WHOA, HIGH END, out of my league... PICTURES

[DomieMic65]

Yes they do! I'm still loving the Rogers I bought new during the winter of '75-76. They make some wonderful sounds driven by good program material using good equipment. They're not quite as precise or analytical on music as my Focals or my JBL 305s, and the bass is "a bit thin" below about 50 Hz. But driven by my Prima Luna tube amp, they throw some truly realistic sound into the room up to their admittedly low output limit. What bass they do make is remarkably well controlled, too. They will deliver 95+ db at 3'. Much beyond that, you can hear the voice coil knocking on whatever physically limits its travel. The bang is alarming enough so that the wise only let it happen once, but every owner I know (and the Google group is surprisingly large) has tested the limit once. I did it while driving them with a Hafler 500 many years ago, playing the original Umbrella D2D vinyl from Rob McConnell & the Boss Brass (a truly stellar, amazing, wonderful performance and recording that still sounds better than almost any source material I've heard).

 

Great speakers for what they can do..

I would like to have a pair for sure!

 

Anyway by "BBC Monitors" I didn't mean only, the most known of course, LS3/5A, but all the lines that these manufacturers make until nowadays.

They are more "correct" technically too I guess...

[bluesman]

Anyway by "BBC Monitors" I didn't mean only, the most known of course, LS3/5A, but all the lines that these manufacturers make until nowadays. They are more "correct" technically too I guess...

My son has had a pair of the Spendors for about 10 years now, and they sound very similar to my originals. Herb Reichert's excellent Stereophile review of the latest incarnation from Falcon (complete with history that jives with my memory & experience) sums it up nicely:

"[T]he Falcons make my old Rogerses sound a tad drowsy and fuzzy, like a cartridge with too many miles on it. (Perhaps I'm responding to a fresh tweeter with a slightly stronger response.) The Falcon is livelier and sings more clearly than any other LS3/5a I've heard. To my ears, this new, hypercrafted edition seems more "invisible," better toned, less "miserably" distorted or "peculiar" sounding, than any other moderately priced loudspeaker I've used in my home—ever."

 

I think he's exactly correct that the better sound of each new version is probably from comparison with aging components in the older models. Drift in values among crossover components probably affects SQ too. I have to admit that my originals do seem to have most of their original sparkle, but I'm not sure that my ears do (conventional audiometry only goes up to 8k). In comparison with my 2+ year old Focals and my months old JBL 305s, the Rogers lack some "precision" (I can't think of a better or more descriptive term for it). But they still sound mighty good and are hard for my son and me to differentiate from his Spendors - and his ears are 35 years younger than mine.

 

When looking at originals, make sure the cabinet is still air-tight, as even a tiny leak affects SQ. The "box test" is simple and reliable:

"[G]ently [press] the bass unit inwards (towards the cabinet). It should move slowly and with some difficulty, as the box equalises to the compressed air. On release it should move back outwards to its rest position slowly, almost reluctantly. If it moves out quickly (or instantly) you have a sealing problem."

 

You can get replacement drivers and parts, but they're not exact matches for the originals. There's an excellent support site for originals, too. As for the OP in this thread, being a Rogers nut doesn't require an endless budget, but good original versions have sold for what I consider to be ridiculous amounts of money for years now. Truth be told, the JBL 305s are as pleasant and rewarding to have as the LS3/5as overall. I may just "cash in" my Rogers someday and use the money for 21st century pleasures.

[gmgraves]

It's possible (I have finally managed) to build a system that makes all recordings sound about as enjoyable as they're going to be, even the worst can be pleasant to listen to, Metal and everything else sounds awesome.

 

But this hasn't been achieved by buying the most expensive gear available, it was by choosing extremely well engineered components and optimising the operating environment they are being asked to work in.

If you buy top-end gear and use it in a poor working environment, you'll likely end up with a system that makes poor recordings unlistenable = waste of money as most recordings are poor.

 

Summary: do the tweaks that might appear over the top or nerdy, they'll most likely add up to give you great music.

 

;-)

 

 

Old saying: You can put a tuxedo on a goat. But in the end, it's still a goat. Same with bad recordings. You can play them through the world's finest audio system, but that system cannot extract that which isn't there from the recording.

