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Got a message from ECD, which started with the following words: "It has finally happened" and to which I simply replied "hallelujah" :)

 

They managed to perfect the U192 a little further to completely block the incoming source noise and Xmos noise above the bandwidth needed for the digital audio signal (20 MHz) and this has, according to them, led to the two (U192 and UPL96) being indistinguishable. He confirmed this also with measurements. So this means the U192 is basically "source insensitive". 

 

I understand à few more parts are on their way before they can build the new batches, and offer the upgrade.

 

I never know what information is OK or not to "advertise" here, but once again, I think this is significant (and is not revealing any of the secrets of their "heroic engineering", which they seem always eager to share anyway, contrary to many others). 

 

Looking forward to confirming this with my own ears. 

 

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21 hours ago, hopkins said:

according to them, led to the two (U192 and UPL96) being indistinguishable

Super, That is great news!

Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. 

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22 hours ago, hopkins said:

I understand à few more parts are on their way before they can build the new batches, and offer the upgrade.

 

Today I received the U192ETL converter and an SVC24 passive preamp.

 

According to John of ECdesigns my U192ETL is "the new version with band-limiter circuit".

 

I really like the preamp.

For the U192ETL (which I am using with a Terminator) I do not want to say anything hasty, so I will take some time for comparisons...

 

audio system

 

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12 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

Today I received the U192ETL converter and an SVC24 passive preamp.

 

According to John of ECdesigns my U192ETL is "the new version with band-limiter circuit".

 

I really like the preamp.

For the U192ETL (which I am using with a Terminator) I do not want to say anything hasty, so I will take some time for comparisons...

 

Cool. Nice to be living in Holland 😊

 

Its a shame you don't have the Fractal DAC as well, I am sure a lot of people would have been interested by that, but more importantly, since you took the plunge with ECD, aren't you going to be curious about it yourself? 

 

What player are you going to be using with the U192? 

 

As for the SVC, it took some time for me to warm to it, but I find it actually performs shockingly well in my system. I had their previous passive preamp model, and was not 100% convinced by it. Its strange how things work sometimes. 

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41 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Cool. Nice to be living in Holland 😊

 

Yes, it also brings some advantages 🙂.

 

Quote

Its a shame you don't have the Fractal DAC as well, I am sure a lot of people would have been interested by that, but more importantly, since you took the plunge with ECD, aren't you going to be curious about it yourself?

 

That would be nice indeed! But see my previous post: if the PC + U192 + Terminator will lag behind SDTrans384 + Terminator in terms of SQ, I will be reluctant to take the plunge. An analytical mind would conclude from that that PC + U192 cannot compete with the SDTrans. Of course, a holistic mind would allow for the possibility of synergy... So borrowing a Fractal from someone would be nice, to hear for myself...

 

With my previous previous DAC, a Lampizator, I used to upsample everything to DSD256 as its PCM circuit was below par. With the Terminator, which has a glorious PCM circuit, I only upsample DSD64 to DSD256. But I am far from dogmatic in this regard. I find it strange when people say "This PCM-only DAC is not for me as I listen to DSD." Why do they listen to DSD? I guess because they like how it sounds. But what if a PCM DAC sounds as nice or even better? That is not impossible, is it?

What I mean is: I do not think one format is always better than the other; it is about the device-format combo.

 

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What player are you going to be using with the U192?

 

Many choices: wtfplay and/or Aplayer console (Linux), XXHighend or UPplay (Windows). I could even try JRiver which I use as database only.

 

By the way, I was pleasantly surprised I could play DSD64 with wtfplay through the U192. DoP I guess.

 

Quote

As for the SVC, it took some time for me to warm to it, but I find it actually performs shockingly well in my system. I had their previous passive preamp model, and was not 100% convinced by it. Its strange how things work sometimes. 

