ECdesigns

[tapatrick]

18 minutes ago, motberg said:

This is an interesting result - what was the amperage rating for the LT3045's... maybe not enough overhead ?

I tried 1A and 1.5A versions so it's not that as USB 5V for both U192 and DAC is 0.5-0.6A

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, motberg said:

This is an interesting result - what was the amperage rating for the LT3045's... maybe not enough overhead ?

I didn't have this problem before but here is a post describing the LT3045 issue - possibly explaining why I got the results I did which the EC combo is now able to reveal.

 

"When "daisy chaining" LT3045 modules .......  Unless you add some higher capacitance values at their inputs you will also exaggerate HF detail due to the low value tantalum or ceramic capacitors they use for bypassing purposes. ....However, daisy chaining them may lead to excessive HF detail such as an overblown soundstage or a little added sibilance.
…..To achieve a good tonal balance you may also need to use a larger value normal electrolytic capacitor in parallel at it's output, (e.g. 100uF) which will reduce it's maximum speed, but this shouldn't matter much with Analogue Audio."

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/54474-lt3045/?do=findComment&comment=885169
 

[bodiebill]

4 hours ago, tapatrick said:

For DC cables I use long trails of dual cat ethernet cables and PoE but that's a whole other kettle of fish...

There are lots of threads on this especially promoted and pioneered by the late Tubelover2 on US Audiomart. 

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/42959-iso-regen-performance-improvement-cheap/

 

At some point I will maybe take them all out (the back of my rack is a real spaghetti junction!) and try more generic DC cables to see if they still make the difference they originally did in the past. I'm really not sure these lengths are needed now with the EC combo...

 

 

Sorry, I should have asked: how do you terminate with an usb type B connector?

[tapatrick]

24 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

Sorry, I should have asked: how do you terminate with an usb type B connector?

no probs.. In this case yes - as input to both the U192 and Fractal DAC is USB B

[bodiebill]

4 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

no probss.. In this case yes - as input to both the U192 and Fractal DAC is USB B?

 

I am unsure about the wiring when using the USB B connector, i.e. which wires (color codes?) are DC + and GND.

[tapatrick]

15 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

I am unsure about the wiring when using the USB B connector, i.e. which wires (color codes?) are DC + and GND.

Google is your friend...  but always double check with a multi-metre otherwise you risk damaging your equipment - and voiding the warranty.

 

[bodiebill]

Indeed I was just googling it... sorry to be lazy and hasty 🙂

[tapatrick]

46 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

Indeed I was just googling it... sorry to be lazy and hasty 🙂

no problem, happy to help.

[gstew]

8 hours ago, tapatrick said:

How can I put it? The over sound quality including all the above tests I tried is amazing with the EC components added in my system. I have never happier with the experience of listening to (digital) music at home. So the variations between different cables and power inputs sit within that.

 

To be clear the sound with the LT3045s added is very clean - noticeable in that Bass is articulate and clear, it's just that there is a slight hardening of the sound. The very thing that puts me off and makes the EC combo sooooo refreshing.

 

Maybe I didn't run them long enough but I have read that LT3045s add HF noise and can be tamed with added capacitance, possibly this is what I was hearing. The SQ with them is still amazing, with great detail and impact but honestly I'm not looking for more of that any more. I'm now only interested in sound that is natural and easeful. 

 

@tapatrick,

 

An interesting result. On the LT3045s, my experience is that they are about as good as one gets from a single-chip commercial regulator for digital circuit use. I use them a lot.

 

OTOH there are many parameters that determine how well a regulator works into a particular driven circuit, with some of them dependent on the needs and compromises in the driven circuit. I'm not technically competent to discuss them at length, but one is having a low output impedance, which helps the regulator keep the output voltage constant with varying needs by the driven circuit. With LT3045 setups, I will often use multiple paralleled LT3045s on a single board such as those sold by MPAudio.com and LDOVR.com which lowers the output impedance of the regulator setup over a single LT3045 (and the more chips are paralleled, the lower the impedance gets). Comparing those to use of a single LT3045 where the circuits' current needs are well inside of the 500mA max of that chip, I've found using a 3-paralleled set of LT3045 is better sounding than a single one... and a 6-paralleled set is even better.

