WHOA, HIGH END, out of my league... PICTURES

[esldude]

Honestly (and I may receive some flak for this) something like the JBL LSR305 studio monitors are excellent for most folks and most genres. They go pretty deep (or you can go for the LSR308), the waveguide makes them excellent in imaging, they are powered so you save on the amp, and they cost less than $300 a pair. They image well, have excellent detail and dynamics, and handle everything well... probably the one weak link is they don't go very loud, but more than enough loud for nearfield listening, just not party speakers.

 

Truly exceptional speakers and they ably demonstrate that good sound can be had at even a tiny budget these days.

 

The only additions would be a source/transport and a DAC (SMSL makes some excellent budget DACs), so for like under $400 to $500 you could have an excellent sounding setup.

 

Yes things like this should be discussed often in audio mags. I guess there isn't as much revenue from it, and most people think it too good to be true.

 

Add a subwoofer to the 305's and they can fill a pretty sizable room too.

[17629]

Yes things like this should be discussed often in audio mags. I guess there isn't as much revenue from it, and most people think it too good to be true.

 

Add a subwoofer to the 305's and they can fill a pretty sizable room too.

 

One thing you need to consider is that powered studio monitors aren't marketed to consumers. If the manufacturers take the initiative, I don't see why a retailer would. Other powered speakers like Audio Engine are close in price and they get plenty of attention.

[gmgraves]

San Diego doesn't have much of an audiophile club...not even a website per se'.

 

But you can add your name to a email listing. I have only got 3 emails in 2 months since i have joined, and the first 2 weren't very interesting or too far away.

 

But i got an email where a few engineers were showing off their equipment and the editor of The Absolute Sound's Illustrated History of High-End Audio book was on hand saturday in a La Jolla audio shop. Figured I would check it out.

 

They had about 5 or 6 rooms with some high end systems, but this system sounded amazing...as good or better than anything I have heard at CES shows. I knew not to ask about any prices and that probably everything but the record collection would be out of my range (grin). I googled the amp, and it wasn't as much as i thought it might be..only $20k. I am curious about these speakers though...guessing $200K+??

 

I did enjoy looking through the records and got a free copy of the current absolute sound magazine, and also got to enjoy listening to this wonderful setup. Took a picture of the album cover they were demonstrating with, as I will look to acquire it...sounded superb...

 

I also liked seeing these sound panels. I like the idea of being able to put your own picture on a panel. The cheapest i could find online for that feature for a 2'x4'x 2" is $200 or $800 for 4. I will do something like that down the road....very nice.

 

Nice to dream of being rich for a couple hours....and talk about interconnects and power cords ...wow.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25694[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]25695[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]25696[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]25697[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]25698[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]25699[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]25700[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]25701[/ATTACH]

 

You can make those sound absorbent panels yourself. Just a few simple tools and some basic materials and a few hours time, and you can make very nice ones.

[wisnon]

I've never heard any speaker as good as ATC actives and they cost max £40k (for 300 ASL top model) and that price includes 8 amps perfectly tuned to each drive unit.

 

Can't see how any passive speaker can be worth much more than £20k.

 

Just my 2p.

 

The Goldmund speakers: Apologue/Anatta/Satya/ProLogos are all active Wireless and with 24/96 PCM Dac included Inside and Proteus/Leonardo DRC built in. They all cost more than the ATC you mention. The ProLogos Mk2 for example is $70K a pair. You only need a laptop to Stream wirelessly to them.

 

Powered by Telos wide bandwidth amps.

 

They are all bad to the bone.

[mordante]

For active speaker the ME Geithain ME901K1 look interesting.

 

[wisnon]

Huh. Over 200 grand for a set of speakers. I'd be curious how well they could handle metal. I'd almost be willing to bet that you won't hear average recordings demo'd on any of those mega-buck speakers. But it would be interesting to hear it to see if it sounds good with say, a Sevendust song or something like that.

The Ref Statement stenheims are about $500K and the Goldmund Apologues (only 25 will ever be made and at least 20 have been sold) starts at 600k. These are big leagues speakers...

[whoozwah]

I'd be interesting in hearing if there is a 500x better listening experience between a 1 grand pair of speakers and a pair that costs half a million dollars.

[r_w]

I'm guessing the ATC 300ASL (below) would be circa $70k in the USA? These'll have your trousers flapping and still sound smooth and refined to a pin drop (much of the magic is in the non conductive super linear magnets that reduce eddy currents, plus the amazing mid driver and now they have their own hand built tweeter - not shown in the pic).

