HQ Player

[jdubs]

1 minute ago, Miska said:

 

It is documented in the PDF manual (HQPlayer Desktop) and on the Help-page (HQPlayer Embedded)! :)

 

Oh, duh!!  Thanks! :)

[Miska]

Just pay attention to have proper precision for the coeffs. Those ones are barely 32-bit floating point precision. While the provided EQ functions compute 64-bit floating point precision coefficients. For some applications it can get critical.

 

Anyway, you can use the Plot-function to check that the behavior is at least roughly correct.

 

[Luca72c]

2 hours ago, GMG said:

didn’t really have any issues with windows, maybe I should revert 😂

 

I believe you should. I tried to warn you...

It's very strange that Roon team does not update its HQP communication protocol on linux, but magically it does on windows. Linux is a never ending source of problems and incompatibilities and suggested solutions are often "you can't get that to work, so YOU have to change your system"... Linux becomes the boss, not you anymore. Linux decides what you can or cannot do, you are always forced to undergo 😉

[ted_b]

2 hours ago, Luca72c said:

It's very strange that Roon team does not update its HQP communication protocol on linux, but magically it does on windows.

I have Roon running on Archlinux and HQP on Win10.  Are you saying my Roon is potentially an issue, or is this resolved by having HQP on Windows?

[R1200CL]

6 hours ago, GMG said:

By the way,

Small Green Computer are selling a sonic transporter that claims to run both Roon and HQP - so would the product not work also? I mean it is not a cheapo… the claims that it supports both must have been tested to be working smoothly, and since it is running the same code and protocols of both Roon and HQPlayer tells me that something else is ruining the party for the DIY people…. 

Never had problem with HQplayer embedded on my Sonictransporter i5. (And you get HQplayer at a nice price as well). 

[GMG]

38 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Never had problem with HQplayer embedded on my Sonictransporter i5. (And you get HQplayer at a nice price as well). 

Thank you. 
I am no Linux expert, but this tells me that the problem is in configuration and not in protocols (even if there is a proven protocol issue). Somehow SGC managed to make Roon and HQP play nicely on the same computer running their version of Linux. Kudos to them but I would like to believe that a similar configuration and result is possible also with other linux setups. 
obviously other members experience here is different from my expectation, which is a shame.  

[GMG]

@Miska

I see that since Aug you have split the x64 HQPlayerd images into 2 options x64amd and x64gen

I assume this means that the x64gen versions should be used for Intel based computers?

[Miska]

8 hours ago, Luca72c said:

It's very strange that Roon team does not update its HQP communication protocol on linux, but magically it does on windows.

 

They don't, it is the same implementation on all platforms. Both HQPlayer side, and Roon side.

 

This has nothing to do with Linux or Windows.

 

I have two Roon Cores. One is running on macOS (at home) and another one is running on ILinux (at office). And I don't have Roon and HQPlayer on the same machine anywhere.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, GMG said:

@Miska

I see that since Aug you have split the x64 HQPlayerd images into 2 options x64amd and x64gen

I assume this means that the x64gen versions should be used for Intel based computers?

 

You can use x64amd on any modern CPU with AVX2 support. x64gen works upwards from SSE4.2 support to AVX-512, but performs badly on AMD CPUs.

 

[Luca72c]

7 hours ago, Miska said:

 

They don't, it is the same implementation on all platforms. Both HQPlayer side, and Roon side.

 

This has nothing to do with Linux or Windows.

 

I have two Roon Cores. One is running on macOS (at home) and another one is running on ILinux (at office). And I don't have Roon and HQPlayer on the same machine anywhere.

 

 

Ok, but then how do you explain roon + hqplayer on the same PC are working ok in windows but not in linux (frequent dropdowns reported by many users)? What's the difference?

[Miska]

18 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

Ok, but then how do you explain roon + hqplayer on the same PC are working ok in windows but not in linux (frequent dropdowns reported by many users)? What's the difference?

 

I don't know, I have never run Roon under Windows. First it was on macOS and now on Linux too.

 

Maybe it has something to do with Roon being application written using Microsoft's .NET framework which is "native" on Windows and then on macOS and Linux uses open source alternative called Mono which is being developed by a Microsoft subsidiary. Or maybe it is Roon's resource usage, I don't want it running on the same computer where HQPlayer is because it has unpredictable and uncontrolled background activity (just like Windows and macOS too).

