ECdesigns

[bodiebill]

I have done some listening. Interim results below. I emphasize interim as the top contenders are very close and one may not be necessarily better or worse than another, but maybe just different. I need more time (many weeks) to further familiarize myself.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

It looks  like a match between the Terminator and the Terminator

[bodiebill]

4 minutes ago, hopkins said:

It looks  like a match between the Terminator and the Terminator

 

That is not how I experience it. I hear that the ECD combo has qualities that in some way surpass the Terminator, so it is more about the source. The SDTrans384 is a glorious source but alas it does not speak with the ECD combo 😐  

[matthias]

11 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

I have done some listening. Interim results below. I emphasize interim as the top contenders are very close and one may not be necessarily better or worse than another, but maybe just different. I need more time (many weeks) to further familiarize myself.

 

Great work, thanks 🙂

 

Two thoughts:

 

Can you compare SPDIF vs. Toslink with U192ETL and Terminator?

 

What about removing the Iso Regen in configuration F?

 

Thanks

 

Matt

[bodiebill]

21 minutes ago, matthias said:

Can you compare SPDIF vs. Toslink with U192ETL and Terminator?

 

The SDTrans384 and the PC do not have SPDIF (unless I connect my old Audiophileo which I am not inclined to do)

The HX500 does do SPDIF but I already found that it performs slightly better with I2S.

Or do you mean with the U192ETL in the chain, i.e. are you referring to the protocols? In that case wouldn't that be E versus F? 

 

Quote

What about removing the Iso Regen in configuration F?

 

The difference between with and without the ISO Regen is much less than before the ECD combo was added. However, I still prefer with. Source independence in this respect has decreased but not disappeared.

[matthias]

3 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

Or do you mean with the U192ETL in the chain? 

 

I mean IIUC you tried only Toslink between U192ETL and Terminator.

Maybe SPDIF does sound better?

 

Matt

[matthias]

15 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

The difference between with and without the ISO Regen is much less than before the ECD combo was added. However, I still prefer with. Source independence in this respect has decreased but not disappeared.

 

This is an interesting data point.

Just for comparison:

AFAIK, with the Taiko Extreme all USB reclockers etc and endpoints downstream did sound inferior than without these devices.

 

Matt

[bodiebill]

6 minutes ago, matthias said:

This is an interesting data point.

Just for comparison:

AFAIK, with the Taiko Extreme all USB reclockers etc and endpoints downstream did sound inferior than without these devices.

 

'Data point' may be saying too much as it is probably a matter of taste. The sound is slightly clearer without and slightly warmer/rounder with the ISO Regen. I am a sucker for warmth.

[matthias]

1 minute ago, bodiebill said:

I am a sucker for warmth.

 

Me too.

The difference between fiber and copper ethernet seems to be similar.

 

Matt

[bodiebill]

31 minutes ago, matthias said:

I mean IIUC you tried only Toslink between U192ETL and Terminator.

Maybe SPDIF does sound better?

 

Maybe I misunderstood. The ECdesigns website says about the U192ETL:

"The USB translator supports both, standard S/PDIF and low jitter ElectroTos protocols. It can be used with existing DACs (S/PDIF protocol) or our new Fractal DAC (ElectroTos low jitter protocol)."

I thought it required the ElectroTos cable with the distinction that it works with the SPDIF protocol in case of a non-ECD DAC and with the ElectroTos 'low jitter' protocol in case of an ECD DAC,

I did not even know it was allowed to connect a normal (symmetrical) SPDIF cable, but if that would work, there would be no optical isolation involved.

Of course I could try...

[McNulty]

18 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

If it can be of some reassurance, I used the U192 with my Samsung tablet (Galaxy Tab S2), connecting it directly with a USB OTG cable, but that will not guarantee it will work with an iPad. You should probably send ECD an email to confirm it will work with an iPad Pro.

Thanks for your quick reply. I’ve e-mailed them.

[Norton]

7 hours ago, bodiebill said:

I did not even know it was allowed to connect a normal (symmetrical) SPDIF cable,

I asked ECD this and answer  was no,  I think because voltage is higher.  

[matthias]

45 minutes ago, Norton said:

I asked ECD this and answer  was no,  I think because voltage is higher.  

 

Then maybe the description on the HP is somewhat misleading.

 

Matt

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

Then maybe the description on the HP is somewhat misleading.

 

Agreed, it seems to be about protocols, not about actual physical connections.

[matthias]

25 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

Agreed, it seems to be about protocols, not about actual physical connections.

 

"The USB translator supports both, standard S/PDIF and low jitter ElectroTos protocols. It can be used with existing DACs (S/PDIF protocol) or our new Fractal DAC (ElectroTos low jitter protocol)."

 

So they should mention that with existing DACs only standard Toslink and not copper SPDIF can be used.

 

Matt

[matthias]

21 hours ago, hopkins said:

To get back to the current "set", I would be curious to know if anyone has compared various "streaming" software using the same hardware: Roon, UPNP, LMS... My assumption is that differences in software would also be negligible (once again, provided settings ensure "bit-perfectness").

 

IIUC, comparing configuration E vs G of @bodiebill gives some info about this topic but there is network involved and some hardware differences in G too.

But all differences are source related.

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

12 hours ago, bodiebill said:

 

That is not how I experience it. I hear that the ECD combo has qualities that in some way surpass the Terminator, so it is more about the source. The SDTrans384 is a glorious source but alas it does not speak with the ECD combo 😐  

 

The only entry in your chart with both the U192 and the Fractal DAC is a configuration where you use wtfplay. I assume basic streaming is "subpar" and did not make it on your chart. 

