Article: Schiit Audio Yggdrasil Multibit DAC Review

[Jud]

Jud, I'm sorry but I have no idea who Miska is? What is the name of his production DAC? Is it a Stereophile Class A+ rated component like John Siau's of Benchmark Audio? The acclaimed DAC designer and writer of paper you so casually dismiss.

 

Computer Audiophile - Miska - Blogs

 

He's the developer of HQPlayer, which the Roon folks have chosen as the signal processing back end for their software.

 

John Siau makes a widely praised DAC, and I certainly don't have anything bad to say about it. He's not alone in his dislike of DSD, and is probably not as vehement about it as Charles Hansen of Ayre. In fact, pertinent to the original topic, Mike Moffat, the designer of the Yggdrasil, the inventor of the DAC as a separate piece of equipment, and someone I greatly respect, also is on record as not liking DSD - thus the fact that the Yggy, unlike nearly all other DACs on the market, lacks a final sigma-delta modulator stage and converts straight from PCM to analog.

 

John Siau may be unique, however, in the lengths he will go to in attempting to say DSD is a bad thing. For example, he calls the result of the sigma-delta modulator stage in most DACs, including his, "PCM" (Pulse Code Modulation), when everyone else in the world calls it Pulse Density Modulation. These terms have defined mathematical meanings; the result of 1100111001000110 in PCM and the result of 1100111001000110 in PDM are two entirely different quantities. The reason appears to be that John does not want to admit that anything which smacks of DSD (DSD is PDM rather than PCM) is present in his DAC and sounding good.

 

I've heard the earlier version of the Benchmark, with its sigma-delta modulator, and the Yggy without one, and liked them; I'm sure Miska's DSC1 DAC (yes, he's designed one but has no desire to commercialize it; the schematics are published on the Internet and free for DIY use), which won't even accept PCM input, sounds good too. (It has excellent measured performance. Might have better measurements than the Benchmark and/or Yggy, I haven't looked.) There's more than one way to skin an audio "cat."

[firedog]

Opinions have no place in a world where the progress of a scientific endeavor, such as High Fidelity reproduction, are dependent on measurement and proven blind testing. Opinions are strictly guesses.

 

Nope.

 

Only opinions matter when judging the "quality" of how something sounds. Measurements measure quantities, not quality. Measurements are useful and are an indication of quality, but they don't prove anything about quality. If you think they do, you have a serious hole in your understanding of both measurements and of science.

 

If I happen to like the sound of a DSD version of a recording better than a PCM one, John Siau is irrelevant, and my "opinion" is every bit as valuable as his. My opinions about engineering aren't worth as much as his, because I don't have that knowledge; but we don't listen to engineering, we listen to audio. Blind testing can't "prove" that PCM is superior sounding to DSD, because that question isn't a scientific one. Again, if you think it is, you are the one who doesn't understand the limits of testing and science.

 

High Fidelity is not a scientific endeavor, it's an engineering one. Not the same thing. A supposedly inferior technology can produce superior results - in hi fi, and in lots of other technical realms. Design and implementation make a difference.

[Superdad]

Great post Firedog; Jud too.

Aloha to all my CA friends.

From a beach in Kauai, Hawaii,

Alex C.

[ajay556]

well i noticed a $100 TOSlink sounds better than $500 coax. It is definitely blacker, warmer and sweeter. Rob from chord electronics also prefers Toslink for hugo. I have not tried the AES but i feel i will have to spend significant amount to beat a $100 TOSlink. Just wandering anyone have the same experience? Rob also mentioned toslink has a bad reputation as it carries less noise so the sweet sound is construed as less detail.

Oh yeah and this DAC is fabulous.

[Paul R]

well i noticed a $100 TOSlink sounds better than $500 coax. It is definitely blacker, warmer and sweeter. Rob from chord electronics also prefers Toslink for hugo. I have not tried the AES but i feel i will have to spend significant amount to beat a $100 TOSlink. Just wandering anyone have the same experience? Rob also mentioned toslink has a bad reputation as it carries less noise so the sweet sound is construed as less detail.

Oh yeah and this DAC is fabulous.

 

Ain't this an interesting situation?

 

I disgree with Barrows that you have to use an ST interface to get real quality, TosLink can be just fine. Optical connections over short distances are often not as picky as other, purely electrical, connections. (From experience.)

