Which one to buy: UpTone USB REGEN or Intona USB Isolator?

[One and a half]

Correction to above post, the Oyaide Continental USB A to B works with the Intona, full loom.

 

Cables with shields at one end only advice from marce. I suspect this to be the case with the Curious Cables.

[One and a half]

That is all quite interesting, but it does not explain or justify why the Intona isolator is so sensitive and particular about USB cables.

 

I too have a drawer full of stock Belkin Gold and other quite standard cables, and for the life of me can not get my Intona unit to work with my XMOS-input DAC without a REGEN betWeen the Intona and the DAC. And even with the REGEN in, if I try to use the Curious cable I can not get the DAC recognized as able to do anything beyond 96KHz (USB 1.1 Full Speed). Rather frustrating.

 

If the cables have imperfect shields, then they may as well be antennas. But you subscribe to float everything above ground, I don't need to convince.

 

Daniel from Intona is working on the solution as far as the handshaking is concerned. Is it possible to borrow your scope from JS to look at the data for crud with a scope? Or a USB analyser?

[Elberoth]

That is all quite interesting, but it does not explain or justify why the Intona isolator is so sensitive and particular about USB cables.

 

I too have a drawer full of stock Belkin Gold and other quite standard cables, and for the life of me can not get my Intona unit to work with my XMOS-input DAC without a REGEN betWeen the Intona and the DAC. And even with the REGEN in, if I try to use the Curious cable I can not get the DAC recognized as able to do anything beyond 96KHz (USB 1.1 Full Speed). Rather frustrating.

 

Maybe your XMOS based DAC needs more power Intona is able to provide ?

[lmitche]

The past "snowy" weekend in New England gave me some time to listen to my "PeterSt of Phasure" version of the Intona in combination with the Green and Amber REGEN powered by various sources into the Auralic Vega DAC. Three Supra cables were used to test. There have been zero connectivity issues with the Supras and the Intona. VBUS +5volts was eliminated on the DAC sides of both the Intona and REGEN.

 

First an "el cheapo" /Sbooster REGEN LPS combo was tested as power source for the REGEN. This resulted in a tradeoff. While the sound was less grainy and more natural, the prodigious bass was reduced. Hmmm...

 

I realized that a ground loop was possible with this configuration. Isn't the point of the Intona to provide isolation?

 

So the LPS was replaced with a 5volt mobile phone auxiliary battery. Wowser! The bass was now restored along with the benefit of the natural sound provided by the REGEN. The surprise was an increase in depth. The result was the best sound ever achieved in my system!

 

Swapping the Green and Amber REGEN had little, if any impact on SQ.

 

Batteries are not my favorite long term solution, but I accept the compromise until a better isolated power source can be found.

 

If anyone has ideas for a better isolated power solution then batteries, I'm all ears .

[Superdad]

Maybe your XMOS based DAC needs more power Intona is able to provide ?

 

Actually, my XMOS-input DACs do not require ANY 5VBUS (can tape pin-1 if desired).

 

 

So the LPS was replaced with a 5volt mobile phone auxiliary battery. Wowser! The bass was now restored along with the benefit of the natural sound provided by the REGEN. The surprise was an increase in depth. The result was the best sound ever achieved in my system!

 

 

Swapping the Green and Amber REGEN had little, if any impact on SQ.

 

So Larry, are you saying that you prefer the combo of the Intona feeding the REGEN over just the Intona alone? Given that the title of this thread sets up what I have contended is a false dichotomy between two devices which serve different functions, it would be good to read a bit more about what you hear with and without them paired.

 

BTW, it is zero surprise that when used with the Intona there is not a perceptible difference between the very early original "green" (LED) REGEN and the "amber" production. As always disclosed, the "amber" just added resistance to the REGEN's USB input ground and shield (diverting some ground noise currents elsewhere). But with the full galvanic isolation from the Intona, that diversion is 100% and the extra resistance on the REGEN's ground is irrelevant.

 

Funny thing is, much of what I hear with the Intona is a greater amount of the same sort of improvement we heard between the REGEN green and amber--for both most especially in the bass (which I still don't understand why it is so profound there).

