W4S and other USB fixers (non curated)

[r_w]

Ain't that the truth.

 

Minefield would be an under statement, I guess some of us nutters have to do all this R&D for the rest to benefit from, which is why this is a good place to learn.

 

The problem with gizmos is you (I) never know when to bloody stop.

 

;-)

 

Hi r_w,

 

Glad to hear that. Those 2 are getting great reviews indeed. In the end it matters what works in your system. There are so many permutations of differing elements that could influence the final result (with USB especially) that sadly the only way to really know is try it in your own room/setup. Even testing it at a store is not good enough. I liked the USB to AES converter, and Berkeley maintains that setup even for their flagship DAC. The Regen I think was the first to regenerate the signal as close to the destination which is very effective. Between source and destination a lot can still happen.

[r_w]

It would appear that I'm about to find out that Intona Industrial is king (from someone whos opinion on here I respect).

 

The usual system dependent caveat applies.

 

It will arrive early next week and I will duly report.

 

;-)

 

I thought the Mutec was this month's latest and greatest, no?

[r_w]

Just looked at the Mutec, which probably qualifies as more than a mere gizmo, I note that 'universal power supply' almost certainly = SMPS.

 

It looks a bit 'pro audio' to me, which is a worry because IME too many 'pro audio' types don't get audiophile at all.

 

Just my 2p... it may well be excellent, but isn't compelling me just at the moment.

 

 

 

;-)

 

 

I thought the Mutec was this month's latest and greatest, no?

[pipis2010]

Just looked at the Mutec, which probably qualifies as more than a mere gizmo, I note that 'universal power supply' almost certainly = SMPS.

 

It looks a bit 'pro audio' to me, which is a worry because IME too many 'pro audio' types don't get audiophile at all.

 

Just my 2p... it may well be excellent, but isn't compelling me just at the moment.

 

 

 

;-)

 

Curious as to why you think of pro audio equipment as a "worry" - it's not a personal attack or judgement, I am just genuinely curious...

 

 

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[Ryelands]

It would appear that I'm about to find out that Intona Industrial is king.

 

It's certainly very good though I can't say how it compares to e.g. the Regen. A particular advantage for me is that it operates at, as the maker puts it, "the cable level", making it transparent to the OS.

 

My system uses an industrial grade embedded mobo running an OS so slimmed down it can no longer enumerate - it can see only devices it has been configured for. Reconfiguring for different devices is not easy, making for a Fit-and-Forget system but, provided it's used with good PSUs, it sounds much better than more conventional setups. (I have tried a Schiit Wyred hub with a less curtailed OS on the same hardware but, putting it politely, there's really no comparison.)

 

In short, even in what I can reasonably describe as a good setup, the Intona (domestic version) made a dramatic difference. SQ was further improved - slightly - by fitting an AQ Jitterbug between it and the computer; it seemed to lose a little "glare".

 

Using it with an AQVOX PSU designed for USB-powered DACs made little, if any, difference until I powered the AQVOX via a Jon Risch-style DIY'd mains isolator and fancy mains lead. That made for one of those worthwhile steps up that one doesn't always fully appreciated until the change is reversed. (Ironically, AQVOX argues that "the idea of galvanical isolation of the USB-data conductors for improvement of sound quality has lots of friends but has no real advantage". See http://www.aqvox.de/usb-power_en.html . Ah, well.)

 

Obviously, I was using bits I had to hand but the PSU and mains isolator together would normally cost more than, and certainly take up more space than, the Intona. Though I hope in time to simplify things, my trial would seem to suggest scope for improving the performance of the Intona by powering it with a good PSU. But it needs to be pretty good . . . my take is that the Intona performs very well even when host-powered.

[One and a half]

Just looked at the Mutec, which probably qualifies as more than a mere gizmo, I note that 'universal power supply' almost certainly = SMPS.

 

It looks a bit 'pro audio' to me, which is a worry because IME too many 'pro audio' types don't get audiophile at all.

 

Just my 2p... it may well be excellent, but isn't compelling me just at the moment.

 

;-)

 

I'll match your 2p with 1 1/2 p

True many pro audio devices are not audiophile grade, the MC-3+USB is one of those that look pro audio, but under the bonnet is very much audiophile.

As far as implementation of SMPS is concerned, there's crap (ifi wall warts) comes to mind immediately, the operation of the clocks in the Mutec, and all clocks for pro audio need a solid quiet power supply. Single voltage wall warts won't cut it, since there are at least 3-5+ different supplies feeding different parts of the converter and each can fold back and affect the others.

