ECdesigns

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

13 minutes ago, jwr159 said:

 With either a Toslink or Coax source, what options or solutions are available to use the U192ETL/Fractal DAC? Is there a way to do a conversion to USB? Or any chance EC Designs comes out with an Coax/SPDIF/Toslink version of the  U192ETL? 

 

Thanks 

 

They had initially discussed (on Diyaudio) a unit with spdif input but I guess they abandoned the idea. You could ask the question on the Diyaudio thread. 

 

Short of an ECD product to do this, converting from toslink or coax to USB can be done with a computer and sound card. That would allow using a single computer, with multiple sources (CD, TV...) connected to the U192 & Fractal DAC. 

[Norton]

8 hours ago, hopkins said:

Not only that, when applied to the UPL96ETL reference, even that reference improved significantl

 

8 hours ago, hopkins said:

He mentions his newest project (PowerDAC) which is based on the U192 + FractalDAC, and some pretty novel amplification solutions

Properly bewildered now!  So both the U192 and the UPL have had  significant hardware updates  since I bought mine on first release only a month ago and on top of this they are already working on new/replacement product?  Mind you I have thought since previous generation that they should concentrate on an integrated player/DAC; one box DAC with onboard usb stick transport and an additional usb input would be nice.

[matthias]

16 minutes ago, Norton said:

Properly bewildered now!  So both the U192 and the UPL have had  significant hardware updates  since I bought mine on first release only a month ago and on top of this they are already working on new/replacement product?  

 

These guys seem to be very innovative.

So I fear at the very moment you buy something from ECD it is already outdated.

Maybe they should offer their devices for leasing not buying.

You have a fixed rate per month and get always the latest model.

 

I am curious about the Fractal PowerDAC 🙂

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I understand the frustration. I have a pile of obsolete ECD products at home... Norton, you should contact them about the upgrade. To add to that, if the U192 does perform as well as the UPL, I'll probably simply stop using the UPL... I build that into the cost of having their products, and at the end of the day, I'm ok with that. It is better not to rush into things with them, but sometimes hard to resist, and I hope my enthusiasm here has not led others to regret their choices. 

 

If it can be of any comfort, I understand that the PowerDAC basically integrates the U192 and Fractal DAC as is, and builds upon it, so that seem to indicate that the source/DAC aspect is done with? 

[M_audio]

PowerDac will be a new product along the FractalDAC, not a replacement. Usually PowerDACs are DACs with integrated amplifier, so maybe it's that what are they aiming to.

[Michael L]

7 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

These guys seem to be very innovative.

So I fear at the very moment you buy something from ECD it is already outdated.

I am curious about the Fractal PowerDAC 🙂

 

Matt

 

I bought my UPL16 and MOS16 plus UTOS stick believing this set-up would last me years. I am disappointed that good as the equipment is, I know that things have moved on. I feel that a year's ownership is far too little to be thinking of replacement. I mostly buy second hand but I thought I should buy new this time. I'm disappointed TBH.

[matthias]

2 minutes ago, M_audio said:

PowerDac will be a new product along the FractalDAC, not a replacement. Usually PowerDACs are DACs with integrated amplifier, so maybe it's that what are they aiming to.

 

My understanding is that the Fractal PowerDAC is a digital amp with a DAC section just before the output.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

With the UPL/MOS DAC (previous generation) there was no way of knowing at the time that there would be further developments. The resale value of those previous models is now probably very low. So its a "sunk cost". 

 

The situation now is a little different as they are developing this new project while still in the initial "release" phase of new products. But can you blame them for discovering new solutions that ultimately provide significant increases in audio quality? 

 

 If they do offer an integrated PowerDAC, I do not believe this will  diminish the value of the current U192/Fractal. Some may not want a completely integrated "box", for various reasons, and be content with a low cost source/DAC that performs very well with existing amplifiers. 

 

I've seen a picture of the prototype of the PowerDAC, and its a "beast" - on that aspect alone some may probably be hesitant to purchase one. Sonically, no idea, but they do refer to it (in that DIYAudio thread) as a "revolution in audio". At this point, I completely trust their ears. But I am going to enjoy what I have now for some time. If and when this PowerDAC does come out, I will definitely seek to have a look at it "in person" and audition it first before taking any decision.

