SACD Ripping using an Oppo or Pioneer? Yes, it's true!

[miguelito]

14 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Which method are you referring to?

There's the method of getting the ISO ripped on a PS3 then using ISO2DSD to get DSF files.

 

Then there's this method of using a DVD player with software loaded on a USB key, etc. Someone suggested that this method does not render proper DSD files. I would venture this renders the same as the above, but wondering if there's a difference. 

[Ramuk]

Hi Miguelito,

 

I have used both process, I think you mean Blu ray rather than DVD from your description. This will be covered at the beginning of this forum: OPPO/Pioneer/Sony. There are size limitations to the PS3 method that sometimes split the DSDISO into two. 

 

I have found both methods produce similar results.

[greynolds]

23 minutes ago, miguelito said:

There's the method of getting the ISO ripped on a PS3 then using ISO2DSD to get DSF files.

 

Then there's this method of using a DVD player with software loaded on a USB key, etc. Someone suggested that this method does not render proper DSD files. I would venture this renders the same as the above, but wondering if there's a difference. 

Both approaches (using a PS3 or using one of the supported Bluray players as described in this thread) will give you an identical ISO file.  Both approaches can also split the ISO up into individual DSF files either during the ripping process or after the ISO has been saved.

 

There have been a few minor issues with extracting the DSF files over the years that can result in a pop at the start or end of a track, but the rest of the content is fine.  To the best of my knowledge, these issues apply equally to using a PS3 or using the method this thread covers.

 

Strictly speaking, the ripping process is about getting the ISO file onto a computer so you can do what you want with it.  Both approaches work well for this, but SACD capable PS3's are getting more and more scarce, while there's still a pretty good supply of Bluray players that can be used.

[Kal Rubinson]

4 hours ago, miguelito said:

Then there's this method of using a DVD player with software loaded on a USB key, etc. Someone suggested that this method does not render proper DSD files. I would venture this renders the same as the above, but wondering if there's a difference. 

There is not likely to be any difference between the methods, themselves, because they all rely on the same program, sacd_extract.exe, to do the extraction.  However, there may be differences if they use different versions of sacd_extract.exe.  There are many.

[BlueSkyy]

4 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

There is not likely to be any difference between the methods, themselves, because they all rely on the same program, sacd_extract.exe, to do the extraction.  However, there may be differences if they use different versions of sacd_extract.exe.  There are many.

Hi Kal and thanks.  So this means or implies, at least to me, that different versions of sacd_extract.exe "manipulate" the bits that come off a specific disc differently or did I misunderstand you?  Is there a "best" version of sacd_extract.exe that is considered "the most accurate"?  Please let us know.

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, BlueSkyy said:

Hi Kal and thanks.  So this means or implies, at least to me, that different versions of sacd_extract.exe "manipulate" the bits that come off a specific disc differently or did I misunderstand you?  Is there a "best" version of sacd_extract.exe that is considered "the most accurate"?  Please let us know.

I would not use the word "manipulate."  They all are designed to simply extract the SACD data to ISO and/or to extract the DSD from the ISO.  However, the earliest ones had faults in how the output was packaged leading to noises on track transitions.  My preference is to use the SACDExtractGUI method with the latest compatible versions of sacd_extract.exe.

[BlueSkyy]

1 minute ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I would not use the word "manipulate."  They all are designed to simply extract the SACD data to ISO and/or to extract the DSD from the ISO.  However, the earliest ones had faults in how the output was packaged leading to noises on track transitions.  My preference is to use the SACDExtractGUI method with the latest compatible versions of sacd_extract.exe.

Thanks.  Poor choice of words on my part.  I'll follow your advice of course.

[miguelito]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:19 AM, Kal Rubinson said:

There is not likely to be any difference between the methods, themselves, because they all rely on the same program, sacd_extract.exe, to do the extraction.  However, there may be differences if they use different versions of sacd_extract.exe.  There are many.

Interesting. I compared the SACD rip of Coltrane's A Love Supreme (using my trusty ole PS3) with the DSD download using MusicScope and they look identical.