 

Another important set of factors (IMHO) determine how linearly and gracefully the regulator responds to a fast change in current requirement, which happens constantly in digital circuits and what makes the design of their power networks so critical to sonics. The low output impedance is a factor that helps here, but is not everything... circuit linearity and lack of ringing and overhang are also important here, along with other parameters. While the LT3045s are good in that regard, my experience (limited) and impressions (been following him since 2008 or so) of Paul Hynes regulators and power supplies is that he does a better job than virtually anyone in optimizing for ALL of the different factors in all aspects of the overall systems while balancing them for the best performance. Which is why his generally come out on top, but also is partly why they are expensive. Mercedes cost more than Fords, for good reasons. 

 

I doubt any of the power supply and regulation schemes I commonly use in my DIY builds begin to approach the quality of Paul's gear. AND some of my setups are really very good IMHO. BUT my take (with only VERY limited exposure) is that Paul's beat just about all comers.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Greg in Mississippi

[gstew]

On 7/21/2020 at 6:49 PM, seeteeyou said:

 

While I do have SDTrans384 myself, it's much better to ask @gstew and @pm325 about the I2C / I2S compatibility of ReceiverPi with Raspberry Pi / Allo USBridge Sig

 

https://github.com/iancanada/DocumentDownload/blob/master/ReceiverPi/ReceiverPiUsersManual.pdf

 

 

Here's a picture of SDTrans384, maybe either I2C or I2S could work with ReceiverPi?

 

 

@seeteeyou and @bodiebill,

 

Figuring since I was tagged in here, I should answer.

 

From what I know of ECDesign's current offerings AND knowing the SDTrans384 fairly well, I think it would be challenging to feed the output from one into their current transports (as ECDesigns said, they don't even USE I2S internally) and even get a satisfactory result, much less one that bettered any other inputs. Why?

 

- First, my take on how to best use the SDTrans384 is as a direct I2S or I2S-over-HDMI (PS Audio format) into an appropriate DAC WHILE taking extreme care to ensure you maintain I2S signal integrity along the way. MOST applications of this have been in DIY setups, with some uses where one has an I2S-over-HDMI input on their DAC (like the Terminator and the PS Audio Directstream series). In this world, much of the magic is in the simplicity of the solution.

 

- Second, while the SDTrans384 DOES have a S/PDIF output and it is good, it is also implemented with one of the best chips of the days when the unit was envisioned and designed (2008-2009) and more recent chips ARE better sounding, along with some of the proprietary setups designed to output/input S/PDIF like used on the ECDesigns units.

 

- Third, John Brown (who as I remember is the driving force behind ECDesigns) has been searching for the 'ultimate sound' and using both every and many unique techniques to get there. If a typical digital source uses 30% of the things needed to produce the best sonics and a really good one uses 90% of them, his designs use 150% because he's using some very unique techniques either ahead of common usage or that really are proprietary to his designs. I know I would likely have no way I could dream of improving an ECDesigns unit with any of the techniques I typically use in my DIY builds or equipment mods. I doubt most of us in that realm could 'improve' on their designs. His monster thread on TDA1541 (Phillips 2nd and most revered R2R DAC chip) DACs started in 2006 and while I'm not following it currently, when I did I found something new and novel every few pages. Last I checked he's posting less about what he's currently doing there, but I may be wrong on that. In any case, I know I don't have the chops to get an output into his recent players from an SDTrans384 that would significantly better what is out there today... and as some recent reports have suggested, he may have gotten closer to that illusive 'source independence' than almost anyone else out there as of his latest offerings.

 

Again, my 2 cents!