 

Where Inthink TosLink falls down is the S/PDIF format of data on the line, with embedded timing. Ethernet packest just make so much more sense to me, as they eliminate timing issues for the music *in the transmission from source to DAC device*. Within the DAC you can still face all sorts of jitter and EMI type issues.

 

I found that the Sonic difference between a $1.50 plastic TOSlink cable, and a $50-$100 glass cable was staggering. The difference between a $100 and a $300 TOSlink cable was inaudible. YMMV.

 

P.S. Short distance for optical cable is anything under 30 meters to me, though I ghikmTOSlink is specced to a much shorter max distance.

[Sal1950]

Per Blue Jean Cable, custom terminated at $1.75 a foot.

Personally I find it hard to believe a glass cable will sound any different than a plastic one when delivering a digital stream within it's spec'd length.

[h=3]Optical Digital Audio Cable: Mitsubishi Eska POF[/h]When we have a choice, we prefer to run digital audio in coax; it's more robust over distance, and the cable is interchangeable with cable used for certain other applications (e.g., composite video). However, an increasing number of devices are coming onto the market with digital audio available only in optical form, following the TOSlink standard. For these applications, we build our optical cables using the finest high-performance Plastic Optical Fiber (POF), Mitsubishi's ESKA Fiber. While POF is in general rather lossy stuff compared to glass optical fiber, we prefer it for optical digital audio use because it's much more physically durable and because its aperture matches the spec for optical digital audio use, unlike glass fiber which is too small and must be used in bundles. Our fiber is encased first in a tough cladding layer and then, for added durability, a flexible outer PVC jacket similar in texture to the PVC on some of our high-flex Belden cables (e.g. Belden 1505F). In our own usage, we've tested these cables at lengths up to 50 feet and found them to perform perfectly even at those extended distances.

We hand-cut and terminate each of these cables ourselves so we know they're done right and tested before they go out. We think you'll be impressed with their performance; but we also offer a simple and easy return policy. If for any reason you're not completely satisfied, just return the cables, undamaged, within 30 days and we'll refund your purchase price in full.

[jabbr]

"stating that DSD is inferior to PCM"

 

If you believe that recording and mastering quality matters, how can DSD always be inferior to PCM, or vice versa? In the very, very rare case where exactly the same recording and mastering is used for both, by all means buy the one you prefer. But far more often one recording/mastering is audibly better than the other, and in that case it's nice to be able to buy and listen to the better one, no matter whether the product is put out as DSD or PCM.

 

Whether that's best accomplished by a single DAC that can play both, or by one DAC for PCM and another for DSD, is up to you and your budget.

 

+1

 

All the rest is utter nonsense. (Differences between DSD/PCM are entirely swamped by the differences between masterings)

[jabbr]

If Barry Diament produces in PCM, I buy that or if Cookie Marenco in DSD that, as examples, also the Analogue Productions remasterings. The "art" is in the mastering and ultimately that's what it's all about -- Merry Christmas!

[labjr]

Steve Hoffman & Co. do a lot of reissues on SACD and many happen to be the best available versions of the albums.

[jabbr]

Agreed. Here might be a test:

 

http://mackavenue.downloadsnow.net/one-love

 

I've got this in PCM and listen converted to DSD using HQPlayer ... but Blue Coast offers as DSD: http://bluecoastmusic.com/newsletter

 

So this would test Blue Coast's DSD conversion against HQPlayer's ... alternatively could use HQPlayer to convert the DSD version for use with the yggy and compare to the native PCM

 

This recording is phenomenal so testing it out would be very enjoyable!

[Gbar]

I have the Ayre QB-9 DSD and am interested in the comparison with the Yggy as that's the other Dac I've contemplated. Please share.

Does the lack of 'glare' mean it has less treble or treble detail??

I have lived with the Ayre QB9 DSD for 2 years, and I'd say the Yggy is half way between the Ayre and the Vega, soundstage wise. Vega has a DEEP but more narrow soundstage, Ayre has a wide soundstage with a little less depth, and Yggy is in between. I don't detect glare on the Ayre, but I hear a more detailed, upfront presentation than the Vega and the Yggy in my system. I think each has their strength, and personal preference will be deciding factor on which one is chosen but the listener. I could keep any one of them and live happy until the next upgrade bug hits.

[Punkylex]

well i noticed a $100 TOSlink sounds better than $500 coax. It is definitely blacker, warmer and sweeter. Rob from chord electronics also prefers Toslink for hugo. … Just wandering anyone have the same experience? Rob also mentioned toslink has a bad reputation as it carries less noise so the sweet sound is construed as less detail.