 

Anyway, the Intona is retired. There's quite a bit of interaction between the Mutec (even an MC-1.2 bus powered USB-S/PDIF converter)the source and the Intona, which is dependant on the cabling used. Removing the Intona removed the distortions especially in the treble and saved a cable in the process. Depending on the level of ground loop current, can affect the level of distortions, this is totally system dependant. That's my guess on what happens, comme ci, comme ca.

[r_w]

I've built/owned 2 recording studios in the past, IME pro audio is generally poor to average compared to high-end Hi-Fi. The music biz does not generally concern itself with the subtleties that audiophiles crave, hence utter stupidity such as loudness wars (for just one example).

 

 

PS: the Mutec does look really good but I'm going to stick to USB as it's luckily working a treat in my system. I should also state that there are some excellent implementations of SMPS, one of which is in the Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 Preamp. The problem is that most SMPS implementations are not so good.

 

:-)

 

Curious as to why you think of pro audio equipment as a "worry" - it's not a personal attack or judgement, I am just genuinely curious...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[OldBigEars]

Well it's definitely a step up in both price and 'overkill factor'. But that's probably what makes it a gotta-have-it for some people. The reports seem consistantly positive but there's nothing new in that. The thing is, USB and DAC technologies are moving forward so fast it's hard to take a snapshot and say what's best.

 

Just looked at the Mutec, which probably qualifies as more than a mere gizmo, I note that 'universal power supply' almost certainly = SMPS.

 

It looks a bit 'pro audio' to me, which is a worry because IME too many 'pro audio' types don't get audiophile at all.

 

Just my 2p... it may well be excellent, but isn't compelling me just at the moment.

 

 

 

;-)

[r_w]

Well put, very true.

 

... and the number of permutations are already getting bewildering, but at least it's progress for the (our) enjoyment of music.

 

Someone will I expect will build a DAC with Intona type isolation, 5v purification and femto (or better) re-clocking in the box and potentially clean up (if they get their value proposition right).

 

;-)

 

The thing is, USB and DAC technologies are moving forward so fast it's hard to take a snapshot and say what's best.

[Solstice380]

Well put, very true.

 

... and the number of permutations are already getting bewildering, but at least it's progress for the (our) enjoyment of music.

 

Someone will I expect will build a DAC with Intona type isolation, 5v purification and femto (or better) re-clocking in the box and potentially clean up (if they get their value proposition right).

 

;-)

 

I sure hope so! This flavor of the day add-on is getting tedious at best, and sometimes confusing and misleading at worst. Someone called these devices "room treatments for USB audio". With all the changes it's sometimes hard to tell if I'm fixing USB issues or issues with some core deficiency in my components. I bet nobody remembers what they originally started with for sound quality. Are we fixing a problem or fixing a fix? LOL It is fun anyway, even if somewhat expensive at times.

[soundlogic]

Thinking about trying the Intona. PM me if you have one for sale. Thanks.

[YashN]

It looks a bit 'pro audio' to me, which is a worry because IME too many 'pro audio' types don't get audiophile at all.

 

Trudat

[YashN]

Here's my experience with USB fixers :

2) ifi purifier - a little help but not much

 

Wouldn't the iUSB 3.0 be more in line with devices like the Regen, Intona and W4S?

[pipis2010]

Well put, very true.

 

... and the number of permutations are already getting bewildering, but at least it's progress for the (our) enjoyment of music.

 

Someone will I expect will build a DAC with Intona type isolation, 5v purification and femto (or better) re-clocking in the box and potentially clean up (if they get their value proposition right).

 

;-)

 

Isn't this already implemented in the hi-end and more exotic DACs, $5K+?

 

 

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[johndean]

Wouldn't the iUSB 3.0 be more in line with devices like the Regen, Intona and W4S?

 

I'm sure but I haven't heard it.

[sandyk]

Isn't this already implemented in the hi-end and more exotic DACs, $5K+?

 

 

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The Bricasti M1 costs much more than $5K ,but it benefits greatly from an Uptone USB Regen with an improved PSU.

[tranz]

The Bricasti M1 costs much more than $5K ,but it benefits greatly from an Uptone USB Regen with an improved PSU.

 

+1

 

And some other pricy ones that have benefited as well: McIntosh, Ayre, MSB.

[firedog]

Isn't this already implemented in the hi-end and more exotic DACs, $5K+?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

Often not. Often just an off the shelf XMOS solution with nothing special done to it.

[pipis2010]

+1

 

And some other pricy ones that have benefited as well: McIntosh, Ayre, MSB.

 

That's exactly what troubles me with usb and really expensive DACs. I mean, come on, you pay thousands for a DAC and in the end, basically you see that their USB implementation is not so good. Now, that is a joke to me!

