Popular Post tapatrick Posted July 15, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 15, 2020 Just received my new U192 and DAC today in the post and have it plugged in to warm up streaming from my Antipodes DXe through EtherRegen. As I'm working I've not had a chance to play around with set up yet. Too early to give full assessment but first impressions are a lovely natural and relaxing sound quality with tremendous detail and impact. Already it's clear this mini combo equals or betters my SD card reference AND with streaming. This is what I have been looking for.. More later and comparisons with PS Audio Junior DAC etc.. Norton, RickyV and Qhwoeprktiyns 3 Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 The top of the units have a plastic film protection sheet you can take off, to reveal the glossy cover. No effect on the sound 😁 Link to comment
tapatrick Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, hopkins said: The top of the units have a plastic film protection sheet you can take off, to reveal the glossy cover. No effect on the sound 😁 I know... thanks Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. Link to comment
tapatrick Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Just having short listening session this evening between other tasks. Have to say this is a mesmerising sound quality! Not the only aspect of the sound but the acid test for me is with troublesome cymbals and sibilance on some favourite tracks - the ECD combo passed with flying colours which shows the removal of a layer that makes me relax deeply. To be honest I just want to listen but have to tear myself away... Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Lol. Glad you are enjoying it. Its quite special, the UPL at least, since I have not yet heard the "improved" U192, but it sounds like it could be a winner. Looking forward to further impressions. tapatrick 1 Link to comment
Popular Post bodiebill Posted July 15, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 15, 2020 On 7/14/2020 at 4:06 PM, bodiebill said: I really like the preamp. For the U192ETL (which I am using with a Terminator) I do not want to say anything hasty, so I will take some time for comparisons... Based on my first impressions of the U192ETL (and SVC24) I also ordered the DA96ETF. @hopkins should be happy 🙂 I still need some time to carefully compare all options (quite many now with the SD transports, Terminator and ECdesigns converter and DAC), but will report back here. tapatrick and Qhwoeprktiyns 2 audio system Link to comment
Huubster Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Wow, more happy ECD owners coming in, nice to see! @bodiebill: I did experiment with different USB cables, going from my streamer to the U192, and it sure makes a difference. So completely immune to noise or whatever magic is in those 'audiophile' cables, is the U192 not. I play with the first version though, not the updated version. Sometimes I tell myself it's about time I get on the phone and call John and request for the update. Though I have a very rare thing happening to me currently. I'm so happy with the sound as is, that I'm actually reluctant to sent my U192 back in for an update. In normal life my body screams for updates, the sooner the better, but not now, with this awesome trio comfortably sitting on my audiorack. Actually I'm patiently waiting on @hopkinsfindings, and probably will give John a call right after reading the first results.... Link to comment
Popular Post bodiebill Posted July 15, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 15, 2020 Ok, here goes, but only first impressions... Like @Huubster I tried different usb cables with the U192. In my case a stock usb cable versus Lush² => linearly powered ISO Regen => Lush. The difference was notable, but less obvious than without the U192. For the comparisons below, I kept the latter. I also compared foobar2000 (Windows on SATA drive) and wtfplay (Linux on usb stick) running on the same PC. The former was mediocre, the latter much more musical. So the U192 seems to add SOME but not FULL immunity to PC pollution. Setups compared: A PC/Windows foobar2000 => usb => U192ETL => ElectroTos => Terminator B PC/Linux wtfplay => usb => Terminator C PC/Linux wtfplay => usb => U192ETL => ElectroTos => Terminator D PC => network => HXMelody HX500 UPnP => I2S => Terminator E HXMelody HX500 SD card => I2S => Terminator SQ (relaxation, resolution, analogue character, holographic experience) to my ears was as follows: E > D >= C >> B >> A and shows the merit of the U192 by itself (i.e. without the Fractal DAC). C gives me the best sound I ever had using a PC source. The HX500 with I2S still wins, but C is getting close and I do like its smooth sound signature. Hence my curiosity to take the next step and try C with the Fractal DAC (on order) to compare this with the