone has an opinion regarding sound quality and also what they are willing to pay for or can be satisfied with. I do miss the glory days of AS(CA) when we had a flood of fresh ideas about how to improve systems that could be afforded by 99% of audiophiles. Perhaps this is a sign that great sound can now be had for an affordable price and a bit of careful research.

 

BTW. I never said that Roon was the best out there. It is my personal opinion that it has very good sound plus remarkable utility and convenience for most audiophiles who do not have an unlimited budget and do not have DIY skills. Previously I got great sound using JRMC in conjunction with AOIP/Rednet but bailed on it when I found the Rednet software to drop connections regularly. I use Windows 2019 for my server and AO for my endpoint. Works exceedingly well. Could I do better? Possibly/probably...

 

I assume that you bought Roon before the large "Lifetime" price increase and then passed on a savings to the buyer?

[mourip]

11 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

Taiko came up with an update that makes Roon sound great again. That happened just a couple of days ago. Did you miss that? Check the Taiko thread on WBF. That's the upgrade I was referring to, not their new player. 

Get yours updated if you haven't and let us know what you think. Everyone is raving about it.  There is a calendar you can book an appointment, so they can connect to your Extreme and apply the changes. You can probably book 10 minutes for tomorrow. I think Sunday was available... 

 

Well this is certainly encouraging. If tweaking the server OS brought magic back to the Taiko system then it seems as if magic does reside in Roon (or they have returned it) so we just need to understand what in our own systems can enable/uncover it (assuming we were dissatisfied with it). For many years I have used Audiophile Optimizer on my music servers. Perhaps that is why I have not found Roon lacking. I also need to admit that since adding the EtherRegen to my system I have lost a lot of interest in the "thrill of the chase". The music just sounds good to me. Guilty.

 

I am certainly curious what tweaks or re-configuring was involved to bring the Taiko up to grade. This could benefit the other 99.9% of us.

 

[mourip]

45 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Have you looked into the possibility of replacing the gateway from your ISP with an ARRIS SB8200 modem and Ubiquiti EdgeRouter?  Have you turned off wifi on your router and connected your access points to the router with fiber?  VLANs provide additional small benefits.  These are inexpensive, high value tweaks documented by Nenon and confirmed by many others.

 

I have been here over 10 years and have benefited from a ton of innovation. I check in almost daily to see if something interesting has popped up. I have already gone down the fiber route and did not find it to sound better in my system. Did you have reason to believe that I had not tried it? I am a network engineer by profession and usually watch for network related tweaks with interest.

 

When I find albums on Qobuz that I like I cache them on my server which is isolated from my Roon endpoint by an EtherRegen so few files actually stream through my ISP and LAN. I do not use Wi-fi for audio. I learned about that years ago here. My audio chain is well isolated by a large isolation transformer with power coming to a single unfiltered power strip per John Swenson to form a "clean side". Only one audio device is not powered by an LPS but that was designed by David Berning who knows his stuff. See my profile if interested.

 

Basically I look over AS and try what to me seems promising. I am certain that others may benefit from some tweaks that I dismiss but I am really happy with the sound I am getting now. I am grateful for all of the help that I have received from others here over the years and I try to offer help when I can. I did not say that there is no innovation on AS these days, just that I am not seeing as many true break-though advances as previously. I see the curve flattening which means that we have all done good work.

 

Regarding the comment I made about Taiko. I am absolutely certain that it sounds great and if inserted into my own system would bring better sound but I will wait until details emerge regarding how to integrate the ideas found in it's construction into my own dedicated server which is already using many tweaks learned here, some from Chris's original ground breaking series on building dedicated audio servers.

 

I spoke to one long-time member today who has promoted many excellent ideas here. He felt that his system now sounded so good that he was mostly inclined to listen to music. I feel the same way.

 

YMMV.

 

[mourip]

18 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

I simply asked you a polite question and offered a few suggestions that could potentially be appealing.  I have no reason to know your profession or what you read or anything about your audio system.  I was merely trying to be helpful.  I'll refrain from doing so in the future.