 

The SVC24 sounds very much like my DIY Stereo Coffee LDR passive preamp, another minimal design. I find the SVC a tad more relaxed, so it is a keeper. Also because I do not have to think about LPSU's anymore 🙂

 

audio system

 

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23 hours ago, hopkins said:

Got a message from ECD, which started with the following words: "It has finally happened" and to which I simply replied "hallelujah" :)

 

They managed to perfect the U192 a little further to completely block the incoming source noise and Xmos noise above the bandwidth needed for the digital audio signal (20 MHz) and this has, according to them, led to the two (U192 and UPL96) being indistinguishable. He confirmed this also with measurements. So this means the U192 is basically "source insensitive". 

 

I understand à few more parts are on their way before they can build the new batches, and offer the upgrade.

 

I never know what information is OK or not to "advertise" here, but once again, I think this is significant (and is not revealing any of the secrets of their "heroic engineering", which they seem always eager to share anyway, contrary to many others). 

 

Looking forward to confirming this with my own ears. 

 

 

This is great, BUT is this really the version of U192 which @bodiebill received or an even newer one?

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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5 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

This is great, BUT is it really the version of U192 which @bodiebill received or an even newer one?

 

Matt

 

It is the version that he received. I guess the parts they ordered were for further batches - I must have misunderstood, sorry for the confusion. Clearly any U192 they are shipping now has the mod they were talking about, they confirmed to Bodiebill, and there is no further development ongoing on the U192 AFAIK.

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@bodiebill thanks for your answers. Seems you can test the U192 with various sources, and confirm (or not) its "source independance" - I assume that aspect should not vary based on the  DAC being used? As long as the various sources are bit perfect, the claim is that the results should be pretty much identical. 

 

I would be curious to see whether things like regenerators still serve a purpose. 

 

As for the Terminator, I should be able to take the Fractal DAC to a friend's for a comparison sometime late August. 

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8 minutes ago, hopkins said:

@bodiebill thanks for your answers. Seems you can test the U192 with various sources, and confirm (or not) its "source independance" - I assume that aspect should not vary based on the  DAC being used? As long as the various sources are bit perfect, the claim is that the results should be pretty much identical. 

 

Indeed, curious about alleged source independence also... Will report back on my (subjective) findings in due time...

 

audio system

 

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3 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

With all due respect this is a very bold claim.

I am absolutely sure that the ECD devices with a Taiko Extreme as source do sound better than with a laptop.

 

Matt

 

We'll probably never know. ECD is too "low end" for Taiko Extreme owners to bother testing 😃

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1 minute ago, hopkins said:

 

We'll probably never know. ECD is too "low end" for Taiko Extreme owners 😃

 

But if they claim source independence they have to verify this under "extreme" circumstances. The Netherlands are not so large, so a drive to Hengelo is appropriate.  🙂 Otherwise they should be reluctant to claim this. 

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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14 minutes ago, hopkins said:

We'll probably never know. ECD is too "low end" for Taiko Extreme owners to bother testing 

 

Low price you mean? 😊

 

Some may argue that Taiko Extreme owners go to great lengths at even greater expense to tame things that could also be avoided to start with, such as network, usb or high amperage.

 

Anyway I will at least compare different players, using my optimized PC, and report back...

 

audio system

 

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20 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

But if they claim source independence they have to verify this under "extreme" circumstances. The Netherlands are not so large, so a drive to Hengelo is appropriate.  🙂 Otherwise they should be reluctant to claim this. 

 

Matt

 

That's our job, I think, to compare and experiment in various settings and equipment. What I understand they did is:

- investigate the causes for source dependancy, formulate hypotheses, experiment and test them

- to test them I think they checked that noise was actually blocked above that 20Mhz audio signal bandwidth using sweep generators. And they obviously did listening tests against the UPL. 

 

If a simple PC provides the same SQ as the UPL, I'll be thoroughly satified. Don't plan on purchasing a Taiko Extreme to test things any further than that.  Perhaps a Taiko Extreme would provide better SQ than a UPL? Always a possibility... 

 

Lets wait and see what their customers (us) report back. It is great being able to exchange here on this thread 👍

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8 minutes ago, hopkins said:

That's our job, I think, to compare and experiment in various settings and equipment. What I understand they did is:

- investigate the causes for source dependancy, formulate hypotheses, experiment and test them

- to test them I think they checked that noise was actually blocked above that 20Mhz audio signal bandwidth using sweep generators. And they obviously did listening tests against the UPL. 

