Which one to buy: UpTone USB REGEN or Intona USB Isolator?

[andy nicholson]

After a week or more of agony with the one HP-Z800 Workstation to get the Intona/Mutec combo going, gave up. I bet the new ASIO driver conflicted with the RME card, that's why there's the trouble.

 

 

Hauled out of the dust, a Sony Vaio Dual Core T-9600(?) Win7 Home Premium laptop, and ran as source. No drama, worked right out of the box, two years laying dormant. Woohoo! I liked what I heard, stayed up a few nights very late listening, well worth it.

 

 

The Sony's replacement arrived last week, a Lenovo m93p, tiny thing it really is, a little less than a Mac mini in size, except the power supply is rather half the size...! That machine also accepted the Intona/Mutec combo with any cable I could throw at it, finally settled on Nordost Blue Heaven input and output. Sound is just superb!

 

 

Technology doesn't sit still, great minds must think alike and develop ideas at the same time. Mutec have released their USB to 5 way AES3, S/PDIF, AES3id, Optical et al converter, Mutec MC-3 + USB. This device isolates the USB to the other outputs to 2500V. Throw in a super clocking mechanism discussed here at CA of a sister product, and there's one less cable to buy...! USB straight into the Mutec and out with super reclocking, yum. Does this get any better?

 

 

Mutec MC-3 + USB.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]23639[/ATTACH]

 

I can concur with everything you quote re the Mutec MC3+USB. Everything listed in my signature worked together without a hitch. My Genelec 8351's have never sounded more open & revealing, with a spectacularly dark bass.

[Audioclyde]

I run Win 2012 Standard R2 OS + Audiophile Optimizer software without any problems with the Intona. So the Intona is definately Win 2012 compatible.

 

Adam, that's my setup as well--however, I am running it on bootcamp partition of a Mac Mini....don't know if that could be an issue or not. I'm hoping to try the various suggestions in this thread, as well as do the USB stick test that Daniel of Intona has asked me to do, this weekend.

[tubesound]

The Sony's replacement arrived last week, a Lenovo m93p, tiny thing it really is, a little less than a Mac mini in size, except the power supply is rather half the size...! That machine also accepted the Intona/Mutec combo with any cable I could throw at it, finally settled on Nordost Blue Heaven input and output. Sound is just superb!

 

 

Technology doesn't sit still, great minds must think alike and develop ideas at the same time. Mutec have released their USB to 5 way AES3, S/PDIF, AES3id, Optical et al converter, Mutec MC-3 + USB. This device isolates the USB to the other outputs to 2500V. Throw in a super clocking mechanism discussed here at CA of a sister product, and there's one less cable to buy...! USB straight into the Mutec and out with super reclocking, yum. Does this get any better?

 

Sounds like Mutec MC3+ USB does galvanic isolation at the i2s level. Intona's upstream isolation still provides benefits.

[joelha]

Sounds like Mutec MC3+ USB does galvanic isolation at the i2s level. Intona's upstream isolation still provides benefits.

 

 

I agree. I'm using the Mutec MC-3+ USB together with the Intona and the Intona absolutely adds a nice benefit. The only issue is that I do need my Regen to make a proper connection between the Intona Isolator and the Mutec MC-3+ USB. I'm using a Kubala-Sosna Realization USB cable.

 

I just want to confirm that for those who have made a connection between the Intona and the Mutec, you didn't need the Regen or a powered USB hub to do it? Any tricks to making the connection work?

 

I really don't want to ditch the USB cable I'm using for another one.

 

Thanks,

 

Joel

[Superdad]

Mutec has NO usb input and output (like the Intona or Regen). It is just a bit more advanced USB to SPDIF converter.