Since everyone knows all the problems with USB, why can't they start offering 2-box solutions for their DAC? It's been proven that you need a good converter/clock/heck even a good usb conditioner prior to sending the signal to the DAC. Why can't they just do such a 2-piece setup instead. I mean for 5-10-20k I can understand it, instead of the one box solution, which apparently fails in its "do-everything-inside-one-box" implementation...

 

 

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[r_w]

It's nobody's fault, it's just that it was originally (globally) assumed that USB ought to be a near perfect simple universal connection.

 

It turns out that whilst bits are bits there is an array of other electrical stuff going on that spoils the party... which some great minds are finally fathoming and fixing.

 

It's called progress.

 

;-)

 

 

 

That's exactly what troubles me with usb and really expensive DACs. I mean, come on, you pay thousands for a DAC and in the end, basically you see that their USB implementation is not so good. Now, that is a joke to me!

Since everyone knows all the problems with USB, why can't they start offering 2-box solutions for their DAC? It's been proven that you need a good converter/clock/heck even a good usb conditioner prior to sending the signal to the DAC. Why can't they just do such a 2-piece setup instead. I mean for 5-10-20k I can understand it, instead of the one box solution, which apparently fails in its "do-everything-inside-one-box" implementation...

 

 

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[firedog]

That's exactly what troubles me with usb and really expensive DACs. I mean, come on, you pay thousands for a DAC and in the end, basically you see that their USB implementation is not so good. Now, that is a joke to me!

Since everyone knows all the problems with USB, why can't they start offering 2-box solutions for their DAC? It's been proven that you need a good converter/clock/heck even a good usb conditioner prior to sending the signal to the DAC. Why can't they just do such a 2-piece setup instead. I mean for 5-10-20k I can understand it, instead of the one box solution, which apparently fails in its "do-everything-inside-one-box" implementation...

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

Thats part of why Berkeley came out with their USB to SPDIF box. Does the job and gets all that circuitry and noise outside of the DAC. Ask Chris, even their $16K Reference model benefits from it.

[SwissBear]

Why can't they just do such a 2-piece setup instead. I mean for 5-10-20k I can understand it, instead of the one box solution, which apparently fails in its "do-everything-inside-one-box" implementation...

It's also what Totaldac (TOTALDAC DAC and digital crossover) is doing with it's independent d1-server, which includes a reclocker, before the DAC itself.

[kennyb123]

Back in the 90's it was SPDIF that was getting all the attention with products introduced to reduce jitter, such as the Genesis Digital Lens and Theta TLC (both of which I owned at one time). These worked but went the way of the dodo as manufacturers began to address jitter at the input to their DACs. I think we'll see something similar with USB eventually. These USB fixers are band aids but they do help day-to-day enjoyment at an affordable price.

[Rexp]

I'll match your 2p with 1 1/2 p

True many pro audio devices are not audiophile grade, the MC-3+USB is one of those that look pro audio, but under the bonnet is very much audiophile.

As far as implementation of SMPS is concerned, there's crap (ifi wall warts) comes to mind immediately, the operation of the clocks in the Mutec, and all clocks for pro audio need a solid quiet power supply. Single voltage wall warts won't cut it, since there are at least 3-5+ different supplies feeding different parts of the converter and each can fold back and affect the others.

 

Anyway, the Intona is retired. There's quite a bit of interaction between the Mutec (even an MC-1.2 bus powered USB-S/PDIF converter)the source and the Intona, which is dependant on the cabling used. Removing the Intona removed the distortions especially in the treble and saved a cable in the process. Depending on the level of ground loop current, can affect the level of distortions, this is totally system dependant. That's my guess on what happens, comme ci, comme ca.

If you were starting from scratch and looking for a DAC would you bother trying USB or go another route assuming a budget around 2000USD? TIA

[holzmann]

That's exactly what troubles me with usb and really expensive DACs. I mean, come on, you pay thousands for a DAC and in the end, basically you see that their USB implementation is not so good. Now, that is a joke to me!

Since everyone knows all the problems with USB, why can't they start offering 2-box solutions for their DAC? It's been proven that you need a good converter/clock/heck even a good usb conditioner prior to sending the signal to the DAC. Why can't they just do such a 2-piece setup instead. I mean for 5-10-20k I can understand it, instead of the one box solution, which apparently fails in its "do-everything-inside-one-box" implementation...

 

 

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I know that NAIM got around this by incorporating (and licensing) Audiophilleo U2S technology inside the NAIM DAC V1...

 

https://www.naimaudio.com/sites/default/files/products/downloads/files/dac-v1_asynchronous-usb_mwp_jan13_0.pdf

 

(This DAC is a bit long in the tooth now, despite its latest firmware update. I do hope NAIM has something new soon.)