 

Sorry. I guess that I was projecting. I thought that you were defending against my idea that there was not much innovation on AS these days.

 

I sincerely apologize. I have too much time at home with my keyboard.

[mourip]

3 hours ago, Ricardo007 said:

I have trouble finding industrial RAM

I could buy from SOS electronic at a good price 2 pcs of 4GB RAM Apacer industrial DDR3 SODIMM 1,35V (75.B93E2.G040B) for the server part of my double PC. But impossible to find 2 pcs of équivalent 2Gb RAM (75.A83E2.G030B) for the player part. No stock seems available anywhere which looks strange to me unless it is discontinued parts but they were marketed since 2017 only!

Is there any alternative?

I was able to find Apacer memory on eBay that worked for one of my endpoints and also my music server, both of which use the same system board. These were pulls but have run perfectly for months and were MUCH cheaper than any of the sources for new stock.

[mourip]

13 hours ago, Ricardo007 said:

Thanks MOURIP which référence did you look for? Is it industrial ones?

I am pretty sure that I used a part number that someone had posted here that seemed likely to work with my 3 year old system board that uses older DDR3 non-ECC memory. It does work without any issues however I cannot say that it improved sound quality in a noticeable way.

[mourip]

7 minutes ago, Exocer said:

 

Just stepping away from vibration control for a moment.

 

I have purchased the Ghent Linkway CAT8 JSSG360 cable and have used it for the last several days. It is superior to the AQ Cinnamon and CableMatters CAT8. The presentation seems smoother and more balanced, with slightly improved dynamics over the CM 8/Monoprice Cat8 in my system. It highlights some flaws with the CM 8 IMHO, in the upper frequencies.

 

I will probably try other more expensive options in the future but this Ghent cable is staying in my chain in some capacity for a very long time. I will probably pick up another one.

 

 

I tried the Ghent ethernet cable last year to use between my endpoint and ER. To be honest I probably did not leave it in long enough to break in. I pulled it out rather quickly and used it upstream to put some hours on it. I have not retried it yet.

 

More to the point. I found it to be remarkably stiff and thick especially in a short length, so much so that I could only use it by turning my ER upside down with a very heavy weight on it. It was a bit like the tail wagging the dog. I recommend either not buying a very short length or else specifying connector types and orientation that will allow it to work easily in your system.

 

Ghent is great to work with and I love the JSSG360 USB cables he has made for me.

 

Glad to hear that it improved your SQ!

[mourip]

16 hours ago, barrows said:

I find it interesting that you like this USB cable, what might you have compared it with?  I ask because it appears Ghent makes this cable with wire not designed for USB, and which does not meet the USB impedance specification.

 

Supra, Wire World Ultraviolet, AudioQuest Cinnamon, Blue Jeans USB. Mostly "bang-for-the-buck" cables.

 

All that I can really say is that I like it in my system and that it sounds better to me than those that preceded it. It is easily possible that other wire used in their configuration might sound better. To be honest I have stepped off of the treadmill for a while and am mostly just doing listening. 

[mourip]

On 7/28/2020 at 5:12 AM, sunny_time_99 said:

For my personal taste the ER is too warm. Heat reduces the Lifetime of the internal Capacitors. If this will be a Problem or not - we will find out in a few years. The ER Case Looks nice - of cause. 

 

Assuming that you own an ER. Have you had any problems related to heat with your own unit?

[mourip]

19 hours ago, Bliman said:

Is this thread also to help to build a good sort of mini pc from scratch for the best quality for the lowest cost?

 

We started out with many posts for great tweaks that were not necessarily expensive and nearly always remarkably useful. It was Spring Time! The thread has definitely moved in a new direction. I would liken it to our space program. It can be argued that the program has produced many discoveries that have trickled down to help tax payers in everyday life but it is very, very expensive.

 

Perhaps that will eventually happen again here...

 

You may need to look at either earlier posts in the thread or at some of Chris's seminal posts for dedicated audio PC's. Those servers were a bargain by current standards and still work great.