 

;-)

 

 

The Goldmund speakers: Apologue/Anatta/Satya/ProLogos are all active Wireless and with 24/96 PCM Dac included Inside and Proteus/Leonardo DRC built in. They all cost more than the ATC you mention. The ProLogos Mk2 for example is $70K a pair. You only need a laptop to Stream wirelessly to them.

 

Powered by Telos wide bandwidth amps.

 

They are all bad to the bone.

 

[master]

I'd be interesting in hearing if there is a 500x better listening experience between a 1 grand pair of speakers and a pair that costs half a million dollars.

 

Unlikely, the law of diminishing returns states otherwise.

 

But it's not really about owning them, if you ever get a chance do listen to them.

 

Most folks will never own $100,000 speakers. Even those who own will never own all the $100,000 speakers in the world. Then it becomes all about the opportunity to listen to them, as many as you can.

 

For that reason alone I'm a camper every chance I get to attend shows, auditions, or even audiophile gatherings and events at friends and other hi-fi lovers. Most of the time (that's pretty much always) I'm impressed by high end audio. Its not about are they worth it or are they x times better than y, but they have the power to transport you to another place in music. That alone makes it worth it.

 

Most will in fact never even hear the speakers the way they are meant to be heard.

 

Meaning?

 

I've a friend who is a dealer in high end audio and he sets them up for clients. I had a chance to listen to some expensive speakers that he was setting up for someone and after hours of trying to set them up, toeing them in, etc. he gave up. Afterwards he told me he'd probably set them up a 9 or a 9.5 and only the owner/designer/folks who worked on these speakers on a daily basis would set them up 10/10 and get everything perfect. He just could not and had to settle for the 9. Unlikely the owner/designer would ever visit a home to set things up, but they do it for audio shows.

 

I've experienced pure audio nirvana on many such occasions.

[bluesman]

Yes things like this should be discussed often in audio mags. I guess there isn't as much revenue from it, and most people think it too good to be true.

 

Add a subwoofer to the 305's and they can fill a pretty sizable room too.

There's also the old Advent approach. Many years ago, TAS raved about a stacked "double Advent" system and even went on to praise a triple stack for really big rooms. I suspect that stacking a pair (or more) of 305s would give a pretty big sound, and driving them would require nothing beyond a small patchbox. Point source devotees would scream, but line source lovers should be very happy. As I can use another pair of powered speakers to put on our patio, I may pick up a second pair and try a double set next time they're on sale (red ones were $99 each at Guitar Center several weeks ago!)

 

FWIW, my 305s (driven by my Emotiva Stealth DC1) are very very good. They have a lot in common sonically with my Focal towers driven by my Wadia 151 and are truly satisfying. "Out of my league" may still refer to price, but quality with very few compromises is within reach of almost all of us today.

[bluesman]

But it's not really about owning them, if you ever get a chance do listen to them. Most folks will never own $100,000 speakers. Even those who own will never own all the $100,000 speakers in the world. Then it becomes all about the opportunity to listen to them, as many as you can.

Absolutely! One of the things I hate the most is a second hand opinion formed without benefit of experience. You can't possibly know what it's like to hear, touch, see, taste, or smell something without using your own ears, hands, eyes, mouth or nose. Like the old blues tune goes, you gotta get your hands on it. I've learned too many times that something isn't at all as I imagined it to be after reading and hearing about it. Some turned out to be much better and others disappointed - but I learn either way. Experience is truly the best teacher.

[gmgraves]

Sometimes I think it's crazy. But I also think it's mostly flagship type products that have gone into the 100k plus price points. If the absolute best is crazy expensive I guess that's ok. Fortunately much of HiFi isn't that expensive and can reproduce great sound.

 

The biggest problem with audio pricing these days is the economics of scale. I do technical writing for a small, very high-end audio company and a look into their manufacturing model is both informative and illustrative of my point.

 

Most very high-end companies are tiny. All of them aren't as small as the one I write for, but OTOH, compared to some of their competition, who are vying for the same market, they are certainly at a disadvantage when it comes to pricing.

 

First of all, they buy from some of the same vendors as do larger corporations in different fields of electronics: Vishay, Alps, Rubycon, Cornell-Dubilier, Texas Instruments, Raytheon, etc. All of these companies are in business to sell large quantities of their products. The general business model for most component suppliers is that the larger the volume a customer buys, the cheaper the per-unit price. Where do you think this puts a company that buys maybe a hundred units a year vs. a company that buys 10K (or more) per year? First of all, they often won't even be serviced by the factory, directly, and many don't even qualify to buy from a distributor. They end-up buying retail from some company like DigiKey. Not only do they get the worst possible per-unit pricing, but they suck hind-teat, as it were, when it comes to availability. If there is a shortage of any component, due to high demand, who do you think gets serviced last; even from a retailer? That's right, the company with the smallest orders.