 

I am really surprised by all this, and it does not reflect my own listening. I don't own the same equipment, obviously.

[tapatrick]

13 hours ago, Michael L said:

2nd order distortion can give that 'singer in the room' feeling. Strange but true.  

 

On 7/27/2020 at 8:02 AM, tapatrick said:

.....and is virtually free of any distortion or degrading.....

Same word - different meaning and different context.

 

Lets see what EC come up with - given their track record I'm looking forward to seeing what they develop next.

[bodiebill]

39 minutes ago, hopkins said:

The only entry in your chart with both the U192 and the Fractal DAC is a configuration where you use wtfplay. I assume basic streaming is "subpar" and did not make it on your chart.

 

Correct. Based on the disappointing result with streaming to the GentooPlayer PC with U192ETL and the Terminator (E) compared to wtfplay with the same (G), I did define an option H (see pic) but have not tried it yet. I will try it when I have the time.

 

Of course I am not discarding streaming based on just this one setup with GentooPlayer, but I admit I am less motivated to further explore streaming based on my initial impressions.

 

I find it interesting that the HX500 does a much better job with streaming (C). I do not have an immediate explanation for this other than that the HX500 has a much lower footprint than any (oversized) PC.

[matthias]

13 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

Correct. Based on the disappointing result with streaming to the GentooPlayer PC with U192ETL and the Terminator (E) compared to wtfplay with the same (G), I did define an option H (see pic) but have not tried it yet. I will try it when I have the time.

 

Of course I am not discarding streaming based on just this one setup with GentooPlayer, but I admit I am less motivated to further explore streaming based on my initial impressions.

 

I find it interesting that the HX500 does a much better job with streaming (C). I do not have an immediate explanation for this other than that the HX500 has a much lower footprint than any (oversized) PC.

 

I think it is interesting how precise the U192ETL shows differences upstream to it.

Surprising that the Fractal DAC seems to be able to outperform the Terminator.

 

Matt

[tapatrick]

52 minutes ago, hopkins said:

 

The only entry in your chart with both the U192 and the Fractal DAC is a configuration where you use wtfplay. I assume basic streaming is "subpar" and did not make it on your chart. 

 

I am really surprised by all this, and it does not reflect my own listening. I don't own the same equipment, obviously.

That's interesting. There are so many things at play with different systems, that's why the more reports the better to get some kind of consensus if any. But like you my streaming with U192 & Fractal DAC has surpassed all previous setups and experiments.

[tapatrick]

17 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

Correct. Based on the disappointing result with streaming to the GentooPlayer PC with U192ETL and the Terminator (E) compared to wtfplay with the same (G), I did define an option H (see pic) but have not tried it yet. I will try it when I have the time.

 

Of course I am not discarding streaming based on just this one setup with GentooPlayer, but I admit I am less motivated to further explore streaming based on my initial impressions.

 

I find it interesting that the HX500 does a much better job with streaming (C). I do not have an immediate explanation for this other than that the HX500 has a much lower footprint than any (oversized) PC.

Not sure from your posting, but did you try streaming with the U192 + DA96ETF? I'm curious what you found.

[tapatrick]

34 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Not sure from your posting, but did you try streaming with the U192 + DA96ETF? I'm curious what you found.

Ignore my query as I have worked out you didn't try this yet...

 

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

Ignore my query as I have worked out you didn't try this yet...

 

I must have been tired of all the comparisons, and omitted this one on the basis of the U192ETL + Terminator combo SQ deteriorating by just adding streaming (E vs G). So why add streaming at all? Well, because most of the buzz here is about the ECD combo mitigating the upstream noise. So I added H and here is the result (subjective of course as always):

 

This shows how successful the ECD combo is. H at least equals E, so that is a great job. Plus all the convenience that comes with it. And the cost effectiveness. (I think I could do without the Terminator if I did not have the SDTrans384 or want to listen to native DSD once in a while.)

 

Sorry to have kept all in suspense, but for me this looks like the icing on the cake.

My problem now -- but also fun -- is that I have too many great sounding options to choose from.

Time will learn what I will settle into...

 

If I would be convicted to H only, I would be a happy man.

[tapatrick]

25 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

I must have been tired of all the comparisons, and omitted this one on the basis of the U192ETL + Terminator combo SQ deteriorating by just adding streaming (E vs G). So why add streaming at all? Well, because most of the buzz here is about the ECD combo mitigating the upstream noise. So I added H and here is the result (subjective of course as always):

 

This shows how successful the ECD combo is. H at least equals E, so that is a great job. Plus all the convenience that comes with it. And the cost effectiveness. (I think I could do without the Terminator if I did not have the SDTrans384 or want to listen to native DSD once in a while.)

 

Sorry to have kept all in suspense, but for me this looks like the icing on the cake.

My problem now -- but also fun -- is that I have too many great sounding options to choose from.

Time will learn what I will settle into...

 

If I would be convicted to H only, I would be a happy man.

Thanks for the hard work..  That's reassuring and fully agree that streaming of this quality is icing on the cake.

 

I see you tried the IsoRegen - I couldn't get mine to show up when inserted with EC combo, but I have found it to temperamental depending on what's in the chain. Not a biggie now but might try again to see if there is any difference/benefit.