ECdesigns

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, Huubster said:

 

@hopkins: I think your U192 is an important test case for them, I understood your U192 is received and already upgraded, and will be the first 'modified' version to be delivered.

 

Not sure about that. From my correspondence with John (translated from Dutch):

"The U192ETL modification regards a band-limiter circuit that decreases PC disturbance (that enters the U192ETL via USB) with a factor of approx. 250 before the signal is passed on to the DAC. Thereby the source dependance and related degrading should just about be solved."

 

And upon my question whether I received the new version:

"De U192ETL that you received is the new version with band-limiter circuit."

 

I will check with John in due time.

[Huubster]

24 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

And upon my question whether I received the new version:

"De U192ETL that you received is the new version with band-limiter circuit."

 

That will be true Bodiebill, then you received the version of the latest batch. I meant to say that Hopkins' version is the first original one being upgraded to the latest version. 

[bodiebill]

Guess you are right! In any case, I am looking forward to receiving the Fractal DAC beginning of next week 🙂

[tapatrick]

I tried streaming through a macbook pro laptop to test further if the U192/Fractal DAC is really source independent. Well ( in my system) there seems to be a noticeable difference between the laptop and my Antipodes music server. Laptop = hints of harshness that I hate with a flattering of the sound. Antipodes = holographic, full of ease, subtle details and no real contest.

 

I also tried powering the DAC with a clean 5v from a Paul Hynes SR4 and not a lot of difference between this and supplied power supply. I'm keeping the 5V USB injection on the U192 though.

 

John explained his new Power DAC project in an email today. This is an exciting development - he states it will completely eliminate the analogue signal path, will be virtually free of any distortion that will be able to drive 90db sensitive speakers and upwards. Due early 2021.

[tapatrick]

11 hours ago, hopkins said:

...realistic music reproduction

I get what you have been posting about recording quality now. I listen to a lot of live recordings and with the U192/Fractal DAC some project a convincing realistic ambience and others less so. At the extremes it is as if they are either a whole sound or are hollowed out. This has probably got a lot to do with processing in the studio, but whatever it is recording quality is more exposed in a way I have not been so aware of before.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

12 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

I tried streaming through a macbook pro laptop to test further if the U192/Fractal DAC is really source independent. Well ( in my system) there seems to be a noticeable difference between the laptop and my Antipodes music server. Laptop = hints of harshness that I hate with a flattering of the sound. Antipodes = holographic, full of ease, subtle details and no real contest.

 

I also tried powering the DAC with a clean 5v from a Paul Hynes SR4 and not a lot of difference between this and supplied power supply. I'm keeping the 5V USB injection on the U192 though.

 

John explained his new Power DAC project in an email today. This is an exciting development - he states it will completely eliminate the analogue signal path, will be virtually free of any distortion that will be able to drive 90db sensitive speakers and upwards. Due early 2021.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I am now getting a little confused about the so called "source immunity". Could you report this back to John and ask him what he thinks ?

 

It will be interesting to compare the U192 with the UPL to at least see if they provide similar SQ...

[matthias]

1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

I tried streaming through a macbook pro laptop to test further if the U192/Fractal DAC is really source independent. Well ( in my system) there seems to be a noticeable difference between the laptop and my Antipodes music server. Laptop = hints of harshness that I hate with a flattering of the sound. Antipodes = holographic, full of ease, subtle details and no real contest.

 

Thanks for sharing, exactly what I expected.

 

Matt

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

Thanks for the feedback. I am now getting a little confused about the so called "source immunity". Could you report this back to John and ask him what he thinks ?

 

It will be interesting to compare the U192 with the UPL to at least see if they provide similar SQ...

I will do the test a couple of more times, with different tracks just to make sure and put things in perspective. These are relative distinctions I'm making between two very good sounding solutions and John did say there might be minor distinctions. I look forward to hearing your impressions too.

[Michael L]

From my reading of comments on the new EC Designs products I get the impression that they offer very good value for money. I wonder though if expections are perhaps a little unreasonable. Providing a streaming source from a device costing as much as a small car will I'm sure deliver some increase in SQ.

Comparisons can kill satisfaction in hifi as I'm sure we've all found.

As good as John's engineering is, these products are built to a certain budget - happily one that many normal mortals can afford. Maybe at twice the price some further minor improvements could be made to filter nasties from streaming sources.

It's all about diminishing returns though isn't it.

 

 

[bodiebill]

38 minutes ago, Michael L said:

From my reading of comments on the new EC Designs products I get the impression that they offer very good value for money. I wonder though if expections are perhaps a little unreasonable. Providing a streaming source from a device costing as much as a small car will I'm sure deliver some increase in SQ.

Comparisons can kill satisfaction in hifi as I'm sure we've all found.

As good as John's engineering is, these products are built to a certain budget - happily one that many normal mortals can afford. Maybe at twice the price some further minor improvements could be made to filter nasties from streaming sources.