 

Microsoft does use a lot of Linux too. Like running GitHub for example where most of their development is hosted, and majority of nodes on their Azure cloud. And they have the WSL too that is low level Linux emulation for Windows.

 

And if you have ever used Android phone, you've also been using Linux, since Android is built on top of Linux.

 

But on my systems I have never noticed any difference with Roon interoperability whether I'm running HQPlayer on Linux (most of the time, since it's my development platform), macOS or Windows.

 

[Luca72c]

7 minutes ago, Miska said:

Maybe it has something to do with Roon being application written using Microsoft's .NET framework which is "native" on Windows and then on macOS and Linux uses open source alternative called Mono which is being developed by a Microsoft subsidiary. Or maybe it is Roon's resource usage.

 

Interesting, this could be the cause

 

8 minutes ago, Miska said:

And if you have ever used Android phone, you've also been using Linux, since Android is built on top of Linux.

 

Of course, i know, i don't think linux is a bad os, i just think that in current desktop open source distributions it's left too much as a nerd IT geek fixation, not well thought out and optimized for common PC users and widespread common PC systems. When you release a commercial os you cannot demand normal PC users (children, housewives, elders and, most of all, people that needs a fast, stable, comprehensively compatible and easy to use tool for work or hobby without becoming an IT-savy) to learn complex and awkward syntax commands, to adjust their already purchased systems to os needs or to learn ways to do things too different from the common, already widespread ones.

Android is a different thing... It's a standard in itself and well studied to be easy to use on every hardware... Totaly different from linux distributions!

 

24 minutes ago, Miska said:

But on my systems I have never noticed any difference with Roon interoperability whether I'm running HQPlayer on Linux (most of the time, since it's my development platform), macOS or Windows.

 

I understand, but as you said you don't use roon and hqplayer on the same PC... Many others do. And they are not software developers...

The same about hardware compatibility or any other users needs: what is lacking in linux is the freedom to use it with the hardware anyone wants and in the ways anyone wants. It's not normal, to me, to be forced to adjust PC hardware or the way i use my PC to fit the os, it should be the os to be designed and optimized to fit users' hardware and needs. With linux i see too many limits/constraints, what normal PC users get in return is not worth the trade (as i said, i experienced no even slight gain in sound quality or in PC performance using linux instead of windows, whatever audiophile legends repeatedly assert).

Surely linux can have some optimal features for very (very!) advanced users like developers, hackers/geeks or IT pros, but normal PC users usually don't need those features, so for them linux is only a pain, imho. If you just want to listen to some good music, having to face linux complications and incompatibilities is an enormous and useless overkill.

[Miska]

3 hours ago, Luca72c said:

Android is a different thing... It's a standard in itself and well studied to be easy to use on every hardware... Totaly different from linux distributions!

 

No, it is not any different. If you buy a phone with Android pre-installed it works the way it does. Same if you buy a computer with preinstalled Linux. For example Dell and HP are selling computers with Ubuntu preinstalled. HP officially supports Ubuntu Linux on my Z4 workstation.

 

If you want HQPlayer Embedded preinstalled, you can buy a ready made server that runs Linux and HQPlayer Embedded and you don't need to worry about the OS details. You can also buy a server with Linux and HQPlayer Desktop preinstalled.

 

On the other hand, if you want to install Android on a phone yourself and have a bit more control over it, you go for LineageOS and the likes. And then you can feel a bit geeky again, but you have total control of your system. I've used it on a lot of phones where manufacturer stopped providing upgrades to new major Android versions. That way you can stay up to date with full control, even on older hardware.

 

Quote

people that needs a fast, stable, comprehensively compatible and easy to use tool for work or hobby without becoming an IT-savy) to learn complex and awkward syntax commands

 

Nothing forces you to use command line on Ubuntu Desktop, Fedora Workstation and the likes. Windows in my opinion has even more awkward command syntax stuff like "net" utility, although Windows PowerShell is mimicking a lot of Linux/Unix/macOS style stuff.

 

When I build HQPlayer on Linux, macOS or Windows, it is all command line stuff. No mouse point and click involved. All the development is command line and "vim" is the text editor, on all three platforms.