[gmgraves]

There's also the old Advent approach. Many years ago, TAS raved about a stacked "double Advent" system and even went on to praise a triple stack for really big rooms. I suspect that stacking a pair (or more) of 305s would give a pretty big sound, and driving them would require nothing beyond a small patchbox. Point source devotees would scream, but line source lovers should be very happy. As I can use another pair of powered speakers to put on our patio, I may pick up a second pair and try a double set next time they're on sale (red ones were $99 each at Guitar Center several weeks ago!)

 

FWIW, my 305s (driven by my Emotiva Stealth DC1) are very very good. They have a lot in common sonically with my Focal towers driven by my Wadia 151 and are truly satisfying. "Out of my league" may still refer to price, but quality with very few compromises is within reach of almost all of us today.

 

I bought four Advants and stacked them back in the '70's - courtesy of TAS. It worked OK, but I found that the second tweeter confused the imaging, so I ended up disconnecting it. So the ploy wasn't all beer and skittles. Later I found that a better idea was to add a subwoofer to a pair of speakers that sounded good, rather than doubling-up on them.

[mansr]

Old saying: You can put a tuxedo on a goat. But in the end, it's still a goat. Same with bad recordings. You can play them through the world's finest audio system, but that system cannot extract that which isn't there from the recording.

That'll change with MQA.

[gmgraves]

That'll change with MQA.

 

 

I don't see how. Sounds like you're saying that MQA can make an old 78 of Toscanini, for instance, sound like it was recorded yesterday in 24/96 or DSD. I never saw that claim from Stuart.

[mansr]

I don't see how. Sounds like you're saying that MQA can make an old 78 of Toscanini, for instance, sound like it was recorded yesterday in 24/96 or DSD. I never saw that claim from Stuart.

You missed the invisible sarcasm tag.

[r_w]

Mate that's always true (I'm on your team) but you can 'bring out the best' and that's what a great system should do, systems that don't aren't great.

 

 

;-)

 

Old saying: You can put a tuxedo on a goat. But in the end, it's still a goat. Same with bad recordings. You can play them through the world's finest audio system, but that system cannot extract that which isn't there from the recording.

[gmgraves]

You missed the invisible sarcasm tag.

 

Yeah, I don't see the tag, but I thought sarcasm might just be the answer

[esldude]

That'll change with MQA.

Thanks for the laugh. Very funny my friend.

[kdubious]

I think different people get different things out of their participation in "high end audio."

 

Musical Enjoyment

A feeling of success in The Pursuit of Better

The pleasure of Visual Aesthetics

Bragging Rights / Status

 

Does a silver fork make a steak taste better? Maybe it does a little. There's no hint of rusty iron. It's certainly better than a plastic fork that breaks. How about eating it at the country club?

 

You can draw similar analogies with cars (I'm quite fond of Lamborghini), homes... furniture even.

 

I was chatting with someone recently who hand-crafts bowls out of native North Carolina woods. It takes her HOURS to make one, days even. Her material costs are relatively low, using local wood. And they are beautiful. But in the end, she has to sell the thing for a couple of hundred dollars if she wants to make a living. And her bowls can't even hold soup all that well!

 

It's really expensive to manufacture custom items in low quantity. We live in a globalized world that's set up for high volume. (Try to get a prototype of a good looking custom aluminum chassis made and you'll see what I mean!) All of the overhead setup expenses get dumped into the few you make, not spread out across 10,000. All of your component orders are at the highest price, lacking volume discounts. It's just more expensive.

 

If we're talking purely about Musical Enjoyment, that can be had in rather high quality on the cheap (both relative terms were intentional). If we're talking about bragging rights, that involves giving up a bit more of what you've got. For the avid DIY'er, that means time, technical know how, trial and error and a graveyard of failed parts and projects. For the uber-wealthy, that means dropping a bunch of their cash on a piece (audio gear, watch, car, house, furniture) that one of their friends doesn't have.

 

I've spent plenty of time in my life angry about the "haves", thinking I was a "have not." But in some ways, we're all "haves" and we're all "have nots."

 

Oh, and for honesty's sake, I have not a Lamborghini.

[davidbeinct]

How about eating it at the country club?

 

 

Oh, and for honesty's sake, I have not a Lamborghini.

 

I've eaten at a couple of pretty pricy country clubs (not a member) and have been less than impressed with the food in both cases.