It's all about diminishing returns though isn't it.

 

Listening impressions are key here. Assumptions like these, made to reduce cognitive dissonance, are less valuable in my opinion. I would rather be surprised than confirmed.

[tapatrick]

49 minutes ago, Michael L said:

all about diminishing returns though isn't it.

I agree it mostly seems to be that way with audio, but I would politely challenge this assessment in reference to the latest EC products - they are a revelation even running from a basic source. I know its easy and common to rave about this kind of stuff when next week moving on to something else etc. My comments for what they are worth on a forum like this are relative comparisons within a context of being very happy and using the equipment I already have in addition to the U192 and Fractal DAC. In this context something being better or worse than something else is no disappointment. I hope I make this clear.

 

The only way you can tell for sure is in your own system and I highly recommend you try if you can - if you are looking for a cost effective, refreshing sound quality. I am not connected to EC Designs in any way except as a happy customer curious about John's journey of development which I discovered on this thread. 

 

Like many audiophiles I have been searching for just this result for many years with lots of experimenting, diy (fun) and a fair amount of cost but not astronomical like some folks with more resources. I eventually became disillusioned with the ever diminishing, residual but inescapable 'digital' sound of even the best I could afford. John describes this in his long posting. The EC combo (amazingly with streaming thrown in!) is a welcome breakthrough in my experience. With this EC combo I can relax into the music deeply and these days that is worth a lot! 

[Michael L]

20 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

 

 

The only way you can tell for sure is in your own system and I highly recommend you try if you can - if you are looking for a cost effective, refreshing sound quality.

 

I am indeed a fan of EC Designs producs having bought the UPL16 and MOS16. I am just wary of spending again when I have owned their previous products only a year. I am happy though that the MOS16 sounds better - in particular more natural than my old Schiit Mobi MB. 

I may try making an electro-tos type lead to see what more performance I can wring from the DAC.

For serious listening I tend to go to my vinyl but I am excited that EC Designs are making these strides in improving digital audio. Good mc cartridges aren't cheap!

[tapatrick]

4 minutes ago, Michael L said:

For serious listening I tend to go to my vinyl but I am excited that EC Designs are making these strides in improving digital audio. Good mc cartridges aren't cheap!

Yes, no one is an audiophile to save money !

I can appreciate the fast moving conveyor belt of EC products must be frustrating for current customers. Not sure what the solution is to this but maybe a time limited upgrade program is needed. I have been tempted to go back to vinyl over the past year but have put this on hold now...

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

3 minutes ago, Michael L said:

I may try making an electro-tos type lead to see what more performance I can wring from the DAC.

 

Some people experimented with that on DIYAudio. I had the chance of getting my (previous) UPL modified by John to implement the ElectroTos interlink and it was a clear upgrade from the toslink interlink (both in my system with the MOS16, and playing the UPL on a Terminator DAC at a friends') - now that I have had a chance to listen to the newer models, I would say that change was more akin to "fine tuning" whereas the new models are in a different league IMO.

[tapatrick]

I did some more focussed listening tests today, with lots of back and forth so here are my thoughts, bearing in mind the nature of listening reports, biases, different systems, ears, moods etc etc. Also I kept getting drawn into the music. For what its worth this kind of focussed listening is not a natural way to enjoy music but to evaluate differences in equipment. I look forward to hearing others opinions on sources too when they have had the chance.

 

Listening tests:

A - Macbook on battery (various music players with local files and then Roon streaming ) > USB (EC UC250 USB cable interlink with DIY added 5v injection from a Paul Hynes SR4) > U192ETL > ElectroTos cable > Fractal DAC powered by 5V from a Paul Hynes SR4 > EC AI100 RCA cables > rest of system as in my signature

 

B - Macbook on battery Roon Core > Antipodes as Roon Endpoint > USB (EC UC250 USB cable interlink with DIY added 5v injection from a Paul Hynes SR4) > U192ETL > ElectroTos cable > Fractal DAC powered by 5V from a Paul Hynes SR4 > EC AI100 RCA cables > rest of system as in my signature

 

C - Antipodes Roon core > USB (EC UC250 USB cable interlink with DIY added 5v injection from a Paul Hynes SR4) > U192ETL > ElectroTos cable > Fractal DAC powered by 5V from a Paul Hynes SR4 > EC AI100 RCA cables > rest of system as in my signature

 

Conclusion:

A - Tried Vox music player with local files, Swinsian music player with local files and Roon streaming from Tidal: Conclusion - I could not tell a difference between these different players if there was one. Over all SQ - excellent.

 

B - same SQ as A, very slight improvement over A but only noticed with very focussed listening.

 

C - My favourite but only by a very small margin, a little more ease - Is this bias? possibly but does confirm my previous conclusion. I want to make clear this is not a big difference to me in the scheme of things and does support the claim that the EC products do an amazing job of blocking what comes before.