At the time we were working on the original REGEN (late 2014), John and I had an in-depth discussion of what it would take to do a version with full galvanic isolation. Dual PHY chips, an FPGA or two, two power supplies, etc.--similar to what Intona has done. We even looked into availability and licensing of a high-speed USB2.0 hub core (code to embed in an FPGA). It would all have been costly the way we would have wanted to do it, and we dropped the whole thing once we added the resistors to go from the "green" to "amber" (and given the success of 2015 it was the right thing to do at the time).

 

 

Does anyone here know how firmware updates of the Intona are accomplished? I am assuming that the unit needs to ship back to Germany for the procedure. Guess I'll wait a little while and let them get everything sorted before asking to send mine. Don't want to do it more than once.

 

Ciao,

--Alex C.

[lmitche]

 

So Larry, are you saying that you prefer the combo of the Intona feeding the REGEN over just the Intona alone? Given that the title of this thread sets up what I have contended is a false dichotomy between two devices which serve different functions, it would be good to read a bit more about what you hear with and without them paired.

 

Hi Alex,

 

Yes, my listening tests concur with your contention that there is a false dichotomy here.

 

As I wrote before, powering the REGEN from a LPS (sbooster regen + el-cheapo) placed behind the Intona is a trade-off, better SQ in some dimensions, worse in others, with the result of slightly diminished overall SQ, most noticeably in bass extension.

 

However the Intona + REGEN + Battery yields the best SQ ever. Clearly adding the benefits of the REGEN, and preserving the improvements brought by the Intona isolation results in a great combination. The impact is most noticeable in better timber/harmonics and depth, which both hit new levels. And the bass improvement from the Intona is still there.

 

The increased timber and depth is very noticeable on acoustic guitar recordings. For example, on Fleetwood Mac's Rumors album 96khz, the two guitars on "Never Going Back Again", just sparkle, and pop into the room with a much improved 3 dimensional image and incredible clarity.

 

Way cool. Now if I can just find a substitute for that damn battery!

 

Larry

[Superdad]

Now if I can just find a substitute for that damn battery!

 

Thanks for the details Larry.

As for that last request, well you know we are hard at work on that:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/uptone-audio-regen-power-supply-add-24963/index16.html#post468055, with a more recent update from John here: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f27-uptone-audio-sponsored/uptone-audio-regen-power-supply-add-24963/index21.html#post497891

[Audioclyde]

Does anyone here know how firmware updates of the Intona are accomplished? I am assuming that the unit needs to ship back to Germany for the procedure. Guess I'll wait a little while and let them get everything sorted before asking to send mine. Don't want to do it more than once.

 

Ciao,

--Alex C.

 

Alex, I've been advised by Daniel that a firmware update will require that the Intona be opened up and reprogrammed using a 'special programmer', so I take that to mean units will indeed have to be shipped back....

 

Best,

 

Randy

[ElviaCaprice]

The past "snowy" weekend in New England gave me some time to listen to my "PeterSt of Phasure" version of the Intona in combination with the Green and Amber REGEN powered by various sources into the Auralic Vega DAC. Three Supra cables were used to test. There have been zero connectivity issues with the Supras and the Intona. VBUS +5volts was eliminated on the DAC sides of both the Intona and REGEN.

 

First an "el cheapo" /Sbooster REGEN LPS combo was tested as power source for the REGEN. This resulted in a tradeoff. While the sound was less grainy and more natural, the prodigious bass was reduced. Hmmm...

 

I realized that a ground loop was possible with this configuration. Isn't the point of the Intona to provide isolation?

 

So the LPS was replaced with a 5volt mobile phone auxiliary battery. Wowser! The bass was now restored along with the benefit of the natural sound provided by the REGEN. The surprise was an increase in depth. The result was the best sound ever achieved in my system!

 

Swapping the Green and Amber REGEN had little, if any impact on SQ.

 

Batteries are not my favorite long term solution, but I accept the compromise until a better isolated power source can be found.

 

If anyone has ideas for a better isolated power solution then batteries, I'm all ears .

 

Thank you Larry for your impressions and experimentation with the Intona/Regen.

 

I plan on doing the JKenny battery power with the Regen come February, along with a newly ordered Intona. I stipulated to send the Intona once a new firmware is completed. Plan to use the Intona/Jkenny Regen with my Chord Hugo (no 5V required).