 

This economic factor ripples through the entire manufacturing process. Custom casework becomes very expensive because, again, there are never enough units being sold to ever fully amortize the tooling costs, and so that cost is spread over very few units. Ditto for custom printed circuit boards, custom power transformers and other big-ticket, bespoke components. The result is that the parts cost is often as much as 5 or even 10X what it would be if a larger company were making the same products. Assembly is another big cost. Many such small, high-end manufacturers use outside contractors; board stuffing services, assembly houses, complete contract manufacturing establishments to build their products for them. In the case of the company I'm familiar with, they do it themselves. The designer, the company owner, their wives, teen-aged children and occasionally, friends, are pressed into service to get units built. This, of course largely eliminates assembly costs, in terms of accountability, and yet, one of their amplifiers still costs them US$6K per unit to make - and remember, that's just parts. There are no direct labor costs in this case. They sell this amplifier for US$12K through dealers! That, of course, means that they make only about US$3K per unit, and the dealer only makes US$3K per unit. How does that tally with the manufacturing textbooks which all say that the standard retail formula for all manufactured goods should be 6X the cost? I can't, of course, speak for other companies, some of which may, indeed, be retailing their wares for 6X their cost. I know that if this small audio company with which I'm familiar, did that, this one amplifier model would end up costing US$36,000!

 

I point this out to show that while high-end audio is outrageously priced, there's a reason for it, and I doubt that any reputable company is gouging anybody with their prices. They are just trying to make a reasonable return on what is, after all, a very high investment. My hat's certainly off to companies like Schiit and Audio by Van Austin and a few others who domestically build all of their products and still manage to provide high performance at very fair prices.

[NOMBEDES]

Huh. Over 200 grand for a set of speakers. I'd be curious how well they could handle metal. I'd almost be willing to bet that you won't hear average recordings demo'd on any of those mega-buck speakers. But it would be interesting to hear it to see if it sounds good with say, a Sevendust song or something like that.

 

I recently heard some metal through a dCS / Rockport system costing well over $200K for the full kit. The lesson learned, a poor recording sounds bad on a nice system, but way worse on a high end system.

[esldude]

There's also the old Advent approach. Many years ago, TAS raved about a stacked "double Advent" system and even went on to praise a triple stack for really big rooms. I suspect that stacking a pair (or more) of 305s would give a pretty big sound, and driving them would require nothing beyond a small patchbox. Point source devotees would scream, but line source lovers should be very happy. As I can use another pair of powered speakers to put on our patio, I may pick up a second pair and try a double set next time they're on sale (red ones were $99 each at Guitar Center several weeks ago!)

 

FWIW, my 305s (driven by my Emotiva Stealth DC1) are very very good. They have a lot in common sonically with my Focal towers driven by my Wadia 151 and are truly satisfying. "Out of my league" may still refer to price, but quality with very few compromises is within reach of almost all of us today.

I tried double stacking my pair vs one for mono auditioning. This was while trying to decide on a double stack vs a sub. I ended up with a sub, and best I can tell it was a good decision. I wondered since Harman goes to such trouble to get controlled dispersion how having a stack would cause problems with that. As you will introduce some comb filtering from a stack. Mainly the sub crossing over at 80 hz seemed to relieve the 305s more than doubling up helped. This was a temp setup for a large room.

[esldude]

My subjective estimate over years and many levels of systems was subjective quality was about a fourth power function. Doubling subjective quality required 16 times the money. I would say one power of that is from economies of scale George talked about.

 

Some low cost gear like 305s are much better than ever. Let's say you could manage a pretty okay rig for $500. Double that might run you $8 k. Double quality again puts it in the $128 k range. Doubling that goes over a million bucks. At that point is their any quality increased beyond sheer size, beauty and status?

[r_w]

It's possible (I have finally managed) to build a system that makes all recordings sound about as enjoyable as they're going to be, even the worst can be pleasant to listen to, Metal and everything else sounds awesome.

 

But this hasn't been achieved by buying the most expensive gear available, it was by choosing extremely well engineered components and optimising the operating environment they are being asked to work in.

If you buy top-end gear and use it in a poor working environment, you'll likely end up with a system that makes poor recordings unlistenable = waste of money as most recordings are poor.

 

Summary: do the tweaks that might appear over the top or nerdy, they'll most likely add up to give you great music.