If a simple PC provides the same SQ as the UPL, I'll be thoroughly satified. Don't plan on purchasing a Taiko Extreme to test things any further than that. 

Lets wait and see what their customers (us) report back. It is great being able to exchange here on this thread 👍

 

I appreciate what they are doing, but SQ is much more than absence of noise. My experience so far is that an interface which is able the improve the quality of music playback is also able to show differences between sources.

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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27 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

I appreciate what they are doing, but SQ is much more than absence of noise. My experience so far is that an interface which is able the improve the quality of music playback is also able to show differences between sources.

 

Matt

 

Well then, the U192 may not be for you.

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10 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Well then, the U192 may not be for you.

 

I welcome all efforts especially with USB interfaces. But source matters, music is the source par excellence.

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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Do you have a Taiko Extreme ?

 

Not sure I get your point with these various statements, such as "SQ is much more than absence of noise", or "music is the source par excellence" - I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue with what I think you are stating concerning music, and this thread may not really the best place to argue about the first. I think we just need to wait for further feedbacks, since we are going into uncharted territory here.

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8 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Do you have a Taiko Extreme ?

 

No or not yet, but I like the Source First principle: 

To maximise the quality of music reproduction, the order of importance is (from most to least): The performance of the artist, the recording, the record/CD/file, the source component that replays the record/CD/file, the DAC, the preamplifier, the power amplifier and the loudspeaker (least important).

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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These are very sweeping statements. Loudspeaker least important?

EC are designing equipment that cleans up the digital signal removing as much of the jitter, noise etc as possible.

If they are doing as good a job as I expect it won't matter what state the signal is in - within limits obviously.

As for the actual music - well the best music in the world will sound cruddy through a 60s transistor radio.

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I tend to think that any single component can compromise the overall results, but am not sure you can really prioritize them. Anyway, the priorities we set are probably ultimately not so important, and there is nothing discussed here in the ECD thread that would suggest one approach is superior to another. 

 

Let's take it one step at a time and see first what we can learn from the feedback of actual users of these products? 

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12 hours ago, hopkins said:

what we can learn from the feedback of actual users of these products? 


For me, it’s most important to hear from a user who can compare the updated U192 with the UPL96 into the DAC96.  In terms of  detail retrieval, naturalness of tone and unfatiguing  listening, the UPL/DAC combo surpasses my Mirus DAC and, from memory, the Esoteric players that I had previously, which is quite an achievement, given the relative costs and radically different builds  and feature sets involved.  Just as with the previous generation from ECD, at the moment I see the real magic happening in the DAC/UPL combination and given the UPL’s relative inconvenience and DAC’s single proprietary input, its use case for me is really as a top drawer alternate for critical listening, where the user already has another Roon-based or similar setup for both source and DAC.
 

For now, I’m a little sceptical that the revised U192 will sound identical to the UPL with the DAC96 (my U192 has sat in its box after a couple of listening sessions) , but if it does  that will be quite some breakthrough -hopefully  I’ll hear soon either from a contributor here or (even better) in my own system.

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Norton said:

... compare the updated U192 with the UPL96 into the DAC96.  In terms of  detail retrieval, naturalness of tone and unfatiguing  listening,

 

This comparison would be one way to assess the U192's source independence.

If the U192 sounds the same (or as good) with a PC as source as the UPL96 with its own usb stick, that would be something.

I would have to hear it with my own ears, before believing that the two devices are 'indistinguishable' as reported earlier.

 

audio system

 

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Skepticism, within reason, is always a good thing 🙂 and it is nice to see that at least we all seem to share the same curiosity about this 👍

 

I should have the new U192 by the end of next week, and will obviously share my findings: UPL versus U192 playing on a simple "no thrills" networked NUC with Flac files and  LMS - a 200€ "off the shelf" source connected to the U192 with ECD's  USB cable.

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