[peabreu]

Just received the Intona and with a cheap usb from macmini to intona and my TotalDac D1 from intona to the Chord Hugo, no problems what so ever and immediately the results were nothing short of amazing... anyone with an Hugo should check the Intona, you will not regret for sure!... still in disbelief in the magnitude of the effect...

[ElviaCaprice]

Just received the Intona and with a cheap usb from macmini to intona and my TotalDac D1 from intona to the Chord Hugo, no problems what so ever and immediately the results were nothing short of amazing... anyone with an Hugo should check the Intona, you will not regret for sure!... still in disbelief in the magnitude of the effect...

 

Thanks, great to hear, peabreu.

[lmitche]

Thanks ElviaCaprice, I look forward to learning if your experience matches or exceeds mine here.

[tubesound]

Just received the Intona and with a cheap usb from macmini to intona and my TotalDac D1 from intona to the Chord Hugo, no problems what so ever and immediately the results were nothing short of amazing... anyone with an Hugo should check the Intona, you will not regret for sure!... still in disbelief in the magnitude of the effect...

 

How does Intona+D1 combo compare to Intona alone?

[peabreu]

Well I did not test as the D1 is the only good USB cable I have to connect the Hugo (terminated by TotalDac with micro USB). What I can say is that inserting the intona in the system yielded much more than I could have imagined... it is one of those cases where now I could not get back if I had to. The sound was very good but now is significantly better in all spectrum from lows to highs and even the speed increased. If before I always thought that people stating the Hugo is lean should have some sort of problem in the system, now my previous opinion is highly reeinforced. The intona does give wings to the Hugo. An improvement was clearly expectable because the Hugo has no galvanic isolation but the gains far exceed my best expectations.

[genjamon]

I got a Regen Amber back in late June/early July. It was an immediate benefit. I found upgrading to a nice LPS made a really solid added improvement. I had a USB cable that didn't even carry the 5V wire, since my DAC didn't need it. Regen was still a nice improvement.

 

Then I upgraded DAC's to from Lampizator L4+/G4 to a Lampizator Big7. I also got some Audioquest Jitterbugs and put them on my Auralic Aries. I decided one day to play with Regen again, and actually found it no longer made a positive contribution, but in fact harmed the sound a bit. Fuzzier, with less clarity. I also had just ordered the Curious Cable .8M and the Regen link. Those arrived just as I was realizing Regen was no longer a benefit. I gave Regen a shot with the Curious Cables, and it still wasn't an improvement. Curious Cable was a very nice improvement in clarity and in body/tone and realism, though.

 

Then I saw this Intona thread and another. Thought I'd give it a try. Well, it works great in my system and is an obvious improvement - using both Curious Cables. I'm loving my sound now - best I've heard at home to-date by a mile. Real synergy and enjoyment in spades.

 

But I still have the Regen and quality LPS around. Since I saw this thread, I plugged the Regen into the system this morning to have it and the power supply warming up all day while I'm at work. I should have time this evening to do some comparisons with and without Regen. The only problem is that it's not a complete apples to apples comparison. For that, I'd need one more Curious Cable Regen link. Right now, it's the longer Curious cable from Aries to Intona, and the Curious link from Intona to Regen, and Regen into the DAC using the stock adapter that came with the Regen. I found that adapter to be inferior to the Curious link when I swapped those back and forth. But not a HUGE difference, more minor. I'll try to factor that into my impressions, but won't be able to do so with complete accuracy, of course.

 

Also, BTW, I did test whether the Jitterbugs were still necessary with the Intona in the picture. Well, they are, they certainly are. My suspicion is that the Aries produces some internal noise that is affecting its USB output circuitry and the quality of data processing there. I bet if you could isolate and power the USB output circuitry with its own low noise LPS, maybe the Jitterbugs would no longer make much difference. I guess that's the advantage of a purpose-built C.A.P.S. or other higher end audio server - attention to that kind of detail. Oh well, the Jitterbugs still do a good job and probably deal with 90% of the issue.

[lmitche]

I also got some Audioquest Jitterbugs and put them on my Auralic Aries.

 

Are the Jitterbugs serially connected from the Aries to the Intona or in unused usb ports? or both?

