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1 hour ago, jwr159 said:

Nice set up Hopkins. I see that you are all in with EC Designs. I am not at all familiar with their amps, which apparently they no longer make since they are not posted on their web site. Can you explain a bit about them and what speakers are you using? 

 

I am thinking ahead a bit with the assumption I will eventually be able to purchase the U192ETL  USB transport and DA96ETF DAC. With this combination, is there any value in using a USB regen/reclocker device between the source (a computer) and the transport? Or does the U192ETL eliminate noise/jitter issues with the incoming USB signal during the conversion to Toslink? Any opinions?  

 

I do come across as a bit of an ECD "fanboy" in more ways then one :) I also have a Lavardin ISX integrated amplifier, which I use, and I alternate and compare the amps/preamps. I got the Lavardin because:

- I heard it in a demo with my speakers and liked it

- ECD's amps which I liked share some common aspects (thermal memory distortion...)

- I wanted something with multiple inputs

 

Right now my Lavardin amp has a problem that needs to be fixed, and I use only ECD's amps, and honestly they perform just as well. 

My setup (with ECD's previous models) is described here: 

Its a "mid-fi" system, definitely not high end, but offers sufficient resolution to be able to enjoy improvements in the source/DAC. 

 

As for your second question, I cannot answer. Because there is a difference between the UPL96ETL and the U192ETL, we can assume that the source still matters. The question is then - what does it take to get a regular computer source up to the level of their USB key player (UPL96) ? Is it possible ? I have no idea !

 

Of course many people here are convinced that improvements can be made, and i do not dismiss that, far from it. But with the previous UPL, it did sound better than a pretty optimized system i had a chance to compare it to (and mentionned in this thread). This is  a discussion that can only be settled by listening comparisons. I have heard some pretty expensive systems that sounded great, but also some that did not, but have not heard everything obviously. 

 

For example, a guy here in Paris claims that his Sonic Frontier DAC fed by a Metrum Ambre with an optimized network (EtherRegen and linear power supplies) sounds "analog". I have not had a chance to listen to it. Hard to know what everyone is refering to unless you actually sit down and listen and compare. 

 

They do have a further improvement to the U192 (and the UPL96) that I understand they will offer very soon (for existing customers this  will require returning the units for a small upgrade), which will bring it up a notch but again, not quite to the performance level of the UPL96. This has to be confirmed by them. The improvement is "internal" and has to do with noise coming out of the processors (XMOS for the U192 and ST microcontroller for the UPL96).  

 

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I'd say your set up is very close or essentially high end, but without the high end prices. IMHO the performance difference between fair priced gear from select small, innovative vendors is just as good if not better than the big names. Case in point is the EC Designs and Lavardin for the former. With the latter, there is lots of snake oil, expensive chassis, marketing hype, dealer markups, etc. I have not heard of Davis speakers before. I bet they are very nice. 

 

Any comments on EC Design 192/DAC vs other DAC, I am all ears..... Enjoy. 

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Here's a little story for you. I went last year to the "Salon Haute-Fidelité" in Paris and heard a system that I, and another "trusted" Audiophile friend, were really impressed with. It was composed of the following:

 

- AudioNec SDV5-S source, 40.000 € - http://www.audionec.com/sdv5-s.html

- Kora TB140 integrated amplifier - 5.000 € https://kora.fr/en/homepage/

- AudioNec Evo 1 speakers - 20.000 € http://www.audionec.com/evo1.html

 

I was particularly struck listening to this track, which is a really good test track for any system, in my opinion (it can be purchased on Qobuz):

 

 

In that system, there was a very good placement of the instruments, space, but above all, the instruments sounded "realistic" (live). 

 

I was disappointed when I cam home and listened to it, at the time with the MOS16 DAC and previous version of the UPL. I have heard it since in other systems, and I never thought they were able to reproduce that same "realism".  Some systems sound smoother than others, have better placement, the instruments are more distinct, etc.. but there is (very) often that little something missing (or added) that cries "digital reproduction" and lacks credibility.

 

You could argue that I was not comparing things directly but from memory. However, the overall impression a system makes on you is something that can be strong and last...