 

;-)

 

 

I recently heard some metal through a dCS / Rockport system costing well over $200K for the full kit. The lesson learned, a poor recording sounds bad on a nice system, but way worse on a high end system.

[master]

The biggest problem with audio pricing these days is the economics of scale. I do technical writing for a small, very high-end audio company and a look into their manufacturing model is both informative and illustrative of my point.

 

Snip...

 

Thanks for that. Gives you a different perspective (or a behind the scenes look) at why equipment is so expensive.

 

At least it's not always about ripping people off.

 

Not that I've anything against expensive speakers (or its ilk) as long as they deliver.

 

I'd probably make a beeline for the Magico's myself if anything.

 

That said there is a lot of stuff that does not deliver too, especially snake oil, or genuinely subpar performance.

 

I've been changing DACs for a while now (at least more than speakers and amps) and I've heard some really cheap DACs ($100-$300) from the likes of SMSL that will go toe-to-toe with many DACs that cost 10 times more. The JBL 305s being discussed here too will do the same. I've heard some really expensive speakers and the JBLs are as good as them in the imaging department, they are so accurate.

 

I'd venture to think the profit margins would be less here, hence the lack of an advertising budget. But otherwise audiophilia would be such a huge market with excellent sound available at budget.

[whoozwah]

a poor recording sounds bad on a nice system, but way worse on a high end system.

 

My subjective estimate over years and many levels of systems was subjective quality was about a fourth power function. Doubling subjective quality required 16 times the money. I would say one power of that is from economies of scale George talked about.

 

Some low cost gear like 305s are much better than ever. Let's say you could manage a pretty okay rig for $500. Double that might run you $8 k. Double quality again puts it in the $128 k range. Doubling that goes over a million bucks. At that point is their any quality increased beyond sheer size, beauty and status?

 

These 2 points are highly useful pieces of information for the neophyte audiophile. You'll derive more enjoyment out of music by matching the quality of your components with the quality of the music you'll be playing through them than by making either one a "bottleneck", taking into account diminishing returns.

[bluesman]

I tried double stacking my pair vs one for mono auditioning. This was while trying to decide on a double stack vs a sub. I ended up with a sub, and best I can tell it was a good decision. I wondered since Harman goes to such trouble to get controlled dispersion how having a stack would cause problems with that. As you will introduce some comb filtering from a stack. Mainly the sub crossing over at 80 hz seemed to relieve the 305s more than doubling up helped. This was a temp setup for a large room.

Interesting - thanks! I kept one sub (a Yamaha HS10W) when I downsized, even though I know I can't really use it in an apartment. But I tried it with the 305s, and I didn't like the slight trade-off of tighter bass for deeper bass. The low E string on any bass is 41.2 Hz at concert pitch, and an open C string on a double bass with a C foot is 32 Hz. So the downward extension of a sub does affect an important part of the sonic spectrum for all kinds of music with speakers like the 305s and my original LS3/5as - you don't have to be a pipe organ freak to care about it.

 

Adding the sub seemed to reduce the slight graininess of a live bow on a bass string, and the attack of an electric bass isn't quite as clean with the sub. It makes big pieces on big pianos sound a bit more real, and if crossed over well and level matched, it doesn't seem to affect the sound of instruments in the transition zone, e.g. tenor and baritone saxophones, cellos etc. Of course, being in a 5th floor apartment, I can't crank it like I used to do in our house - but I pushed it a bit in the middle of a Saturday afternoon and didn't get evicted (yet...)

 

I do plan to buy the next pair of 305s I see on sale, to use on the patio. But I'll also stack them next to my Focal towers and see how double 305s do. This is great fun for peanuts!!

[Ajax]

I've been changing DACs for a while now (at least more than speakers and amps) and I've heard some really cheap DACs ($100-$300) from the likes of SMSL that will go toe-to-toe with many DACs that cost 10 times more. The JBL 305s being discussed here too will do the same. I've heard some really expensive speakers and the JBLs are as good as them in the imaging department, they are so accurate.

 

Hi Master and George,

 

I'm looking for an inexpensive but good quality system for my son who is a budding musician. His birthday is next month and I was thinking of surprising him with the Zoom H6 mobile recording unit (that George has spoken about) and a pair of active speakers. A lot of CA members speak very highly of the JBL 305s, which are also reasonably priced here in Australia. Would this be a good system for him to start out with?