[Glisse]

That is all quite interesting, but it does not explain or justify why the Intona isolator is so sensitive and particular about USB cables.

 

I too have a drawer full of stock Belkin Gold and other quite standard cables, and for the life of me can not get my Intona unit to work with my XMOS-input DAC without a REGEN betWeen the Intona and the DAC. And even with the REGEN in, if I try to use the Curious cable I can not get the DAC recognized as able to do anything beyond 96KHz (USB 1.1 Full Speed). Rather frustrating.

 

Alex,

You should try using the USB A/B adapter you provide with the REGEN to connect the Intona directly to your DACs that use an XMOS USB input, rather than a USB cable (any USB cable).

Regards,

Glisse

[genjamon]

Are the Jitterbugs serially connected from the Aries to the Intona or in unused usb ports? or both?

 

I have them in both the Aries ports.

[Superdad]

Alex,

You should try using the USB A/B adapter you provide with the REGEN to connect the Intona directly to your DACs that use an XMOS USB input, rather than a USB cable (any USB cable).

Regards,

Glisse

 

Thanks Glisse. I can try, but that will be physically very awkward. The Intona box is a LOT bigger than a little REGEN.

[genjamon]

Ok, here's my update after last night's listening session. I listened to a range of my music over about an hour and a half. The rest of the system is Auralic Aries -> Curious Cable -> Intona -> Curious Regen link -> Regen/adapter -> Lampizator Big7 -> Tortuga passive volume control -> Line Magnetic 518ia (used only as power amp, bypassing the preamp stage) -> Daedalus DA-RMa V2 speakers

 

My impressions with the Regen/adapter in and out of the system are as follows.

 

Regen imparted a bit cleaner sound, instruments were more cleanly delineated. However, it also added a hardness to the sound that was ultimately dis-engaging in terms of musical enjoyment. The music "flowed" with more realism and expressiveness without the Regen in the system. Also, Regen tipped up the timbre of the presentation just a touch, resulting in less weight in the lower registers and making some instruments sound less realistic, and more like reproduced sound than the real thing.

 

I'm wondering if I had another Curious Regen link to go between Regen and Lampi if the hardness and timbre issues would go away. I have a feeling they might. But I'd have to order another link to explore that issue. I'll have to consider whether I want to take that plunge. Right now, without the Regen, my system is wholly engaging, with toes continuously tapping and an addictive quality to the sound. I'm not sure I want to mess with that, to be honest.

[lmitche]

How did you power the REGEN in last nights test?

[genjamon]

How did you power the REGEN in last nights test?

 

Regen was powered by a high quality LPS from Anand, a.k.a. poseidonsvoice over on Audiocircle.

 

Power conditioning is a fully decked out SurgeX from Zenwave Audio, along with all Zenwave power cabling with Furutech FI-50 connectors. And all Furutech GTX-D rhodium outlets in the power conditioner as well as wall outlet. I'm HIGHLY committed to clean power.

 

I would note that this LPS from Anand easily bested the stock SMPS and also bested the Ebay LPS for $80 or whatever that uses an R-core transformer. I'm not going to say it's the best ever, but it's definitely in the realm of high quality LPS's out there.

 

I would also note that before Intona, when I put the Regen back in the system, I found Regen added some "fuzz" to the sound, that it in fact did kind of the opposite of what I heard last night. So, Regen is not imparting the same effects in my system with and without Intona.

 

Also, I'd note that these are fairly subtle changes that the Regen imparted last night. But just enough to significantly impact my musical enjoyment. I've found as my system has gotten more and more refined, that little tweaks can have quite major impacts on overall musical enjoyment, even if the changes I'm hearing on A/B comparisons seem rather small.

[lmitche]

Interesting, thanks genjamon. You may want to try powering the REGEN behind the Intona with a battery to preserve Galvanic Isolation.

[sandyk]

Interesting, thanks genjamon. You may want to try powering the REGEN behind the Intona with a battery to preserve Galvanic Isolation.

 

+1

[Evo1668]

+1

Question I was wondering if anyone has compared this scenario?

How does a battery powered Regen, compare to a Regen powered by the JS-2. I am unable to use the Intona on its own between my Mac mini and DAC. I use the Regen after the Intona, powered by a JS-2.