 

Well, since playing it on the new Fractal DAC and new UPL, and even though my speakers are obviously limited, I have that same sense of realism, and it sounds completely natural and effortless. Its a difficult quality to get out of a home hi-fi system, but an essantial one IMO. There are probably more than one ways to get there (vinyl ? Taiko Extreme ?, etc...). I am sure better speakers (and a better room) will improve the sound I listen to at home, and I would be curious now to hear the ECD source/DAC in that same system :)

 

Some people may be sensitive to other aspects of sound than this sense of realism.

 

 

 

 

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Looks like Fractal DAC is finally on track with their 1st Mosaic DAC regarding the realism and details. The 2 DACs (MOS and USB) before Fractal were regarded by some as step back from Mosaic. 
So Fractal + external LPSU and U192 resemble in their basic architecture to the Mosaic + external PSU and XTOS, where both U192 and XTOS are USB to optical converters.
As such i am sure U192 will profit from reclocker like RUR, if the rest of the chain is up to task. Also feeding the RUR with some high quality makes big difference (and in my cable, the power cable connected to this PSU), influences the sound of Mosaic and XTOS. Now U192 might bit better than XTOS but as hopking pointed out, it still can be enhanced, so reclocker and USB cables will make a difference.

So also USB cables matter a lot, i can recommend Curious Evolved. I use 2x  20cm Evolved, one into the reclocker and other into XTOS, and it makes all the difference!
Had to switch now to Black Magic 2m USB cable (as 1st in the chain), and while it now sounds pretty "analog", the realism and emotional  involvement are gone!
In the mid-term i will switch to Curious Evolved 2m, though i suspect 10x longer length will also influence the sound, but i hope not too much like using completely different USB cable.
 

Macbook Pro 2015 > JCAT XE USB > Matrix X SPDIF3 > AyES > Mutec MC3+ > EC Designs PowerDAC B > Topping Pre90 > Wadia a102 > Cardas SE9 cables > John Blue JB3 speakers. All Clear cables Cardas IC, AyES, Beyond & XL

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I get so much pleasure from my vinyl set up I wonder if I should just be content with a digital system for background listening.

Mind it has cost quite a lot of money for the former even buying second hand (Pink Triangle PT1 vectored/Zeta arm/Transconfiguration cart). I imagine it would take some beating with a digital system.

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I had a HiEnd vinyl set with Cardas Silver Myrtle Heart cartridge, but sold it all. It is different. It had the feeling of what i hear at a live amplified concert.

With Mosaic DAC i hear more details, but also had to invest a lot into accompanying cables. With vinyl cables were less important, components mattered more. With Mosaic music is more like what was recorded at studio, but with higl elvel of intimacy and being there

Macbook Pro 2015 > JCAT XE USB > Matrix X SPDIF3 > AyES > Mutec MC3+ > EC Designs PowerDAC B > Topping Pre90 > Wadia a102 > Cardas SE9 cables > John Blue JB3 speakers. All Clear cables Cardas IC, AyES, Beyond & XL

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Thanks for sharing the links to the "high end" components, all of which I was not previously aware of. The quality and uniqueness of audio equipment coming out of Europe far surpasses the typical gear sold here in the USA. Needless to say, almost all my components come from Europe. 

 

My system, which I thoroughly enjoy, includes:

 - A pair of Fertin field coil drivers, made in France, in an open baffle. These drivers are now about 15 years old and the particular model is no longer made. 

-  Model S USB DAC, a TDA1541 based dac designed and built by Pedja Rogic. 

 - Model A integrated amp also from Audial

 - pair of TBI Audio subs. 

 

All my components are mid-priced, but offer very high performance for the cost IMHO. I find the sound extremely pleasing, emotional. You can listen all day, day after day, without ever getting fatigue. It all starts with the dac, which is decidedly natural in sound. The integrated amp is just a well executed gain clone, simple in design, a very short signal path, and just a handful of components. And no cross-over for the drivers really helps maintain the emotion in the music with no filter to suck the life out of the music. 

 

I was considering upgrading my dac to a newer Audial dac. But the ECD fractal dac & transport has really caught my attention.  

 

I also have a Garrard 401 and a nice tone arm, both are boxed up. I am reluctant to set them up until after (hopefully) I receive the fractal dac & transport. My hope is that once I listen, there will be no need for vinyl. Maybe wishful thinking, but if the sound quality is so good, why bother with the hassles of records. It is hard to beat the convenience of streaming music. 