 

I'm sorry Adam, but this is just not quite accurate. First of all, there is absolutely a need to isolate the USB interface to prevent HF interference from the computer affecting the signal processing and causing jitter and noise problems. Also, the MUTEC MC-3+ Smart Clock USB is a USB interface, audiophile re-clocker, 10 MHz ready master clock, DDC (digital-to-digital converter), and digital switching matrix. So calling it "just a bit more advanced USB to SPDIF converter" is a bit of an understatement to say the least.

 

Best regards,

Julian

 

Hi Julian:

 

The MC-3+ looks to be a VERY fine product, but I think you misunderstand what Adam meant. Since the Mutec does not offer a USB output, it is not useful to people with USB input DACs.

 

(And this thread is not the place to rehash arguments with regards to whether USB or S/PDIF is the more desirable input to a DAC; though just because the Mutec or other converter can produce a excellent integrated-clock S/PDIF signal, does not mean the DAC's own receiver and handling of it is of equal quality.)

 

-------------

 

For various reasons I have not posted at all in this thread, even though REGEN is in the title. Yet by the way, I too bought an Intona--s/n 53--(though it needs firmware upgrade as it is very finicky with my XMOS-input DACs and some cables).

 

Just to be clear though, the Intona's sole and very effective (audio-interest) function of galvanic isolation does not duplicate or obviate the REGEN's function of improving USB signal integrity and impedance match (or the REGEN's secondary function of providing very clean VBUS power to DACs that need it).

 

And given that the Intona has a single clock oscillator--located on the dirty input side--for the entire device (for both PHY chips, both FPGAs, and fed over the isolator), and that the SilLabs TX/RX RF-type isolator and the FPGAs each add jitter (350ps for the SiLabs alone), the output of the Intona really does benefit from the clean reclocking/generation of the USB signal the REGEN offers.

 

Thus the ideal set-up (short of having a galvanically isolated version of the REGEN) is to place the Intona before a REGEN. Then you get the unique benefits of both. That's what I think quite a few folks are doing--with stellar results.

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

[Joaovieira]

Thus the ideal set-up (short of having a galvanically isolated version of the REGEN) is to place the Intona before a REGEN. Then you get the unique benefits of both. That's what I think quite a few folks are doing--with stellar results.

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

 

That is exactly what I am expecting here. Thank you for posting.

[tubesound]

For various reasons I have not posted at all in this thread, even though REGEN is in the title. Yet by the way, I too bought an Intona--s/n 53--(though it needs firmware upgrade as it is very finicky with my XMOS-input DACs and some cables).

 

Just to be clear though, the Intona's sole and very effective (audio-interest) function of galvanic isolation does not duplicate or obviate the REGEN's function of improving USB signal integrity and impedance match (or the REGEN's secondary function of providing very clean VBUS power to DACs that need it).

 

And given that the Intona has a single clock oscillator--located on the dirty input side--for the entire device (for both PHY chips, both FPGAs, and fed over the isolator), and that the SilLabs TX/RX RF-type isolator and the FPGAs each add jitter (350ps for the SiLabs alone), the output of the Intona really does benefit from the clean reclocking/generation of the USB signal the REGEN offers.

 

Thus the ideal set-up (short of having a galvanically isolated version of the REGEN) is to place the Intona before a REGEN. Then you get the unique benefits of both. That's what I think quite a few folks are doing--with stellar results.

 

Intona deals with packet noise and impedance matching too.

 

This post reported he preferred Intona alone to the (REGEN+Intona) combo: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/which-one-buy-uptone-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-regen-or-intona-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-isolator-26815/index5.html#post498892

 

Another post said Intona bettered his REGEN with Neutron Star Clock mod: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/which-one-buy-uptone-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-regen-or-intona-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-isolator-26815/index8.html#post502815

[davidian]

Today I received my USB Hi-Speed Isolator Standard and I plugged it in like this:

 

 

Mac Pro > A+ > Audioquest Forest USB > HRT Streamer HD > (Amp+Speakers) >Forza Audioworks FAW Copper Series USB > USB Hi-Speed Isolator Standard

 

 

 

 

First impressions are: a lot of the top end edginess and digititis layer of the HRT where drastically reduced, I fell there is more air between the instruments, the overall sound is more organic… so far

so good!