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

P.S. Two side notes, first, I2S is a format for passing music signals internally inside of a DAC or player. It is not designed for robust long-distance (greater than 100mm or so) transmission. THAT is why one has to take such care with the I2S connection from an SDTrans384 to a DAC... the low-jitter/low-noise 'goodness' of the SDTrans can be easily lost in that short connection. Second is that I2C is a format for passing control and state signals, such as telling the DAC to use a particular filter or sampling format or to report that a particular sampling rate was automatically selected. IT is not used for music signal transmission. AND deep in the SDTrans384 manual, you'll find comments it was never implemented, but was there for future expansion that has never happened.

[tapatrick]

13 hours ago, gstew said:

 

@tapatrick,

 

An interesting result. On the LT3045s, my experience is that they are about as good as one gets from a single-chip commercial regulator for digital circuit use. I use them a lot.

 

OTOH there are many parameters that determine how well a regulator works into a particular driven circuit, with some of them dependent on the needs and compromises in the driven circuit. I'm not technically competent to discuss them at length, but one is having a low output impedance, which helps the regulator keep the output voltage constant with varying needs by the driven circuit. With LT3045 setups, I will often use multiple paralleled LT3045s on a single board such as those sold by MPAudio.com and LDOVR.com which lowers the output impedance of the regulator setup over a single LT3045 (and the more chips are paralleled, the lower the impedance gets). Comparing those to use of a single LT3045 where the circuits' current needs are well inside of the 500mA max of that chip, I've found using a 3-paralleled set of LT3045 is better sounding than a single one... and a 6-paralleled set is even better.

 

Another important set of factors (IMHO) determine how linearly and gracefully the regulator responds to a fast change in current requirement, which happens constantly in digital circuits and what makes the design of their power networks so critical to sonics. The low output impedance is a factor that helps here, but is not everything... circuit linearity and lack of ringing and overhang are also important here, along with other parameters. While the LT3045s are good in that regard, my experience (limited) and impressions (been following him since 2008 or so) of Paul Hynes regulators and power supplies is that he does a better job than virtually anyone in optimizing for ALL of the different factors in all aspects of the overall systems while balancing them for the best performance. Which is why his generally come out on top, but also is partly why they are expensive. Mercedes cost more than Fords, for good reasons. 

 

I doubt any of the power supply and regulation schemes I commonly use in my DIY builds begin to approach the quality of Paul's gear. AND some of my setups are really very good IMHO. BUT my take (with only VERY limited exposure) is that Paul's beat just about all comers.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Greg in Mississippi

Thanks Greg! That does confirm my findings that the PH PSUs are the best sounding and don't need anything after them. I did try Alexey's new 1.5A LT3045 versions of the 5V and although not as bad as the single ones there was no benefit after the SR4. The differences are very minor but to me the EC products can detect this hardening of the SQ. I have had better results on other projects i.e. after modified teradak PSUs for instance, but could never manage your skills and what you are able to do on your projects.

[tapatrick]

13 hours ago, gstew said:

 

@seeteeyou and @bodiebill,

 

Figuring since I was tagged in here, I should answer.

 

From what I know of ECDesign's current offerings AND knowing the SDTrans384 fairly well, I think it would be challenging to feed the output from one into their current transports (as ECDesigns said, they don't even USE I2S internally) and even get a satisfactory result, much less one that bettered any other inputs. Why?

 

- First, my take on how to best use the SDTrans384 is as a direct I2S or I2S-over-HDMI (PS Audio format) into an appropriate DAC WHILE taking extreme care to ensure you maintain I2S signal integrity along the way. MOST applications of this have been in DIY setups, with some uses where one has an I2S-over-HDMI input on their DAC (like the Terminator and the PS Audio Directstream series). In this world, much of the magic is in the simplicity of the solution.

 

- Second, while the SDTrans384 DOES have a S/PDIF output and it is good, it is also implemented with one of the best chips of the days when the unit was envisioned and designed (2008-2009) and more recent chips ARE better sounding, along with some of the proprietary setups designed to output/input S/PDIF like used on the ECDesigns units.