Terminator. Such luxury, being able to make these comparisons, also with the SDTrans384 on its way from Japan. I am betting I will end up with two setups, one (Spartan, minimalist, inconvenient) for really serious listening and one (versatile, user-friendly) for browsing. It does however look like it that the SQ gap between these two is narrowing. To be continued... jaynyc and matthias 2 audio system Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 @bodiebill interesting findings. Am eager to do some experimenting soon (will be able to compare with the UPL, and compare wtfplay vs foobar, but not USB cables), and am curious to see if you will reach the same conclusions regarding "immunity" with the FractalDac (though my understanding is that this would not be linked to the DAC at all, but who knows...). Reading over John Brown's explanations - for example recently on his DIYAudio thread, he states that the U192 offers "band limited (20MHz) output for minimum noise injection into the DAC". So "minimum" not being zero, I assume you could still hear differences - but then why would the U192 with a non-audiophile PC (simple USB cable) be "undistinguishable" from the UPL96 (quoting him), which itself has very low noise ? Comparing previous versions of the UPL always offered better performance (to my and others' ears) than USB sources - whether wtfplay, or other sophisticated sources... so that is not consistent - or is my reasoning flawed ? Many questions still ! Small question - when using Foobar2000 did you bypass Windows audio, using Asio4All, for example, to make sure playback is "bit perfect" ? Link to comment
bodiebill Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 27 minutes ago, hopkins said: ... and am curious to see if you will reach the same conclusions regarding "immunity" with the FractalDac (though my understanding is that this would not be linked to the DAC at all, but who knows...). As I understand this alleged immunity should be the result of the U192 + Fractal DAC combination, where the former is a prerequisite for the latter to make any sound at all. So not sure what you mean to say in brackets. 27 minutes ago, hopkins said: Reading over John Brown's explanations - for example recently on his DIYAudio thread, he states that the U192 offers "band limited (20MHz) output for minimum noise injection into the DAC". So "minimum" not being zero, I assume you could still hear differences - but then why would the U192 with a non-audiophile PC (simple USB cable) be "undistinguishable" from the UPL96 (quoting him), which itself has very low noise ? Comparing previous versions of the UPL always offered better performance (to my and others' ears) than USB sources - whether wtfplay, or other sophisticated sources... so that is not consistent - or is my reasoning flawed ? Many questions still ! Valid questions. For the reasons you mention I expect full immunity to be too good to be true, but we will find out... Quote Small question - when using Foobar2000 did you bypass Windows audio, using Asio4All, for example, to make sure playback is "bit perfect" ? No, I did not go through that trouble. What Windows player SW could you recommend? I might try XXHighEnd. But to be honest, I am relieved I got rid of Windows (an OS that needs a lot of 'taming') for audio playback. (I still use Windows on a control PC with JRiver as database, or with UPPlay/Minimserver when I use the HX500 as UPnP renderer.) audio system Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 The brackets were simply to state that maybe something had escaped me. Anyway, lets see what happens when the FractalDac comes into the equation. For Windows, Foobar is ok as a start, and you can follow the instructions here to use it with Asio4All: https://headphoneaddict.com/howto-run-bit-perfect-foobar-tutorial/ The images in the link are gone, so I included below a screen copy showing where you set the output using the Asio4All component in Foobar. You need to double-click on the highlited (blue) line, to get the ASIO4ALL popup that lets you select your sound card (in this example I don't have the U192 connected to my PC) All you need is to download and install Asio4All, and the corresponding foobar component. One small thing to keep in mind, is that the sound card (ECD U192) will be used in "exclusive" mode, and if you want to alternate between different apps you cannot have them open at the same time. This would not be a problem using your windows PC to communicate with the HX500 however. Using Asio4All is not going to change the "noise" level of the PC, but may avoid bit-manipulations in windows. Make sure you set the volume to 100% in foobar as an added precaution... Link to comment