[tubesound]

Today I received my USB Hi-Speed Isolator Standard and I plugged it in like this:

 

Mac Pro > A+ > Audioquest Forest USB > HRT Streamer HD > (Amp+Speakers) >Forza Audioworks FAW Copper Series USB > USB Hi-Speed Isolator Standard

 

Any typo here? Why Intona is sitting at the end of the chain?

[davidian]

Any typo here? Why Intona is sitting at the end of the chain?

 

Ups, sorry for that...

 

Mac Pro > A+ > Audioquest Forest USB > USB Hi-Speed Isolator Standard > Forza Audioworks FAW Copper Series USB > HRT Streamer HD > (Amp+Speakers)

[Evo1668]

Ups, sorry for that...

 

Mac Pro > A+ > Audioquest Forest USB > USB Hi-Speed Isolator Standard > Forza Audioworks FAW Copper Series USB > HRT Streamer HD > (Amp+Speakers)

 

My Intona arrived yesterday, and using the following setup.....

Mac Mini (boot camp ) --> Curious 0.8 --> Intona --> Curious link--> Regen -->>Curious Link --> Zodiac DAC ..sounds absolutely fabulous. Listening to the 11 year old Joey Alexander (My Favourite Things) playing piano. This kid is something else ......expletive......incredible!

 

I have not not been able to run the Intona as sole replacement to the Regen with my current Curious cables. But positioned before the Regen, certainly to my ears, compliment each other. I will try some of my other USB cables to see if I can get the Intona working between computer and DAC on its own.....for another time, me thinks

[devs]

Yesterday I received the Intona (industrial version, with the 'not flashing LED' mod). Haven't found the time yet to listen with it but I did test if it works and it did: plug&play, no issue at all!

 

This was using the non-optimized Windows 10 Pro partition on my music server which I use for video playback. A second disk partition contains the W2012+AO etc. OS and software. I know I'll have to switch back to GUI from Core and back again once to allow the system to learn the new location of the Devialet (the Regen is recognized as a USB hub and is now out of the chain) so will do this later when I have more time, followed by some serious listening of course.

 

Just for easy reference, I'll repeat the chain:

 

Music server with JCAT USB PCIe interface (powered by JCAT battery PSU) -> Curious 0.8m USB cable -> Intona -> Curious 0.2m USB cable (Regen link) -> Devialet 250.

NB. the JCAT battery PSU powers the JCAT USB card which then injects 5V power from this battery into the Intona as well. So it's not powered by the mainboard. I don't currently use the voltage regulator on the JCAT for the 5V.

 

To be continued for listening impressions.

 

Quoting myself. I switched W2012R2 back to GUI mode to let the system learn the new USB location of my Devialet. Then back to core mode, all went OK as expected.

 

During critical listening however I unfortunately did find there is an issue in my setup with the Intona. There are ticks and pops in the music. These are scarce when playing 44.1/16 material but as the bitrate rises the ticks&pops occur more often.

 

Today I took the time to troubleshoot the issue and I found a workaround. I first focussed on the software side of things (even though my config was fine like this without the Intona). Whatever I did I couldn't prevent the ticks&pops. So over the hardware side of things.

 

My findings:

 

server -> Curious 0.8m -> Intona -> Curious 0.2m USB cable -> DAC = NOT OK

server -> Supra USB 1m -> Intona -> Curious 0.2m USB cable - DAC = NOT OK

server -> Curious 0.8m -> DAC = OK

server -> Curious 0.8m -> Intona -> Supra 1m USB cable - DAC = OK

server -> Curious 0.2m -> Intona -> Curious 0.8m -> DAC = OK

So summing up, all is OK as long as I don't use the short Curious 0.2m cable (=Regen Link) between the Devialet (=DAC) and the Intona. The short Curious does work on the other side of the Intona so between the server and Intona.