 

Quote

The same about hardware compatibility or any other users needs: what is lacking in linux is the freedom to use it with the hardware anyone wants and in the ways anyone wants. It's not normal, to me, to be forced to adjust PC hardware or the way i use my PC to fit the os,

 

Yeah same here, lot of the hardware I find interesting cannot run Windows at all. But it all can run Linux.

 

Quote

If you just want to listen to some good music, having to face linux complications and incompatibilities is an enormous and useless overkill.

 

For me it feels like that with Windows.

 

[GMG]

Well.

I separated HQPlayer to its own computer running HQPlayer OS. 

Guess what? Got the same  behavior. Repeatedly.  

 

On the single computer setup music stops after 20 minutes of playback. Immediately pressing play will resume the playback for an additional 10min. 
This happens repeatedly - 20min+10min

 

When I separated HQPlayer to its own computer I got the same behavior, repeatedly, but the cycle is 25min + 5min

after the 30min on both setups I have to restart HQPlayer by pressing “apply” in the configuration tab of the web interface to start a new trial session. 

I mentioned this yesterday but I think it might have been overseen: I am on trial with HQPlayer and as I understood HQPlayer embedded trail is limited to 20min and not 30min like the desktop version. 
I can’t see this mentioned on HQPlayer web site or manual but it is clearly stated in Euphony user guide:

“HQPlayer needs a separate license to work without interruption. Without a license file HQPlayer will stop every 20 minutes and you have to make an intervention in UI to start it again and resume playback.” Page 53 https://audiokernel.com/EuphonyGuide.pdf

 

 

I would say that the timings of the music stop and the repetitiveness  is indication that it has something to do with the trial limits between embedded and desktop versions, unless @Miska says this 20min limit on embedded is bogus. If this is in fact the case then it is good news since the fix only costs 250$ 🙂
 

P.S - can’t say I noticed a significant sound quality difference when HQPlayer had its own computer to run on.
P.S 2 - I had contact today with another customized Linux OS distributor (not sure it’s appropriate to mention the name) and he confirmed that he is able to run Roon+HQP on one computer with no issue at all and can support the installation should I wish to purchase the OS (at a very very fair price IMHO) 

[Miska]

1 minute ago, GMG said:

after the 30min on both setups I have to restart HQPlayer by pressing “apply” in the configuration tab of the web interface to start a new trial session. 

 

This won't work even if it initially seems like it would. You need to restart the hqplayerd process for another 30 min. Otherwise one of the many trial timers will kick in sooner than 30 min.

 

1 minute ago, GMG said:

I mentioned this yesterday but I think it might have been overseen: I am on trial with HQPlayer and as I understood HQPlayer embedded trail is limited to 20min and not 30min like the desktop version.

 

Your time limit is 30 minutes counted from start of hqplayerd process. Not from start of playback or anything, but start of the process. And to get another 30 minutes, you need to completely restart the process.

 

 

[GMG]

@Miska I never restarted the process and as you see I am able to get 25min of playback again and again. In any case it seems that this is the actual issue for me. No real problem running both HQP and Roon on 1 computer, just wrong usage of the trial limit. 
I will test again with proper restart of the process.  
I just need to use the following?

systemctl start hqplayerd

Or do I need to use ‘stop’ and then ‘start’?

[Miska]

4 minutes ago, GMG said:

I just need to use the following?

systemctl start hqplayerd

Or do I need to use ‘stop’ and then ‘start’?

 

"stop" and then "start", or just "restart" in single command.

 

Next 30 min limit starts counting from that command.

 

[GMG]

Thanks

just got 30min if uninterrupted playback running HQPlayer and Roon on same computer 🙂

will give it a a couple of days for stability.   

 

[Luca72c]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

No, it is not any different. If you buy a phone with Android pre-installed it works the way it does. Same if you buy a computer with preinstalled Linux. For example Dell and HP are selling computers with Ubuntu preinstalled. HP officially supports Ubuntu Linux on my Z4 workstation.

 

If you want HQPlayer Embedded preinstalled, you can buy a ready made server that runs Linux and HQPlayer Embedded and you don't need to worry about the OS details. You can also buy a server with Linux and HQPlayer Desktop preinstalled.