 

I can do a lot better with a good piece of steak at home with my Big Green Egg and hardwood charcoal. I don't have silver forks though, or a Lamborghini, but I do have a Moto Guzzi in the garage.

[beerandmusic]

I think different people get different things out of their participation in "high end audio."

 

Musical Enjoyment

A feeling of success in The Pursuit of Better

The pleasure of Visual Aesthetics

Bragging Rights / Status

 

Does a silver fork make a steak taste better? Maybe it does a little. There's no hint of rusty iron. It's certainly better than a plastic fork that breaks. How about eating it at the country club?

 

You can draw similar analogies with cars (I'm quite fond of Lamborghini), homes... furniture even.

 

I was chatting with someone recently who hand-crafts bowls out of native North Carolina woods. It takes her HOURS to make one, days even. Her material costs are relatively low, using local wood. And they are beautiful. But in the end, she has to sell the thing for a couple of hundred dollars if she wants to make a living. And her bowls can't even hold soup all that well!

 

It's really expensive to manufacture custom items in low quantity. We live in a globalized world that's set up for high volume. (Try to get a prototype of a good looking custom aluminum chassis made and you'll see what I mean!) All of the overhead setup expenses get dumped into the few you make, not spread out across 10,000. All of your component orders are at the highest price, lacking volume discounts. It's just more expensive.

 

If we're talking purely about Musical Enjoyment, that can be had in rather high quality on the cheap (both relative terms were intentional). If we're talking about bragging rights, that involves giving up a bit more of what you've got. For the avid DIY'er, that means time, technical know how, trial and error and a graveyard of failed parts and projects. For the uber-wealthy, that means dropping a bunch of their cash on a piece (audio gear, watch, car, house, furniture) that one of their friends doesn't have.

 

I've spent plenty of time in my life angry about the "haves", thinking I was a "have not." But in some ways, we're all "haves" and we're all "have nots."

 

Oh, and for honesty's sake, I have not a Lamborghini.

 

When i went to the demo of these $200k speakers, as well as demos as $500K+ system setups at CES, I am impressed by the sonics, but i do think to myself it sounds great, but at that price, it doesn't sound that great. I often wondered though what is the price of speakers would i have to spend to "get close". I think with the right room, i could be happy with a $20K sound system...i am thinking something along the lines of a used pair of B&W 802 Diamonds may be my final speaker purchase, although for the moment i am quite content with my $700 used B&W 7NT.

[kdubious]

I think with the right room...

By far, the most life-changing experience I've had with audio gear came when I built a few "wide band traps" out of industrial insulation (OC704, I think), measured my space with RoomEQ, located them properly to alleviate the issues I had with a few nasty reflections and, somewhat related, decay.

 

Total investment was a few hundred bucks, and a couple of days time. (I even hung 2 4' x 4' panels with suspended ceiling hardware to kill a nasty reflection off the ceiling)

 

No single component change has ever been so drastic as properly treating a room. Some speaker upgrades have come close.

[Sal1950]

When i went to the demo of these $200k speakers, as well as demos as $500K+ system setups at CES, I am impressed by the sonics, but i do think to myself it sounds great, but at that price, it doesn't sound that great. I often wondered though what is the price of speakers would i have to spend to "get close". I think with the right room, i could be happy with a $20K sound system...i am thinking something along the lines of a used pair of B&W 802 Diamonds may be my final speaker purchase, although for the moment i am quite content with my $700 used B&W 7NT.

 

If I was in the market for speakers in that price range I'd be giving serious consideration to the JBL M2 or 4367 designed by Dr Floyd Toole and Sean Oliver.

JBL 4367 Studio Monitor - Positive Feedback

JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor Review - Audiophile Nirvana

[YashN]

No single component change has ever been so drastic as properly treating a room.

 

I put clean power/balanced power and connection/proper grounding as well as vibration isolation/control on the same importance level as room diagnosis and organic acoustic room treatment.

[Allan F]

Does a silver fork make a steak taste better? Maybe it does a little. There's no hint of rusty iron. It's certainly better than a plastic fork that breaks. How about eating it at the country club?

Not exactly the best analogy since the universal metal alternative to a silver fork is a stainless steel one, which does not rust (or tarnish) and has no taste of its own.

[esldude]

I put clean power/balanced power and connection/proper grounding as well as vibration isolation/control on the same importance level as room diagnosis and organic acoustic room treatment.