matthias Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 50 minutes ago, bodiebill said: A PC/Windows foobar2000 => usb => U192ETL => ElectroTos => Terminator B PC/Linux wtfplay => usb => Terminator Interesting that with B>>A the better software of the source outperforms the better hardware of the USB Interface. Matt bodiebill 1 "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Here is a better link for instructions on asio4all: https://www.audialonline.com/articles/bypassing-windows-audio-mixer/ Link to comment
Racerxnet Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 20 minutes ago, hopkins said: Here is a better link for instructions on asio4all: https://www.audialonline.com/articles/bypassing-windows-audio-mixer/ Asio4all is such a old hack, I'm surprised you recommend this. WASAPI or kernel streaming would be a better choice over the above recommendation. Coverflow is a cool addition to foobar. Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/shop/u192etl Quote Based on XMOS XU208. Apparently XMOS-based devices could make use of driver from a different manufacturer as mentioned below https://www.head-fi.org/threads/topping-d30-dsd-dac-xmos-cs4398.821559/page-32#post-15232589 https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/topping-d30-no-official-xmos-windows-10-drivers.842912/ Current driver version for XMOS is 4.86.0.42594 and they're including ASIO support already http://www.soncoz.com/uploads/1/2/7/2/127246176/soncoz_usb_audio_dfu_tool.zip http://support.bryston.com/downloads/USB Drivers/v4.86.0/Bryston_USB_DriverSetup_v4.86.0.exe If that weren't working, please try 4.82.0 instead http://jlsounds.com/uploads/JLsounds_USBAudio_v4.82.0.exe http://www.tphifi.net/drivers/topping_usbaudio_setup_v4.82.0.zip https://download.shenzhenaudio.com/Gustard/A18/Gustard_UsbAudio_v4.82.0_setup.exe https://fichiers.touslesdrivers.com/64808/Audeze_UsbAudio_v4.82.0_2020-01-17_setup.exe http://support.bryston.com/downloads/USB Drivers/v4.82.0/Bryston_USB_DriverSetup_v4.82.0.exe https://www.mutec-net.com/downloads/manuals/MUTEC_USB2.0_Audio_Driver_V4.82.0_03-2020.zip https://spl.audio/wp-content/uploads/_downloads/SPLelectronics_TUSBAudio_v4.82.0_2020-01-17_setup.exe https://techsupport.cambridgeaudio.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/360006976798/USB2.0_driver_v4.82.0.zip ASIO support https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_asio https://www.foobar2000.org/getcomponent/d1b6ccaf4206736daadadd72667d49c3/658d864c9811f00c8c93d781f8f30c61/foo_out_asio.fb2k-component WASAPI output support https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_wasapi https://www.foobar2000.org/getcomponent/0db74e427a9da7d9477e3a6ef8864d99/c0d1ceba18d6aa494838a34485b4bc0a/WASAPI.fb2k-component WASAPI shared output https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_wasapis https://www.foobar2000.org/getcomponent/6e1b053a3b9e3b06eef8d25bb81d9db4/7b1a39511d0d385bb30dec8f0e09ebb2/foo_out_wasapis.fb2k-component Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Yes Wasapi is fine as long as you go into your sound driver settings and check "exclusive mode". I prefer using Asio4all, but that is a detail. The point is to avoid Windows 10 DirectSound. As for drivers there is no need to install anything. Link to comment
Norton Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 9 hours ago, hopkins said: and am curious to see if you will reach the same conclusions regarding "immunity" with the FractalDac (though my understanding is that this would not be linked to the DAC at all, but who knows...). The immediate difference being that only with the DAC96 is the ElectroTos interface being deployed, rather than Spdif via optical. Whether and how this will affect “source-independence” I don’t have sufficient technical understanding to know, and of course in back to back listening comparisons there could be a whole range of reasons why the DAC96 will sound different, unconnected to the interface. Certainly my UPL into my Oppo205 didn’t sound anywhere near as good as with the DAC96. Link to comment
Popular Post Qhwoeprktiyns Posted July 16, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 16, 2020 John Brown posted a lengthy reply over at DIYAudio: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-post6277163.html His conclusion concerning this topic: "After many sleepless nights I came up with one other option and this one finally worked, it fixed the USB issue. Not only that, when applied to the UPL96ETL reference, even that reference improved significantly. Now both, UPL96ETL and U192ETL perform on a virtually similar level. Sure there will still be small audible differences, nothing is perfect, but when these are very difficult to hear or cannot be heard at all by direct comparison with a reference, it is more than good enough." It is interesting to not that his tests were conducted with various configurations, but all using the FractalDAC. I completely agree with Norton concerning the value of the Fractal DAC and don't think it is really worthwhile speculating too much about the U192 performance in another context. Bit-perfect playback is of course recommended, but also switching off (as much as possible) wifi, Bluetooth, cell phones, that could generate interferences - at least when you do critical comparisons. Not always easy to do, but worth a try. He mentions his newest project (PowerDAC) which is based on the U192 + FractalDAC, and some pretty novel amplification solutions. As he said "more about this later". matthias and tapatrick 1 1 Link to comment