 

- Third, John Brown (who as I remember is the driving force behind ECDesigns) has been searching for the 'ultimate sound' and using both every and many unique techniques to get there. If a typical digital source uses 30% of the things needed to produce the best sonics and a really good one uses 90% of them, his designs use 150% because he's using some very unique techniques either ahead of common usage or that really are proprietary to his designs. I know I would likely have no way I could dream of improving an ECDesigns unit with any of the techniques I typically use in my DIY builds or equipment mods. I doubt most of us in that realm could 'improve' on their designs. His monster thread on TDA1541 (Phillips 2nd and most revered R2R DAC chip) DACs started in 2006 and while I'm not following it currently, when I did I found something new and novel every few pages. Last I checked he's posting less about what he's currently doing there, but I may be wrong on that. In any case, I know I don't have the chops to get an output into his recent players from an SDTrans384 that would significantly better what is out there today... and as some recent reports have suggested, he may have gotten closer to that illusive 'source independence' than almost anyone else out there as of his latest offerings.

 

Again, my 2 cents!

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

P.S. Two side notes, first, I2S is a format for passing music signals internally inside of a DAC or player. It is not designed for robust long-distance (greater than 100mm or so) transmission. THAT is why one has to take such care with the I2S connection from an SDTrans384 to a DAC... the low-jitter/low-noise 'goodness' of the SDTrans can be easily lost in that short connection. Second is that I2C is a format for passing control and state signals, such as telling the DAC to use a particular filter or sampling format or to report that a particular sampling rate was automatically selected. IT is not used for music signal transmission. AND deep in the SDTrans384 manual, you'll find comments it was never implemented, but was there for future expansion that has never happened.

Interesting info Greg. John Brown mentioned by email that he is working on a further and ambitious development of the DAC plus amplification which I hope he will post about soon. Basically all digital to drive efficient speakers.

 

Audio > digital switches -> resistors > speakers.

This will create a transparent signal path which is impossible to obtain with analogue circuits and is virtually free of any distortion or degrading. Looking forward to seeing this develop.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

51 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Interesting info Greg. John Brown mentioned by email that he is working on a further and ambitious development of the DAC plus amplification which I hope he will post about soon. Basically all digital to drive efficient speakers.

 

Audio > digital switches -> resistors > speakers.

This will create a transparent signal path which is impossible to obtain with analogue circuits and is virtually free of any distortion or degrading. Looking forward to seeing this develop.

 

John mentioned it as well on DIYAudio, referring to it as a "revolution in audio". Here I was thinking the current sources+Fractal DAC was in itself a minor revolution, but he has to "up the ante" and give us something further to look forward too 🙂 

 

I gather he seems to believe that going from digital to analog is one of the major stumbling blocks towards high quality audio reproduction today. This seems to suggest that his PowerDAC system (based on the U192 + Fractal DAC) will enable us to obtain the  qualities that are often found in the best vinyl (ie - all analog) systems. His own listening impressions of the completed prototype seem to confirm this. 

 

I understand he will be offering two units: one for speakers, and a smaller unit for headphones.  I also understand that the speaker PowerDAC version will require speakers with a minimum of 90db sensitivity. 

 

 

 

[matthias]

52 minutes ago, hopkins said:

I also understand that the speaker PowerDAC version will require speakers with a minimum of 90db sensitivity. 

 

Looking forward to the PowerDAC, should work with my 99db sensitivity speakers  🙂

 

Matt

[McNulty]

I’m interested in the EC Design Fractal and U192ETL for my headphone rig. My current source for this system is an 11 inch iPad Pro, does anyone know if this will provide enough power for the U192ETL through USB?

[Norton]

2 hours ago, hopkins said:

I also understand that the speaker PowerDAC version will require speakers with a minimum of 90db sensitivity

I’m not clear as to whether you will be able to mix and match the PowerDAC with other speaker brands (otherwise  my Klipsch Cornwalls  would be fine).