 

Which brings up the question: What are the methods to compare bit by bit?

[Kal Rubinson]

2 hours ago, miguelito said:

Interesting. I compared the SACD rip of Coltrane's A Love Supreme (using my trusty ole PS3) with the DSD download using MusicScope and they look identical.

 

Which brings up the question: What are the methods to compare bit by bit?

One can use your "my trusty ole PS3" with any one of many versions of sacd_extract and, although I am unfamliar with MusicScope, it may have employed a similar version of sacd_extract.  That said, the differences are mainly in how the versions operate and "should" result in identical results.

[miguelito]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

One can use your "my trusty ole PS3" with any one of many versions of sacd_extract and, although I am unfamliar with MusicScope, it may have employed a similar version of sacd_extract.  That said, the differences are mainly in how the versions operate and "should" result in identical results.

So to clarify, I purchased and set up a Sony PS3 in 2014 to rip SACDs and have not changed sacd_extract ever since.

 

MusicScope is a mac spectrum analysis software that does what I show below.

 

As you can see, the DSD download and SACD rip look identical (save for a slightly different durations), whereas the SACD rip from an older release looks upsampled.

 

My question is: How do I compare bit-for-bit these two files? 

 

1) DSD download of Analogue Productions release by Kevin Gray:

 

 

2) SACD ISO rip into DSF file using ISO2DSD (same release):

 

 

3) SACD rip of a previous release (not AP's):

 

 

 

[BlueSkyy]

Good question.  Run a checksum somehow?

[miguelito]

1 hour ago, BlueSkyy said:

Good question.  Run a checksum somehow?

That doesn't really work as I know the files to be different, one of them is slightly longer. Which doesn't mean that the actual musical data is not identical. So I would like to be able to compare bit by bit, but that requires "aligning" the two streams.

[BlueSkyy]

18 minutes ago, miguelito said:

That doesn't really work as I know the files to be different, one of them is slightly longer. Which doesn't mean that the actual musical data is not identical. So I would like to be able to compare bit by bit, but that requires "aligning" the two streams.

Good to know.  Thanks.

[Kal Rubinson]

11 hours ago, miguelito said:

My question is: How do I compare bit-for-bit these two files? 

I do not know but why presume that, aside from slight difference in duration, there is a difference in the audio content? 

 

I raised this point about sacd_extract.exe when someone inquired about different ripping methods.  All the popular consumer-level methods are really user interfaces for implementing sacd_extract.exe.  Any significant differences in the output would not depend on the "method," i.e., user interface, but whether there significant differences in the version of sacd_extract.exe.  In my personal experience, there are no audible differences aside from the handling of track transitions.  

[tngiloy]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:28 AM, Kal Rubinson said:

I would not use the word "manipulate."  They all are designed to simply extract the SACD data to ISO and/or to extract the DSD from the ISO.  However, the earliest ones had faults in how the output was packaged leading to noises on track transitions.  My preference is to use the SACDExtractGUI method with the latest compatible versions of sacd_extract.exe.

Please excuse my ignorance. I have been using the methods (and files) from this thread for years with these files on my thumbdrive with my Oppo 103D.

Is there newer/better firmware I should be using?

[Kal Rubinson]

25 minutes ago, tngiloy said:

Is there newer/better firmware I should be using?

What version of sacd_extract is that?  What version is on your host PC?

[tngiloy]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

What version of sacd_extract is that?  What version is on your host PC?

When I open the 'version.txt'  it says 'version 7'

If that is not the optimal version could you (or someone else) point me to the new, improved firmware.

Thanks.

[Kal Rubinson]

Without knowing what your host is running, I cannot be certain.  Perhaps this link might help:

https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/down-the-rabbit-hole-of-sacd-ripping-and-dsd-extraction/

[MikeyFresh]

4 hours ago, tngiloy said:

Please excuse my ignorance. I have been using the methods (and files) from this thread for years with these files on my thumbdrive with my Oppo 103D.

Is there newer/better firmware I should be using?