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4 hours ago, jwr159 said:

My hope is that once I listen, there will be no need for vinyl. Maybe wishful thinking


There’s always a need for vinyl.  Though IMO the ECD kit offers an unequalled combination of SQ and value for money and even though my main interest is digital these days,  just one recent session with my record deck tells me I won’t be parting ways with vinyl any time soon.  My biggest regret was selling my Loricraft  restored Garrard 301, so my advice is keep and cherish your Garrard401 and enjoy the best of both worlds.

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That is awesome news @hopkins! Haven't heard from them yet, maybe I will give John a call soon :)

 

i haven't tried your latest UPL software yet, too busy last week, will give it a try this weekend, a few audio friends come over in their curiousity for the Fractal DAC.

 

Oh, and I have to disappoint a few maybe, but my friend's comparison of the Fractal with the DCS Bartok didn't happen, sorry guys..

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It will be better to compare with the upgraded units :)

 

Yes, it will be very interesting if USB and UPL are tied (or very close). I don't think many people realize what this means - but then again very few people have listened to the UPL in its latest version (with the fractal DAC). 

 

Imagine getting a very clean sound, with zero interference, from a simple PC (with foobar, Roon, Qobuz, whatever...). No need for audiophile USB cables, linear power supplies, reclockers, ethernet regenerators, or fancy servers. 

 

This is going to be fun 🤣

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14 hours ago, hopkins said:

It will be better to compare with the upgraded units :)

 

Yes, it will be very interesting if USB and UPL are tied (or very close). I don't think many people realize what this means - but then again very few people have listened to the UPL in its latest version (with the fractal DAC). 

 

Imagine getting a very clean sound, with zero interference, from a simple PC (with foobar, Roon, Qobuz, whatever...). No need for audiophile USB cables, linear power supplies, reclockers, ethernet regenerators, or fancy servers. 

 

This is going to be fun 🤣


Well, this is the ideal state.
You will still gonna need a pretty good source and good incoming signal . What is not gonna do, it is not gonna make the incoming signal worse (to more or less extent).
Even a recklocker, which enhances the signal, cannot enhance the quality of the cable after and before recklocker, neither it can enhance the quality of the incoming current. That's why LPSU which feeds the recklocker and USB cable matter.
 

Macbook Pro 2015 > JCAT XE USB > Matrix X SPDIF3 > AyES > Mutec MC3+ > EC Designs PowerDAC B > Topping Pre90 > Wadia a102 > Cardas SE9 cables > John Blue JB3 speakers. All Clear cables Cardas IC, AyES, Beyond & XL

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1 hour ago, M_audio said:


Well, this is the ideal state.
You will still gonna need a pretty good source and good incoming signal . What is not gonna do, it is not gonna make the incoming signal worse (to more or less extent).
Even a recklocker, which enhances the signal, cannot enhance the quality of the cable after and before recklocker, neither it can enhance the quality of the incoming current. That's why LPSU which feeds the recklocker and USB cable matter.
 

 

No, my understanding is that the noise in the source is filtered in the interface, so the quality of the cable and noise of the source simply won't matter. As for reclocking, it is done within the interface as well so reclocking in the source is not relevant either. 

 

With USB, anything you do "upstream" also does not change the fact that the USB processor (xmos) in the interface generates noise as well, but that is also addressed by what they have done. 

 

The "tweaks" that you are referring to, when used in the context of a poor USB implementation may matter (marginally), but not any more... 

 

I believe ECD uses a simple MacBook as their source. Of course all this has to be tested and confirmed. 

 

The technical basis for all this (bandwidth limiting) is not "secret" and has already been described in their DIY thread, I understand its just a question of applying it at different points of the signal in the interface,  but they would explain this better. 

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On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 11:33 PM, hopkins said:

 

I have heard back from ECD. They have done further improvements to the USB interface (U192ETL) to bring it up to a level where it "becomes hard to differentiate" from  the UPL96ETL  (which itself has been improved also).

 

If that is the case there will very probably be no further improvements to be obtained by optimizing the USB source as the U192ETL will be effectively "immunized" from upstream noise -  solving issues of USB audio... I'm not going to quote them on the details of the way this is done, better leave this to them. It is quite a breakthrough IMO. 