 

I hope this helps estimating the value of the latest EC products. What is very clear to me though if these latest products were available a couple years ago I would not have spent so much on sources, but thats the nature of audio. Now back to the music... 

 

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Thanks @tapatrick for this very clear and informative feedback. 👍 

 

The previous version of the U192 did not quite provide, to my ears (and I think Norton's as well) the "magic" of the UPL with the Fractal DAC. So this is very encourageing, and I hope to confirm that by the end of the week. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Huubster]

That's pretty amazing, thanks @tapatrick.

 

Still curious how it will hold up against the UPL, that thing is just amazing and betters the u192 with a good source by quite a margin. If the new U192 is like the UPL, like John states, oh boy, oh boy.. :D

 

[bodiebill]

Just a quick note: today I received the DA96ETF. Right out of the box I hear a very natural and effortless sound when combined with with the U192ETL converter and SVC24 volume control. 'Analogue' is much misused but in place here. Best SQ I have had so far with PC as a source. I will report back in due time when I have compared different setups (Terminator, SD transports etc.). But by now I do understand what all the buzz here is about! And I like how John and his team stay relatively silent, i.e. avoid commercial pep talk, and let others decide for themselves. Best approach in the long run :-).

[Norton]

3 hours ago, bodiebill said:

Best SQ I have had so far with PC as a source.

For a few €000 extra and a bit of time prepping USB sticks, you might want to consider the UPL too, now you are near “all in” with ECD.  To my ears the DAC/UPL96 combo is often just astonishingly good (like now with RBCD of Solti Mahler 2). With further listening and reflection, I don’t think I’ve ever owned or heard digital products that represent such a step change in SQ.  Unfortunately, I still can’t compare yet with the revised UPL192, but I’d be surprised if there really was no difference at all.

[tapatrick]

8 minutes ago, Norton said:

but I’d be surprised if there really was no difference at all.

I'm looking forward to hearing about surprises....

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

53 minutes ago, Norton said:

For a few €000 extra and a bit of time prepping USB sticks, you might want to consider the UPL too, now you are near “all in” with ECD.  To my ears the DAC/UPL96 combo is often just astonishingly good (like now with RBCD of Solti Mahler 2). With further listening and reflection, I don’t think I’ve ever owned or heard digital products that represent such a step change in SQ.  Unfortunately, I still can’t compare yet with the revised UPL192, but I’d be surprised if there really was no difference at all.

 

My upgraded U192 is on its way home, so I should report back soon (a few days). 

 

@bodiebill, curious to hear more! 

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

 

My upgraded U192 is on its way home, so I should report back soon (a few days).

 

Curious to hear more! 🙂

 

Quote

 

@bodiebill, curious to hear more! 

 

I will soon leave for a short trip, until Sunday, so it will probably be next week.

 

First impressions, in addition to what I mentioned above:

The U192ETL/DA96ETF combination is not source independent. This is what I expected and neither do I see this as a problem.

I now have stellar SQ with (1) a minimalist SATA-less PC with a small Optane NVme drive fed by a Paul Hynes SR4 19V running wtfplay from a usb stick.

I also tried (2) playing from an external usb HD (with 5V LPSU) and then (3) streaming to the same PC running Gentooplayer mpd/upmpdcli, but in both latter cases SQ is not good enough. (Yes, we are getting spoiled.)

So I do have great SQ with  PC source, but only when I detach the network and the external usb drive. This means there is some inconvenience as I need to copy files to the Optane drive. On the other hand this enables me to convert flac to wav while copying (I am using xrecode3)  which gives a slight improvement.

This setup seems to equal the stand-alone HXMelody HX500 SD transport with the Terminator. Of course sound signatures are slightly different. More about that later.

 

@Norton I am already imagining the ultimate battle between the SDTrans384 (mine has just cleared customs, so I hope to pick it up soon), the new U192ETL and the new UPL192ETL, but it is all going a bit fast now, so I will first await @hopkins's report.

 

By the way, does anyone know whether it is possible to feed the U96ETL with I2S using some conversion? Then I could find out how the SDTrans sounds with the ECdesigns combo vs the Terminator.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Thanks. I don't think there is any way to feed your SDTrans into the U96ETL. 

[matthias]

20 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

By the way, does anyone know whether it is possible to feed the U96ETL with I2S using some conversion? Then I could find out how the SDTrans sounds with the ECdesigns combo vs the Terminator.

 

Here the answer from ECD to a similar question on diyaudio:

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-767.html#post6274638

 

Matt

[bodiebill]

12 minutes ago, matthias said:

Here the answer from ECD to a similar question on diyaudio:

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/79452-building-ultimate-nos-dac-using-tda1541a-767.html#post6274638

 

19 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Thanks. I don't think there is any way to feed your SDTrans into the U96ETL. 

 

I was rather thinking of an external converter / DDC: I2S to USB. Unlike the opposite direction, this seems rare. There may be some studio devices doing that involving AES. I think I will let it go... 🙂