 

The AutoScript used in the Blu-ray player shown in your screenshot has not changed, keep using that exact folder on the USB flash drive. 

 

The sacd_extract.exe found in the GUI folder on your PC has changed/updated several times over the years, and yes v7 is old, 3.9.3 is current.

 

Replace that specific file with the latest enhanced version found on EuFlo's GitHub (scroll to the very bottom to reveal the Assets).

 

If you are using ISO2DSD, you might also wish to consider updating the GUI too, as mindset's SACDExtractGUI offers some additional functionality not found in ISO2DSD.

[miguelito]

12 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I do not know but why presume that, aside from slight difference in duration, there is a difference in the audio content? 

 

I raised this point about sacd_extract.exe when someone inquired about different ripping methods.  All the popular consumer-level methods are really user interfaces for implementing sacd_extract.exe.  Any significant differences in the output would not depend on the "method," i.e., user interface, but whether there significant differences in the version of sacd_extract.exe.  In my personal experience, there are no audible differences aside from the handling of track transitions.  

The difference here is one of the files is NOT ripped but the DSD download of the same release (which as a side note, is no longer for sale as a DSD download - possibly a rights issue). What I want to determine is the accuracy of the rip vs the original source rather than differences in versions of sacd_extract.

[greynolds]

9 hours ago, miguelito said:

The difference here is one of the files is NOT ripped but the DSD download of the same release (which as a side note, is no longer for sale as a DSD download - possibly a rights issue). What I want to determine is the accuracy of the rip vs the original source rather than differences in versions of sacd_extract.

I would be inclined to trust the accuracy of the rip vs a download as there's no telling what the history was on the DSD file you downloaded.  With the rip from your SACD, assuming you're confident the SACD itself was legitimate, the ISO file from the rip is exactly what was on the disk.  The only issue I recall with extracting individual files from the ISO files is the issue with pops between tracks that has already been discussed.  It just feels like you're spending a lot of energy on something that really isn't worth spending that energy on.

[Kal Rubinson]

35 minutes ago, greynolds said:

I would be inclined to trust the accuracy of the rip vs a download as there's no telling what the history was on the DSD file you downloaded.  With the rip from your SACD, assuming you're confident the SACD itself was legitimate, the ISO file from the rip is exactly what was on the disk.  The only issue I recall with extracting individual files from the ISO files is the issue with pops between tracks that has already been discussed.  It just feels like you're spending a lot of energy on something that really isn't worth spending that energy on.

I completely agree.  The only issue for interest might be if you are able to get a download directly from the label/manufacturer.

[greynolds]

8 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I completely agree.  The only issue for interest might be if you are able to get a download directly from the label/manufacturer.

Yeah, but even then you would still have no idea what the history is behind the file.  Just because the bits are different from the rip from the physical SACD, it doesn't mean the rip is bad.

[Kal Rubinson]

1 minute ago, greynolds said:

Yeah, but even then you would still have no idea what the history is behind the file.  Just because the bits are different from the rip from the physical SACD, it doesn't mean the rip is bad.

Certainly.  One cannot assume the rip is bad based on any such comparison, only that the "disc and rip" might be different from the file.  If one is concerned about the accuracy of the rip, one can only assess this by comparison to another rip of the same disc and, even then, one would not know which, if either, is the accurate one.  How about a statistical study of multiple rips with different GUIs and/or different versions of sacd_extract.exe?  This whole issue is, imho, not worth the bandwidth. 

 

 

[BlueSkyy]

6 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Certainly.  One cannot assume the rip is bad based on any such comparison, only that the "disc and rip" might be different from the file.  If one is concerned about the accuracy of the rip, one can only assess this by comparison to another rip of the same disc and, even then, one would not know which, if either, is the accurate one.  How about a statistical study of multiple rips with different GUIs and/or different versions of sacd_extract.exe?  This whole issue is, imho, not worth the bandwidth. 

 

 

DBPoweramp has an "accurip" function that compares various rips from CDs and it lets you know if your rip compares to others.  I am not sure if there is an equivalent for SACDs, etc.  Probably not.