 

With the Regen there never was an issue using the same cables so I'm suspecting the Intona to be too sensitive. I might contact Intona about this later although I feel it may be a bit unfair to trouble them with the issue since a Supra cable, which I suspect follows the USB 2.0 specs better, does work.

[cmarin]

Quoting myself. I switched W2012R2 back to GUI mode to let the system learn the new USB location of my Devialet. Then back to core mode, all went OK as expected.

 

During critical listening however I unfortunately did find there is an issue in my setup with the Intona. There are ticks and pops in the music. These are scarce when playing 44.1/16 material but as the bitrate rises the ticks&pops occur more often.

 

Today I took the time to troubleshoot the issue and I found a workaround. I first focussed on the software side of things (even though my config was fine like this without the Intona). Whatever I did I couldn't prevent the ticks&pops. So over the hardware side of things.

 

My findings:

 

server -> Curious 0.8m -> Intona -> Curious 0.2m USB cable -> DAC = NOT OK

server -> Supra USB 1m -> Intona -> Curious 0.2m USB cable - DAC = NOT OK

server -> Curious 0.8m -> DAC = OK

server -> Curious 0.8m -> Intona -> Supra 1m USB cable - DAC = OK

server -> Curious 0.2m -> Intona -> Curious 0.8m -> DAC = OK

So summing up, all is OK as long as I don't use the short Curious 0.2m cable (=Regen Link) between the Devialet (=DAC) and the Intona. The short Curious does work on the other side of the Intona so between the server and Intona.

 

With the Regen there never was an issue using the same cables so I'm suspecting the Intona to be too sensitive. I might contact Intona about this later although I feel it may be a bit unfair to trouble them with the issue since a Supra cable, which I suspect follows the USB 2.0 specs better, does work.

 

Devs,

 

Thank you for sharing your findings. Other than the tics and pops, did you hear any other difference in the sound quality between the 0.8m>Intona>0.2m>DAC and 0.2m>Intona>0.8m>DAC configurations?

[Elberoth]

Just to be clear though, the Intona's sole and very effective (audio-interest) function of galvanic isolation does not duplicate or obviate the REGEN's function of improving USB signal integrity and impedance match (or the REGEN's secondary function of providing very clean VBUS power to DACs that need it).

 

It is possible. In some cases (DACs that need Vbus power) Regen may actually be mandatory to make them work, due to limited current supply and voltage drop introduced by Intona.

[One and a half]

 

I just want to confirm that for those who have made a connection between the Intona and the Mutec, you didn't need the Regen or a powered USB hub to do it? Any tricks to making the connection work?

 

I really don't want to ditch the USB cable I'm using for another one.

 

Thanks,

 

Joel

 

I'm not sure of the firmware version of the Intona you have and the one at home, let's say they are the same batch. I tried quite a few cables, from the very short & cheap 0.5m Lindy cables to 1m Nordost Blue Heaven. On the machine I had driver troubles with, a hub worked, but a reboot caused that to fall in a heap, the powered hub soon vanished. When the Oyaide continentals were used, the signal dropped totally on a proper working machine.

 

I had better results in changing the cabling with the power off even pulling out the computer's power cable just to be sure. Changing cables live had mixed results and not generally a good idea to have the player operating while live cable testing is performed.

 

The difficulty most likely can be overcome with a firmware upgrade, not sure how this can be accomplished, user download would be good, like a .bin file loaded via usb input and a simple exe. Perhaps Intona can chime in on how this can be accomplished, without sending the Intona back to Germany.

[bensim09]

My setup is: MacBook Pro + wireworld platinium + intona + regen link smal cable + regen + curious USB 0.2 + aqvox ps + audiophileo + i.AM.D v200 chinese digital amp.