 

I understand the second batch of products will include all these changes and they will contact existing customers individually to manage returns/upgrades. 

 

I am looking forward to  listening tests with these upgraded units. 

 

So what about a DAC with USB input?

Thanks

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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4 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Sorry, not sure I understand your question. Can you elaborate ?

 

I am not familiar with this design and reading of their HP does not help either.

So my question:

Do they offer a DAC with USB input?

Thanks

 

Matt

"I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe)

 

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2 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

No, my understanding is that the noise in the source is filtered in the interface, so the quality of the cable and noise of the source simply won't matter. As for reclocking, it is done within the interface as well so reclocking in the source is not relevant either. 

 

With USB, anything you do "upstream" also does not change the fact that the USB processor (xmos) in the interface generates noise as well, but that is also addressed by what they have done. 

 

The "tweaks" that you are referring to, when used in the context of a poor USB implementation may matter (marginally), but not any more... 

 

I believe ECD uses a simple MacBook as their source. Of course all this has to be tested and confirmed. 

 

The technical basis for all this (bandwidth limiting) is not "secret" and has already been described in their DIY thread, I understand its just a question of applying it at different points of the signal in the interface,  but they would explain this better. 


Hehe, i hope not, i love my Mosaic DAC with XTOS and don't want to upgrade after a year of tweaking it.
Yeah i know they use Apple products for testing. 
Do you have a link to DIY post/page where they explain these "new" features?
 

Macbook Pro 2015 > JCAT XE USB > Matrix X SPDIF3 > AyES > Mutec MC3+ > EC Designs PowerDAC B > Topping Pre90 > Wadia a102 > Cardas SE9 cables > John Blue JB3 speakers. All Clear cables Cardas IC, AyES, Beyond & XL

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7 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

I am not familiar with this design and reading of their HP does not help either.

So my question:

Do they offer a DAC with USB input?

Thanks

 

Matt


They dont offer a DAC with USB input, but they offer an interface with USB input called U192ETL which is a converter from USB to TOSLink or ElectroTOS format. So your good to go with that: https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/blog/u192etl

Macbook Pro 2015 > JCAT XE USB > Matrix X SPDIF3 > AyES > Mutec MC3+ > EC Designs PowerDAC B > Topping Pre90 > Wadia a102 > Cardas SE9 cables > John Blue JB3 speakers. All Clear cables Cardas IC, AyES, Beyond & XL

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2 minutes ago, hopkins said:


Thnx i know this post, it is quite informative, but i meant the a post where they explain the new enhancement of the XMOS-interface of the new current U192ETL which should make the source irrelevant.

Macbook Pro 2015 > JCAT XE USB > Matrix X SPDIF3 > AyES > Mutec MC3+ > EC Designs PowerDAC B > Topping Pre90 > Wadia a102 > Cardas SE9 cables > John Blue JB3 speakers. All Clear cables Cardas IC, AyES, Beyond & XL

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10 minutes ago, M_audio said:


Thnx i know this post, it is quite informative, but i meant the a post where they explain the new enhancement of the XMOS-interface of the new current U192ETL which should make the source irrelevant.

 

Sorry, there is no post for that, it was just what they have communicated in email exchanges (to several of their customers, I believe). I don't want to quote them and get into technical discussions (I have very limited technical knowledge). The DIY thread gives the basic idea.

 

Let me just stress that I have not listened to these upgraded units. I just think that this is a significant development and that is why I mentioned it.

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I've been listening to the UPL all day (rare I get to be alone in my flat, these days, to do that) and I splurged on my  vintage jazz favorites. I spend the past week also swapping around some cables and adjusting the placement of my equipment, trying to get the most out of my system.

 

With these "non Audiophile" recordings the UPL/Fractal does wonders, and it's an immense source of satisfaction to listen to them without having this typically lifeless digital sound (that I dare say the previous MOS DAC/UPL was not completely exempt of, even if it did pave the way for the current units). What strikes me is how much closer it brings you to understanding the musician's "intentions", and appreciate the quality of the music..

 

As was mentioned it is very possible that vinyl may perform better yet, but this sounds pretty damn good to me :)

 

 

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