 

I did have the same experience and I couldn't agree more with you. So far, I only tried a 20€ toslink cable on my Auralic Vega and Benchmark DAC2 (I'm about to receive a Sysconcept highdef toslink). On both of them, this simple toslink sounded much sweeter, detailed, natural and holographic than USB (haven't tried by coax or AES). So I stopped using the Macmini as transport. Instead I'm using a simple bluray player: less is more.

[PeterG]

Chris and other Yggy Lovers,

 

Thanks so much for the review and other comments. Based almost exclusively on your posts, I upgraded my Meridian Director to a Yggy a couple of weeks ago. I'm blown away by just how good it sounds and how well it captures the musicality, timbre and warmth of so much of my favorite music. Bettye Lavette's in my living room and Steely Dan hasn't sounded this good since 1977.

[mavericksane]

Chris and other Yggy Lovers,

 

Thanks so much for the review and other comments. Based almost exclusively on your posts, I upgraded my Meridian Director to a Yggy a couple of weeks ago. I'm blown away by just how good it sounds and how well it captures the musicality, timbre and warmth of so much of my favorite music. Bettye Lavette's in my living room and Steely Dan hasn't sounded this good since 1977.

 

Peter, I have a Director in my main system and have been mooting an upgrade to either Yggy or a Vega. Might I ask what other DACs you tried and what your input source for the Yggy is?

[Sal1950]

well i noticed a $100 TOSlink sounds better than $500 coax. It is definitely blacker, warmer and sweeter.

 

Sounds like something I heard tonight in the "People Vs O J Simpson" TV show. LOL

[jacquesr]

I have lived with the Ayre QB9 DSD for 2 years, and I'd say the Yggy is half way between the Ayre and the Vega, soundstage wise. Vega has a DEEP but more narrow soundstage, Ayre has a wide soundstage with a little less depth, and Yggy is in between. I don't detect glare on the Ayre, but I hear a more detailed, upfront presentation than the Vega and the Yggy in my system. I think each has their strength, and personal preference will be deciding factor on which one is chosen but the listener. I could keep any one of them and live happy until the next upgrade bug hits.

 

 

Hello Gbar,

I recently sold my Ayre after reading Chris' review. While I am sorting things out I am using a Mojo.

Reading your feedback I am a tiny bit on the fence - is the Schiit not an order of magnitude "better" than the Ayre?

What I mean is that like with every component, there is time when performance of different equipment is of the highest standards, and it become a question of preference/synergy. My understanding (and hope certainly) was that Yggy was plain "better", not "different".

Maybe I am reading too much in your feedback? Could you elaborate - are you happy you switched? Thanks

[mourip]

I think each has their strength, and personal preference will be deciding factor on which one is chosen but the listener. I could keep any one of them and live happy until the next upgrade bug hits.

 

+1

 

I love the Iggy in my headphone system. Just flat out great with my old SinglePower Extreme tube amp and Sennheiser 650's.

 

I liked it so much that I ordered another and sold off my Vega before the new Iggy even arrived. With plenty of hours on the Iggy in my speaker system I am still "on the fence" with it relative to my Vega. I think that I need to tweak a bit more to figure out if I like it in that system more than the Vega. The Vega is a very capable DAC. The Iggy excels at tone and nuance. The Vega is a bit more lively and less forward.

 

This stuff is a lot more than cooking than science once you get to a certain level. I honestly think it comes down to system matching and preference.

 

My next plan is to try the Mutec USB with the AES output. Hope springs eternal!

[labjr]

Hello Gbar,

I recently sold my Ayre after reading Chris' review. While I am sorting things out I am using a Mojo.

Reading your feedback I am a tiny bit on the fence - is the Schiit not an order of magnitude "better" than the Ayre?

What I mean is that like with every component, there is time when performance of different equipment is of the highest standards, and it become a question of preference/synergy. My understanding (and hope certainly) was that Yggy was plain "better", not "different".

Maybe I am reading too much in your feedback? Could you elaborate - are you happy you switched? Thanks

 

How is the Mojo compared to the Ayre?

[mourip]

 

This stuff is a lot more than cooking than science once you get to a certain level. I honestly think it comes down to system matching and preference.

 

Oops. Make that "a lot more LIKE cooking than science"

[Gbar]

IMHO, the Yggy was not just plain better. In fact, I returned my Yggy within the 15 day return for refund - a minor handling costs. I must say the customer service with Schiit audio is excellent, among the best I've experienced.