 

the sound is really good but intona on its own is,from my point on view, the main contributor to the overal sound Quality. With the regen, the sound is even sweeter but a little dark and less airy.

 

when used with the regen, the green led light stay ON permanentely wich means there is a fimware or power supply default. When i disonect the regen from the audiophileo the led flashes as intended. But ,even more strange, when i remove the regen from the chain, the intona is so connected directly to the audiophileo and the Green led flash ???

[johndoe21ro]

It is possible. In some cases (DACs that need Vbus power) Regen may actually be mandatory to make them work, due to limited current supply and voltage drop introduced by Intona.

 

 

Adam, you didn't say anything about your listening experience with Intona.

I'd love to use one in my system together with 2 AQ Diamond USB cables (0.75m each, before and after the Intona) but I'm not ready for a failure so I'm waiting for things to settle down.

[cmarin]

In order to facilitate placement of the Intona on my rack, I tried reversing the order of the sequence of the curious cables/Intona from:

 

Server>1.0m >Intona>0.2m>Berkeley USB Converter>DAC

 

To:

Server>0.2m>Intona>1.0m>Berkeley USB Converter>DAC

 

Unfortunately, placing the smaller curious cable before the Intona didn't work. I went back to the original setup and it continued to work without problems.

[PhilR]

In order to facilitate placement of the Intona on my rack, I tried reversing the order of the sequence of the curious cables/Intona from:

 

Server>1.0m >Intona>0.2m>Berkeley USB Converter>DAC

 

To:

Server>0.2m>Intona>1.0m>Berkeley USB Converter>DAC

 

Unfortunately, placing the smaller curious cable before the Intona didn't work. I went back to the original setup and it continued to work without problems.

 

I just re-tried both of your configurations with my identical Curious Cables, server, and Berkeley USB converter, neither worked. Is there a particular start-up sequence you are using to turn on your server and Berkeley? Or does your first setup work when the Itona is plugged in no matter what is powered on?

[cmarin]

I just re-tried both of your configurations with my identical Curious Cables, server, and Berkeley USB converter, neither worked. Is there a particular start-up sequence you are using to turn on your server and Berkeley? Or does your first setup work when the Itona is plugged in no matter what is powered on?

 

 

I don't use a specific sequence since my DAC and server are on most of the time.

 

In today's case, DAC and server were already on. I removed the Berkeley USB power cord in order to more easily disconnect the curious cables and reconnected them in the alternate configuration (shorter curious cable before the Intona).

 

When I turned on the USB converter and tried playing a song, JRiver gave an error message stating something was wrong with playback.

 

So turned off the server, left DAC and USB converter on, reconfigured the cables in the original mode, turned the server back on and voilà, JRiver was able to play music.

 

So DAC and converter were on first, then turned the server on last. This sequence worked.

 

However, I'm not sure the issue was with the startup sequence but rather with the swapping out of the curious cables in the different configuration. In the past, when I've accidentally disconnected the power to the USB converter, reconnecting the power cord did not affect playback. I was able to simply hit the play button on JRiver without restarting the server.

 

Hope this helps.

[Elberoth]

The problems you experience with those Curious USB cables suggest they must be seriously out of spec.

[sandyk]

The problems you experience with those Curious USB cables suggest they must be seriously out of spec.

 

You're a braver man than I am, Gunga Din!

[cmarin]

The problems you experience with those Curious USB cables suggest they must be seriously out of spec.

 

Hi Adam,

 

You are correct my friend.

 

And as you well know, we are involved in a hobby with what sometimes appears to be an endless set of frustrations. So when things work out, such as the sound quality resulting from introducing the curious cables with the Intona, even if you have to try out different configurations to make things work, it is well worth the effort!

[One and a half]

In trying to debug the Curious cable edginess, I thought that the cable was wired wrong, or there's a partial short circuit, something else, so time for a bench test.