 

I guess our opinion on this is about 3 orders of magnitude different with me leaning toward room issues.

 

With simply plugging up gear and plugging it into the wall most issues are at least -80 db down from a full scale signal. Yet you consider what is gained with power as important as room response which has issues many, many, many, many times larger. I probably didn't use enough of the word many to be accurate here. Sounds like you need to work on the PS design of your SET.

[YashN]

I guess our opinion on this is about 3 orders of magnitude different with me leaning toward room issues.

 

With simply plugging up gear and plugging it into the wall most issues are at least -80 db down from a full scale signal. Yet you consider what is gained with power as important as room response which has issues many, many, many, many times larger. I probably didn't use enough of the word many to be accurate here. Sounds like you need to work on the PS design of your SET.

 

Based on what you write on this forum, I never expect you to understand me. It would take you years or decades if at all.

 

My point of view, and I am not asking you to share it, nor expecting you to, is that before you even consider hearing your gear properly, you need these 4 things:

 

0. Learn to listen

 

1. Clean Power/Grounding and interconnects ( a lot of this has to do with dedicated audio lines and balanced power, balanced interconnects and solving grounding issues)

 

2. Vibration isolation and control, especially when combined with #1 above

 

3. Room diagnosis and organic, acoustic treatment (as opposed to the improper rush to DSP correct anything) and re-iteration

 

Then, using your gear, you can re-iterate as often as you find a weak chain in your system, which will change.

 

I'm not holding my breath for you to catch up or to understand, I am moving forward with my own world-view.

 

Your current inabilities are totally irrelevant to me.

 

I only read you for entertainment, not knowledge.

[Sal1950]

I guess our opinion on this is about 3 orders of magnitude different with me leaning toward room issues.

 

With simply plugging up gear and plugging it into the wall most issues are at least -80 db down from a full scale signal. Yet you consider what is gained with power as important as room response which has issues many, many, many, many times larger. I probably didn't use enough of the word many to be accurate here. Sounds like you need to work on the PS design of your SET.

 

+1 Dennis,

Hey, did you get your "pet rock in a box plus terminal" yet. LOL

[elcorso]

Based on what you write on this forum, I never expect you to understand me. It would take you years or decades if at all.

 

My point of view, and I am not asking you to share it, nor expecting you to, is that before you even consider hearing your gear properly, you need these 4 things:

 

0. Learn to listen

 

1. Clean Power/Grounding and interconnects ( a lot of this has to do with dedicated audio lines and balanced power, balanced interconnects and solving grounding issues)

 

2. Vibration isolation and control, especially when combined with #1 above

 

3. Room diagnosis and organic, acoustic treatment (as opposed to the improper rush to DSP correct anything) and re-iteration

 

Then, using your gear, you can re-iterate as often as you find a weak chain in your system, which will change.

 

I'm not holding my breath for you to catch up or to understand, I am moving forward with my own world-view.

 

Your current inabilities are totally irrelevant to me.

 

I only read you for entertainment, not knowledge.

 

+1

 

But there are new solutions for esldude old problem

 

Please read this:

 

Scientists successfully 3D print a functioning human ear | Inhabitat - Green Design, Innovation, Architecture, Green Building

 

Roch

[esldude]

Wash, rinse, repeat. Thus are many an audiophile stuck on the great wheel of life. Some few put their audiophile ego aside and step off.

[master]

If I was in the market for speakers in that price range I'd be giving serious consideration to the JBL M2 or 4367 designed by Dr Floyd Toole and Sean Oliver.

JBL 4367 Studio Monitor - Positive Feedback

JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor Review - Audiophile Nirvana

 

Thanks!

 

A couple more to drool and dream over.

[beetlemania]

I've never heard one of these crazy mega-warbucks systems. But I have heard some crazy good-sounding systems with TAD, Vivid, and Vandersteen speakers, powered by top-shelf Ayre, ARC and the like. Ya know, regular warbuck systems! Stunning resolution, dynamics, transparency, etc - just musical to the nth degree.

 

I wonder whether $200K speakers and $100K amps really sound better than these or are merely different (possibly worse). If I ever win the lottery, I'll probably get a system that tips the scales near $100K and not look back.

[Sal1950]

If I ever win the lottery, I'll probably get a system that tips the scales near $100K and not look back.

 

Cheapskate. LOL