 

One more point: returning a small unit by mail for an upgrade is one thing,  but doing that with a large power amplifier is different. So that's another reason for not rushing into it and making sure that it has been thoroughly tested. I am sure they will get local customers in Holland to do that first. It will be important to do so. 

[Norton]

52 minutes ago, matthias said:

Maybe they should offer their devices for leasing not buying.

You have a fixed rate per month and get always the latest model.

Yes a subscription model might be more appropriate....

[matthias]

34 minutes ago, hopkins said:

With the UPL/MOS DAC (previous generation) there was no way of knowing at the time that there would be further developments. The resale value of those previous models is now probably very low. So its a "sunk cost". 

 

This is always the case and happened to Schitt too as they had the USB5 interface. Later on they discovered that the Unison USB is much better.

But the pace how ECD are launching new products is extraordinary and this is not customer friendly at all. Maybe a solution would be that they have devices with modules, so these could be more easily swapped.

 

Matt

[Norton]

48 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Norton, you should contact them about the upgrade

I did - seems it’s a possibility but nothing definite yet  (and that was just for the U192, no mention of the UPL, which according to the above has also had a significant update)

 

I get it that products move on, but in the case of this occurring literally  just a month or so after initial sales, it would be nice if there was clarity and priority in terms of updates for existing customers.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

9 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

This is always the case and happened to Schitt too as they had the USB5 interface. Later on the discovered that the Unison USB is much better.

But they pace with ECD are launching new products is extraordinary and this is not customer friendly at all. Maybe a solution would be that they have devices with modules, so these could be more easily swapped.

 

Matt

 

Putting aside the PowerDAC, which I addressed, it is not uncommon for suppliers to offer upgrades. Look at Taiko, which you follow... 

 

You can argue about the WAY in which ECD is handling it right now, but its really a single-person operation. They don't have a customer service department, and yes, they do take time to reply to email, as has been noted before, but you can also contact them by phone, and they seem to be pretty easy about returning the units to get them upgraded.

 

That being said, I do agree with Norton that it has been a little chaotic. Lets hope things get quickly sorted out for everyone. 

 

[matthias]

2 minutes ago, Norton said:

I get it that products move on, but in the case of this occurring literally  just a month or so after initial sales, it would be nice if there was clarity and priority in terms of updates for existing customers.

 

Maybe with buying a device the customer gets the guarantee for free upgrades within a year or two.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

They need to hire a customer service manager. I  should send them my resumé 😂 

. 

[matthias]

3 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Putting aside the PowerDAC, which I addressed, it is not uncommon for suppliers to offer upgrades. Look at Taiko, which you follow... 

 

Taiko has a customer service bar none.

AFAIK, there has been no hardware upgrades at all since launching of the Extreme.

They made several Roon optimisations, all of them were updated via TeamViewer remotely and without charge from Hengelo in Holland.

So what is your point?

 

Matt

[Huubster]

I'm with you on this one Hopkins!

 

One should realise that John is a rare breed, totally pasionate about his hobby and he brings it to the public with the scarce resouces he has. That should be appreciated in my opinion.

 

He's not a regular audio equipment business, who would be sitting on a new invention on purpose and waiting another year or two to sell an upgraded version for the same money again.. I'm pretty sure he will upgrade the recently bought units.

[tapatrick]

6 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

I'm assuming you are enjoying the Fractal/U192 combo?  🙂

🙂 Certainly am and very happy with the U192/Fractal DAC combination, which has elevated my streaming SQ significantly. It's the ease and naturalness that impresses me most. I've decided that I prefer this over my PS Audio Junior DAC even though it is a lovely DAC with a rich set of features.

 

In the past I have had my best improvements by focussing on clean power and low noise regulators, especially with USB, so today I added a 5v USB injection to the USB cable just as it enters the U192 (from a Paul Hynes SR4). This enhanced the SQ with a slightly more liquid sound, and more lifelike quality to voices, slightly deeper bass and additional softer details. I tried powering the Fractal DAC with clean 5V but it seems to need 5.5v/0.5-1amp input possibly feeding a 5v regulator inside. The power supply included seems to do the job well.

 

I also tried adding an IsoRegen to the chain but wouldn't recognise it. So it seems playing with source and input does make slight differences. I still have to try a macbook laptop feeding the U192 but to be honest I'm losing interest in experimenting, maybe at the weekend when have more time.