For the test, 2 old USB cables were cannabilised with flying leads out to test. It would be simple to disconnect and leave the curious cable intact. I don't have an impedance (RLC) meter or milliohm tester, just a DMM, but let's see.

The Curious 0.8m cable, both of them were wired correctly, so +5V Vbus, GND and the differential pair passed through OK. The USB shell did not go through, was disconnected. Hmm, 10M Ohm +, so open circuit.

 

Checked the Lenovo m93P computer's USB USB2 shell (power off) and to earth was 0.98M Ohm, similarly, the "GND" connection of the DC power supply connector was also 0.9M Ohm above ground. So the USB system floats above earth, OK, move on.

There is no direct connection between the Input and Output USB shells of the Intona. The USB shell on the HP Z800 is connected directly to earth, so computers do vary.

 

When the Curious cable connects to the Lenovo, the USB shell floats above ground at the input to the Intona. The output of the Intona connected to the Mutec and there the USB shell is grounded to earth (0.1 Ohm) utilising the earth connection from the AC Power cable.

 

This means, the shield in the Curious Cable's shield is floating above earth, and depending on the capacitances in the system can couple quite a bit of crud to the Intona where (my guess) is summarily rejected. The Intona then flashes slow and the DAC is not found. I even bypassed the Intona and connected to the Mutec directly with the Curious cable and it still didn't work. HQPlayer would not accept any file to drag and drop and then the sample rate shown is a blank, so nothing will happen.

 

I tested a fistful of generic USB A to USB B, Mini, Micro, left overs from hard drives, phones and the like. The resistance of the shell from end to end varied about as much as the price at the fuel pump to fill up your car. No consistency at all, varying from tens of Ohms to 400k to open circuit. Both the Oyaide Continental USB and Nordost Blue Heaven USB cables passed the shield through with no resistance, the latter I've good results with the Intona 100% connection rate every time, and consistently has very good SQ. The Oyaide is temperamental, and it's shorter, not sure what's going on there without the test equipment to verify.

 

For those of you with problems, perhaps the cure is to find a cable that has the shell continuous. How to find.....

 

This is an extract from a TI data sheet on testing of USB cables worth the read and transcribed here.

 

5.2 USB Cables and Connectors

When sending full speed signaling, USB cables rely on the shielding integrity of the cable and connector

shield. Field tests with 65% braid show no measurable leakage through the shield. However, the shield

must be carefully terminated to the connector. Most shielding failures can be traced to improper

termination of the cable shield to the connector or connector shell to the receptacle. Full speed USB cables

are specified to have a woven or spirally wound copper shield. Such a shield can be crimped to the

connector shell yielding 3600 shield coverage at the connector. The use of a foil shield with a drain wire is

not recommended due to the series inductance of the drain wire and the tendency of foil to crack with

cable flexing. Low speed USB cables are not required to have shielding or to maintain a specified

impedance.

 

USB receptacles should maintain high quality shielding and a low RF impedance between the receptacle

shell and the mating connector on the cable. This may be accomplished by means of multiple wiping

contacts on the inside of the receptacle’s shell. A minimum of four contact points is recommended. A high

degree of shielding may be achieved by enclosing the sides, top, and back of the connector with a metal shell. The shell should be provided with a low impedance connection to signal ground and, in cases where a metal chassis is present, a means of accepting a metal EMI gasket clip.

[Superdad]

For those of you with problems, perhaps the cure is to find a cable that has the shell continuous. How to find.....

 

That is all quite interesting, but it does not explain or justify why the Intona isolator is so sensitive and particular about USB cables.

 

I too have a drawer full of stock Belkin Gold and other quite standard cables, and for the life of me can not get my Intona unit to work with my XMOS-input DAC without a REGEN betWeen the Intona and the DAC. And even with the REGEN in, if I try to use the Curious cable I can not get the DAC recognized as able to do anything beyond 96KHz (USB 1.1 Full Speed). Rather frustrating.