I got the idea that the PowerDAC and OBS100 speakers were very much intended as a matched pair, with speakers sans crossovers.

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

33 minutes ago, McNulty said:

I’m interested in the EC Design Fractal and U192ETL for my headphone rig. My current source for this system is an 11 inch iPad Pro, does anyone know if this will provide enough power for the U192ETL through USB?

 

If it can be of some reassurance, I used the U192 with my Samsung tablet (Galaxy Tab S2), connecting it directly with a USB OTG cable, but that will not guarantee it will work with an iPad. You should probably send ECD an email to confirm it will work with an iPad Pro.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Just now, Norton said:

I’m not clear as to whether you will be able to mix and match the PowerDAC with other speaker brands (otherwise  my Klipsch Cornwalls  would be fine).

I got the idea that the PowerDAC and OBS100 speakers were very much intended as a matched pair

 

 

 

No reason your Klipsch would not be a good match

[matthias]

3 hours ago, hopkins said:

 

John mentioned it as well on DIYAudio, referring to it as a "revolution in audio". Here I was thinking the current sources+Fractal DAC was in itself a minor revolution, but he has to "up the ante" and give us something further to look forward too 🙂 

 

I gather he seems to believe that going from digital to analog is one of the major stumbling blocks towards high quality audio reproduction today. This seems to suggest that his PowerDAC system (based on the U192 + Fractal DAC) will enable us to obtain the  qualities that are often found in the best vinyl (ie - all analog) systems. His own listening impressions of the completed prototype seem to confirm this. 

 

I understand he will be offering two units: one for speakers, and a smaller unit for headphones.  I also understand that the speaker PowerDAC version will require speakers with a minimum of 90db sensitivity. 

 

Do you know how ECD do volume control with the PowerDAC?

Thanks

 

Matt

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

I understand the volume control will combine an automated voltage selection (3 levels) and shunt resistor selection. It will be remote controlled. I am not sure my brief exchanges with ECD reflect their latest developments. Perhaps others have had some more information. Regardless, it is best to wait for some more definitive and "official" communication, which should come in a few weeks.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

To get back to the current "set", I would be curious to know if anyone has compared various "streaming" software using the same hardware: Roon, UPNP, LMS... My assumption is that differences in software would also be negligible (once again, provided settings ensure "bit-perfectness").

 

On the topic of "bit perfect" playback, ECD told me they may "offer" a USB key to check bit perfect playback. The USB key would incorporate the same chip used in their previous Mosaic UV DAC, and display the results with LEDs. This would be quite convenient.

[Michael L]

On 7/26/2020 at 6:39 PM, gstew said:

 

 If a typical digital source uses 30% of the things needed to produce the best sonics and a really good one uses 90% of them, his designs use 150% because he's using some very unique techniques either ahead of common usage or that really are proprietary to his designs.

Sorry - I don't understand this, 

 

[matthias]

8 hours ago, hopkins said:

I understand the volume control will combine an automated voltage selection (3 levels) and shunt resistor selection. It will be remote controlled. I am not sure my brief exchanges with ECD reflect their latest developments. Perhaps others have had some more information. Regardless, it is best to wait for some more definitive and "official" communication, which should come in a few weeks.

 

IMO, the best way to have a real lossless VC is to have a variable reference voltage like implemented in the Metrum Acoustics Adagio. 

 

Matt

[Michael L]

12 hours ago, tapatrick said:

 

This will create a transparent signal path which is impossible to obtain with analogue circuits and is virtually free of any distortion or degrading. Looking forward to seeing this develop.

 

You should remember that many people like some distortion providing it's their preferred type. Look at SET amplifiers and at Nelson Pass First Watt designs. 2nd order distortion can give that 'singer in the room' feeling. Strange but true.  

 

 

 

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

48 minutes ago, Michael L said:

 

You should remember that many people like some distortion providing it's their preferred type.

 

Good to know. Different strokes for different folks...