 

Of course it is very different. I'm talking about a Personal Computer, not a phone. I don't want a ready made Personal Computer with preinstalled linux, specialized on performing a single (or a few) task like a mobile; i want a PC with full functionalities that i can build using the hardware i chose, doing all the incredible things a PC can do, using all the software a PC can run. I can build a top performance full functional PC with less than 1000 USD, i would be mad to spende 3 or even 5 times that amount just to have a server that can only play music with the same (or even lower) performance...

The question is always the same: why? To gain what?

 

2 hours ago, Miska said:

On the other hand, if you want to install Android on a phone yourself and have a bit more control over it, you go for LineageOS and the likes. And then you can feel a bit geeky again, but you have total control of your system. I've used it on a lot of phones where manufacturer stopped providing upgrades to new major Android versions. That way you can stay up to date with full control, even on older hardware.

 

Nothing new to me: never used a smartphone with stock ROM, always used custom ROMS. But comparing the process of installing and configuring a custom ROM on a smartphone to installing and configuring a linux distro on a PC is like comparing writing this post to writing a technical essay about semiconductors. Installing and configuring a custom ROM on a smartphone requires a bunch of minutes, no command line or terminal, no incompatibilities (hardware of a specific model smartphne is always the same), no complications even remotely comparable to installing and configuring properly a linux distro and relative software on a self-build PC.

Installing and configuring a custom ROM can be done by anyone following a dozen lines of simple, mechanical instructions... And usually it works flawlessly straight away with any app in daily work.

 

2 hours ago, Miska said:

Nothing forces you to use command line on Ubuntu Desktop, Fedora Workstation and the likes. Windows in my opinion has even more awkward command syntax stuff like "net" utility, although Windows PowerShell is mimicking a lot of Linux/Unix/macOS style stuff.

 

When I build HQPlayer on Linux, macOS or Windows, it is all command line stuff. No mouse point and click involved. All the development is command line and "vim" is the text editor, on all three platforms.

 

If you want to really solve problems in linux (and you ALWAYS have to), you need command line. Linux GUI is just a basic try to make a real, modern and full functional GUI and it pales in comparison to mac or windows GUIs. You cannot do EVERYTHING in linux GUI without recoursing to a terminal window.

That is very different from windows. You're correct of course, you may even face the need to use command line in windows, but that's really rare and usually just to enter specific commands for specific os functionalities, surely not even to mount an internal drive or to access specific functions on its file system (!). Most common windows users never need to enter powershell at all for years...

Of course your work requires command line and profound knowledge about os functionalities, but you're a software developer, we're PC users. The difference is HUGE. You cannot force us to become software developers, we just want to play music...

 

2 hours ago, Miska said:

Yeah same here, lot of the hardware I find interesting cannot run Windows at all. But it all can run Linux.

 

Again: please remember the difference between you and the rest of us. I'm talking about normal PC users. I don't know what hardware you are talking about, but i think it's not something i could ever use on my PC... But if you're talking about things like SBCs and the like, of course linux is the only way to go, but i wouldn't call them normal/common Personal Computers, they're specific geek/makers systems usually much simpler than full Personal Computers and with limited hardware choices, performance and functionalities. I use your linux NAA software on the BBB in my DAC, it performs its (simple) function very well, but it's totally different than installing, configuring and daily using a full PC (installing and configuring was a pain, too, thanks to linux os - but once done, you can forget about it).

 

2 hours ago, Miska said:

For me it feels like that with Windows.

 

I can understand that easily and i'm not surprised: my suggestion to use windows is clearly not meant to you, of course. I'm talking to hqplayer users coming from windows, that are making their lives a pain and loosing a lot of time in the expectation of better sound or better performance using linux. I really think it's an enormous waste of time and energy, as better sound and better performance are not to be expected, upon my (and other's) experience. So why make your own life so difficult and complicated just to listen to the same music, using the same software and with the same SQ and performance?

And i point out that i have no prejudice in saying this, as i have both linux + hqpembedded and windows + hqpdesktop on my server, both work well (the first after many efforts) and i can choose the one i prefer easily. I have no reason to cheer one or the other, i just test than choose. And i choose windows, without any doubt, thanks to its enormously higher ease of use and maintenance, i simply cannot see a single real and practical advantage in using linux (to be honest, i even prefer windows 10 sound quality over linux one, even if my brain tells me there cannot be any difference - but surely it's a very slight difference, if any)...