If I had the extra money, I would keep a Yggy around for the great sound it offers. Instead, I returned it and am now left with a Berkeley Alpha 2, which I think bests the Yggy overall, IMHO. There is so much equipment interplay involved that one really needs to listen to multiple DACs in their system to find THEIR favorite. Overall, no I didn't think the Yggy was superior to the Ayre. I may be in the minority, but I love the Ayre and the presentation it offers. The Ayre of course offered DSD- the Yggy and Berkeley don't. But the Berkeley can drive an amp directly, which Ayre and Yggy can't One needs to use the Dac that fits into their system.

BTW, I did feel the Yggy sounded much better running it into the Berkeley Alpha USB interface, a point Chris made in a discussion on this post. As always, YMMV, and everyone needs to listen for themselves, as I don't profess to have golden ears. I do go to live music when possible, so I do know what live music sounds like. Hope this helps, but probably muddies the water more

Hello Gbar,

I recently sold my Ayre after reading Chris' review. While I am sorting things out I am using a Mojo.

Reading your feedback I am a tiny bit on the fence - is the Schiit not an order of magnitude "better" than the Ayre?

What I mean is that like with every component, there is time when performance of different equipment is of the highest standards, and it become a question of preference/synergy. My understanding (and hope certainly) was that Yggy was plain "better", not "different".

Maybe I am reading too much in your feedback? Could you elaborate - are you happy you switched? Thanks

[reverendo]

"Orkney shepherds in ecstatic union with their flock"

Reading the review and thread only today. This made me laugh hard and loud!!! Is baldr one of the minds behind Shiit?

[Jud]

Reading the review and thread only today. This made me laugh hard and loud!!! Is baldr one of the minds behind Shiit?

 

Yep, it's Mike Moffat, the designer of Schiit's DACs.

[reverendo]

Yep, it's Mike Moffat, the designer of Schiit's DACs.

Thanks Jud. A few posts later that became clear. Has anyone played with a REGEN on the Yggy's usb input and compared to the AES/EBU? This little DAC has me wondering a little, since some of it's attributed qualities are exactly what I'll be trying to improve in my system: texture, color and tone. OTOH I really don't want to lose transients, detail and soundstage that I currently have (which are pretty awesome). Did you get a chance to play with it, Jud? Comparisons and opinions from others are appreciated. BTW, I just read through this whole thread, so I know what's been said until now.

[Gbar]

Oops. Make that "a lot more LIKE cooking than science"

I agree wholeheartedly. The Ayre in my Spectral system was great. I switched to Constellation, and the Ayre gave a more front row presentation, rather than the mid hall I was used to. One not better than the other, just different. Tried the Yggy, and it did indeed move the presentation back to more of what I was used to, and even quieter with the Berkeley USB interface. I felt I was losing some of the detail and transparency I was getting with the Ayre, but because I had already sold it, I could NOT do a back to back comparison. Given our auditory short term memory, it would be difficult to make a cross the board declaration, which is why I said one should definitely try any of these dacs in their system to see how it meshes with what they have. If I had the cash, I'd have a Yggy, Ayre, Berkeley, and several other dacs I've heard, each with attributes and strong points others don't have. Regarding an order of magnitiude difference between any of these dacs referred to in another thread, I personally don't believe anyone can declare that to be the case, as none are head and shoulders above the others, IMHO of course.

[ednaz]

I'm not sure if I miss-read the thoughts behind the comment, but Mike Moffat designed the famous ADC used by MSFL (though now they don't use it any more). If you have ever listened to Muddy Waters' Folk Singer or Robin Trower's Bridge of Sighs, those are two albums off the top of my head that were digitised with it. So "again" is needed in your comment I reckon. Otherwise I totally agree! You're not the first person to suggest it.

 

I have to say that Muddy Waters' album is spookily realistic sounding, which is amazing given the era of the original recording, and I'd always wondered what might be in the production chain that led there. Seriously spooky. First time I played it (my system has the Exasound e22 DAC, which is also pretty amazing with acoustic music and live albums) my dogs went insane looking for Muddy. A couple times I've played it when we had guests and every time they get quiet and wander off into the family room and stand slack jawed listening. Some other albums produce the same responses, but that one's completely otherworldly.

 

Not a huge Trower fan but I'm going to hunt it down and check it out. I'm looking for a DAC for my studio and am a little annoyed at the Exasound's dependence on their own driver, so the Yggy was on my list.