 

 

[Norton]

14 hours ago, Huubster said:

John is a rare breed, totally pasionate about his hobby and he brings it to the public with the scarce resouces he has

I can’t disagree with that (although I don’t know anything about the resources part).

Certainly, he seems  to be one of the few (only one?) who are bringing real innovation and original thought to 2ch digital audio, which otherwise seems to have stagnated somewhat in my view.  I hope he is patenting his work.
 

I was already  thinking about getting his upcoming speakers, and the new power DAC looks amazing (I understand there will be a smaller HP version too).  Looks like things  are moving on the update for  “first gen” U192, but I’m not clear where things are re. the mentioned update to the UPL (ie if this was an improvement made before, or subsequent to, initial release)

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 hour ago, Norton said:

Certainly, he seems  to be one of the few (only one?) who are bringing real innovation and original thought to 2ch digital audio, which otherwise seems to have stagnated somewhat in my view.  I hope he is patenting his work.

 

 

Completely agree. I was giving more thought to this while listening to music last night - while the U192 and UPL are well executed and contain their lot of innovations, the Fractal DAC is more of a "break-through" product. Looking back at the various feedbacks so far, I am curious to see if ANY existing DAC is going to achieve the same sound quality - I am NOT trying to be provocative here, I just honestly think it has some pretty unique qualities, and the way they describe it on their website ("an end result in the quest for the holy grail in digital audio: realistic music reproduction") is bold but really spot on. When I shared this opinion with some people here in France I ended up having fewer friends! Hope people here who have actually listened to it will be more understanding. What is interesting is that their next project is probably going to further "unleash" its potential. 

 

Based on the way John Brown describes it, the PowerDAC, building on the Fractal DAC, is going to be in that same league, of really innovative and break-through products, that change the way we view "digital" reproduction, and probably audio in general. What will be left ? the choice of speakers will be critical (and the good news is, they come in all shapes and forms), and perhaps some tweaking of the source, but probably providing marginal benefits.

[matthias]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

I am curious to see if ANY existing DAC is going to achieve the same sound quality

 

i am curious as well 🙂

 

Can you please ask ECD if it is possible to listen to their products somewhere at the Dutch Audio Event in September?

 

Thank you

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I have no affiliation with them - I just harass them with emails  I think they contribute to a Dutch audio club. You can certainly write to them and make the suggestion - will do so as well.

[Michael L]

Just now, hopkins said:

I have no affiliation with them - I just harass them with emails  I think they contribute to a Dutch audio club. You can certainly write to them and make the suggestion - will do so as well.

Any idea of the name of this Dutch audio club? 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

1 minute ago, Michael L said:

Any idea of the name of this Dutch audio club? 

 

No sorry, a friend send me links but I no longer have them - a google search should find them.

[matthias]

15 minutes ago, hopkins said:

You can certainly write to them and make the suggestion - will do so as well.

 

I wrote now a post on diyaudio.

 

Matt

[Huubster]

Just had a call with John about their plans regarding the product updates on already sold items. The short answer is: Relax, it's gonna be ok..

 

Their effort to find the 'holy grail' in USB streaming is already going on for a long time and recently more and more kind requests (or strong wishes) of client's came in to make the U192 as good as the UPL, for reasons of convenience of course. This motivated John even more to find the 'holy grail' and he recently did, to his own suprise I think.. He's now in the process of testing and verifying the  modification, to be sure he can deliver the 'better' product conform his own high standards

 

Their current plan is to prepare a new batch of U192 players, of course including the modification, and send existent customers a new version of the U192. This way you are able to compare the new one with your own version. Once you made your decision, you can send either one back (like we don't already know which one! ). Of course they cannot do this for all customers at the same time, so have a little patience, they will contact all existing customers.

 

By the way, John agreed to the fact that I share this here online, so see this as an answer for all of you with questions regarding this topic.

 

@hopkins: I think your U192 is an important test case for them, I understood your U192 is received and already upgraded, and will be the first 'modified' version to be delivered.

 

Oh, and another thing, like mentioned before, the update is also applicable to the UPL, but is less 'necessary'. Their focus is on updating the U192's first. If you want to have your UPL updated as well, no problem, but again, a bit of patience is applicable here.

 

I hope this answers your questions or concerns a bit!