bodiebill Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 9 hours ago, hopkins said: One small thing to keep in mind, is that the sound card (ECD U192) will be used in "exclusive" mode, and if you want to alternate between different apps you cannot have them open at the same time. This would not be a problem using your windows PC to communicate with the HX500 however. This would be no problem as my UPnP setup is (1) Windows control PC with UPPlay and Minimserver (not in audio room, powerful i9, formerly heavy lifting HQPlayer embedded server; this is also used for format conversions, JRiver database etc.) => (2) audio PC (in audio room, small footprint & low power, Linux or Windows ad lib) => (3) DAC Better sounding is the one box setup with just (2) => (3) where the PC has local files (preferably copied to Optane nvme disk, SATA disabled). And even better is the minimal setup with SD transport and I2S. These setups show increasing SQ and decreasing convenience. This may seem a bit off topic, but I hope the ECdesigns gear can overhaul this layout by conjoining SQ and convenience. audio system Link to comment
bodiebill Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, hopkins said: I completely agree with Norton concerning the value of the Fractal DAC and don't think it is really worthwhile speculating too much about the U192 performance in another context. Still I find it encouraging that the U192ETL apparently already makes a positive difference on its own, i.e. without the Fractal DAC. audio system Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 18 minutes ago, bodiebill said: Still I find it encouraging that the U192ETL apparently already makes a positive difference on its own, i.e. without the Fractal DAC. Yes, I did not mean to discourage you or imply that they were not useful. You did note less effect of the source - of course its disappointing you don't immediately notice "full immunity" (which as ECD pointed out will probably never be fully achieved), but lets see what happens with the Fractal DAC thrown in there. I'm also curious to have your feedback on the comparison to the Terminator. This is all very interesting and exciting to follow 😊 Link to comment
Popular Post bodiebill Posted July 16, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 16, 2020 20 minutes ago, hopkins said: Yes, I did not mean to discourage you or imply that they were not useful. You did note less effect of the source - of course its disappointing you don't immediately notice "full immunity" (which as ECD pointed out will probably never be fully achieved), but lets see what happens with the Fractal DAC thrown in there. I'm also curious to have your feedback on the comparison to the Terminator. It was encouraging rather than discouraging 🙂 After this initial improvement with the U192ETL alone I can look forward to a further one with the Fractal DAC. I will report back when I have it... tapatrick, Qhwoeprktiyns and matthias 3 audio system Link to comment
tapatrick Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 4 hours ago, hopkins said: ...and some pretty novel amplification solutions. As he said "more about this later". Interesting news, thanks for posting as I was starting to wonder about amplification. Although everything sounds perfect as it now stands and I stayed up too late last night lost in the music ... Qhwoeprktiyns 1 Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 3 hours ago, tapatrick said: Interesting news, thanks for posting as I was starting to wonder about amplification. Although everything sounds perfect as it now stands and I stayed up too late last night lost in the music ... I'm assuming you are enjoying the Fractal/U192 combo? 🙂 tapatrick 1 Link to comment
jwr159 Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 I am intently following this thread and remain interested in the U192ETL/Fractal combination, but am somewhat dismayed that there is still no shipping outside of the EU. I do have a dumb question. With either a Toslink or Coax source, what options or solutions are available to use the U192ETL/Fractal DAC? Is there a way to do a conversion to USB? Or any chance EC Designs comes out with an Coax/SPDIF/Toslink version of the U192ETL? Thanks Link to comment
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