 

SMSL DACs and Digital amps are also available here and I was wondering which DAC(s) Master has actually heard. I'm particularly interested in the SMSL M8 DAC, which has incredible specs, but as we know numbers aren't everything. Also have you heard any of their power DACs?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Ajax

[master]

Hi Master and George,

 

I'm looking for an inexpensive but good quality system for my son who is a budding musician. His birthday is next month and I was thinking of surprising him with the Zoom H6 mobile recording unit (that George has spoken about) and a pair of active speakers. A lot of CA members speak very highly of the JBL 305s, which are also reasonably priced here in Australia. Would this be a good system for him to start out with?

 

SMSL DACs and Digital amps are also available here and I was wondering which DAC(s) Master has actually heard. I'm particularly interested in the SMSL M8 DAC, which has incredible specs, but as we know numbers aren't everything. Also have you heard any of their power DACs?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Ajax

 

I'd highly recommend the JBLs. Seriously good stuff.

 

Specific to SMSL I have both SMSL SD793-II and SMSL Sanskrit 6th Gen, both are excellent bang for buck. In particular I love the SMSL SD793-II because its limited to optical and I'm using 4 Chromecast Audios so they are a perfect match, especially for streaming in various rooms like the kitchen, patio, etc.

 

Schiit starts at $99 (USB only) for the Modi 2, but you'd not go wrong with either SMSL DAC I've mentioned above, I cannot fault them anywhere in terms of detail, dynamics, imaging, etc. Haven't heard the M8 though, but I'm sure it'd be great too.

 

Thrown in a Google Chromecast Audio and you'd have a ton of free and paid streaming stations and services.

[wisnon]

I'm guessing the ATC 300ASL (below) would be circa $70k in the USA? These'll have your trousers flapping and still sound smooth and refined to a pin drop (much of the magic is in the non conductive super linear magnets that reduce eddy currents, plus the amazing mid driver and now they have their own hand built tweeter - not shown in the pic).

 

;-)

 

 

RW,

I am not in the US, I am in Switzerland and while I imagine those speakers sound great, beleive me when I tell you that the Goldmund, Stenheim and FM Acoustics stuff are da bomb. They are far too pricey I agree, but dont think that because of that they are not SoTA, as they definitely are!

 

You should read up some on the Goldmund software Proteus designed and refined over 8 years by an egghead PhD lady. It is used for end to end speaker design as well as DRC after the fact. The appendage Leonardo deals with time domain issues, as does the Telos amp circuitry with its ultra high bandwith. I thought Goldmund was just audio jewelry...I was wrong, they employ Advanced tech which they internally develop, Partner in or licence in.

 

I can tell you that they also work with rival speaker makers to mate their speakers to Goldmund amps to get some of the Proteus benefits for customers with Goldmund amps and rivals passive speakers.

 

I suspect that most of the high end guys sound very good and taste will play a big part...

[r_w]

Good info Winson, thanks. Hopefully I will hear some one day, and you some ATCs.

 

PS: Switzerland is a beautiful place., sorry for assuming you were in the USA... almost everyone else here seems to be.

 

;-)

[DomieMic65]

I've never heard any speaker as good as ATC actives and they cost max £40k (for 300 ASL top model) and that price includes 8 amps perfectly tuned to each drive unit.

 

Can't see how any passive speaker can be worth much more than £20k.

 

Just my 2p.

I have never heard the ultra high end "monsters" that are mentioned here but I agree 100% about ACTIVE ATCs.

I have heard the 100ASL discrete and for about 20.000€ if I remember correctly it's a bargain if you have the space.

One of my dreams for my small room is the 20ASL or even the new 19Active..

 

 

+1 for all the "BBC monitors" that where mentioned. Spendor, Harbeth, etc... May be not the best in absolute technical terms but they make serious music... MUSIC!!!

[bluesman]

+1 for all the "BBC monitors" that where mentioned. Spendor, Harbeth, etc... May be not the best in absolute technical terms but they make serious music... MUSIC!!!

Yes they do! I'm still loving the Rogers I bought new during the winter of '75-76. They make some wonderful sounds driven by good program material using good equipment. They're not quite as precise or analytical on music as my Focals or my JBL 305s, and the bass is "a bit thin" below about 50 Hz. But driven by my Prima Luna tube amp, they throw some truly realistic sound into the room up to their admittedly low output limit. What bass they do make is remarkably well controlled, too. They will deliver 95+ db at 3'. Much beyond that, you can hear the voice coil knocking on whatever physically limits its travel. The bang is alarming enough so that the wise only let it happen once, but every owner I know (and the Google group is surprisingly large) has tested the limit once. I did it while driving them with a Hafler 500 many years ago, playing the original Umbrella D2D vinyl from Rob McConnell & the Boss Brass (a truly stellar, amazing, wonderful performance and recording that still sounds better than almost any source material I've heard).