[Luca72c]

1 hour ago, GMG said:

P.S - can’t say I noticed a significant sound quality difference when HQPlayer had its own computer to run on.

 

Welcome to hqp users' legends... If your PC is powerful enough to withstand both softwares processes and using quality hardware components, how could sound be significantly different when using 2 PCs for those tasks instead of only one? Roon passes the same digital data to hqp, the latter doing the same digital calculations, it's the NAA that makes a real difference on a separate machine as it's connected to the DAC. Imho, audiophiles tend to largely amplify, in their reports, very small differences they maybe hear, as they firmly believe on them, they spent money and efforts to reach them.

BUT surely on performance front having 2 PCs can maximise the processing power available to hqp, and that's quite a lot ...

[Miska]

12 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

i want a PC with full functionalities that i can build using the hardware i chose

 

Me too, I build my HQPlayer servers. But I don't have any issues with Linux. But I have issues with Windows all the time, even ones that Microsoft tech support is not able to solve after several hours. Their answer is usually just "reinstall Windows", which is non-option, since it takes about two weeks to get everything back to workable state.

 

You know, it wastes enormous amount of my time to fight with such.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

Installing and configuring a custom ROM on a smartphone requires a bunch of minutes, no command line or terminal, no incompatibilities (hardware of a specific model smartphne is always the same), no complications even remotely comparable to installing and configuring properly a linux distro and relative software on a self-build PC.

 

Installing HQPlayer OS on a self-built PC takes less than five minutes. Not much longer with Ubuntu Server or Fedora Minimal.

 

Installing LineageOS on a smartphone may first require you to root your device. And then requires number of steps to hack Google Play Store and bunch of other stuff there that is not included in the base OS.

 

12 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

Linux GUI is just a poor try to make a real, modern and full functional GUI and it pales in comparison to mac or windows GUIs. You cannot do EVERYTHING in linux GUI without recoursing to a terminal window.

 

For example on this laptop, running Linux Mint Cinnamon, I could get along without resorting to command line for normal use.

 

But I prefer command line wherever possible.

 

12 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

surely not even to mount an internal drive or to access specific functions on its file system (!).

 

Local drives are auto-mounted on recent distros, also on HQPlayer OS. Remote ones can be mounted through the GUI.

 

Actually very very similar to how macOS works.

 

12 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

I use your linux NAA software on the BBB in my DAC, it performs its (simple) function very well, but it's totally different than installing, configuring and daily using a full PC (installing and configuring was a pain, too, thanks to linux os - but once done, you can forget about it).

 

HQPlayer OS works the same way, but for HQPlayer itself.

 

12 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

as better sound and better performance are not to be expected, upon my (and other's) experience.

 

Certainly you get better performance on Linux, especially if you use AMD CPUs. And you need Linux if you want to use AMD GPU's, because they don't support anything else than Linux.

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, GMG said:

P.S - can’t say I noticed a significant sound quality difference when HQPlayer had its own computer to run on.

 

There's no sound quality difference. Only difference is reliability under various load conditions. Especially when HQPlayer is pushing your hardware close to 100% loads.

 

[Luca72c]

38 minutes ago, Miska said:

Me too, I build my HQPlayer servers. But I don't have any issues with Linux. But I have issues with Windows all the time, even ones that Microsoft tech support is not able to solve after several hours. Their answer is usually just "reinstall Windows", which is non-option, since it takes about two weeks to get everything back to workable state.

 

You know, it wastes enormous amount of my time to fight with such.

 

Miska, 73% existing PCs are running windows, in respect of just 3% running linux. So you want to say 73% existing PCs all needed 2 weeks to be installed and properly configured all the time and they go ahead with unsolved issues in daily use? Is it a joke?

99,99% custom built windows PCs are installed and configured in less than an hour work and they face no issue for years. I have a PC that i built 15 years ago, i kept updating hardware and software continously and i never had to reinstall windows, just updates, even when going from W7 to W10. We're not talking about Win95 anymore...

 

38 minutes ago, Miska said:

Installing LineageOS on a smartphone may first require you to root your device. And then requires number of steps to hack Google Play Store and bunch of other stuff there that is not included in the base OS.

 

Rooting a smartphone is a 1 minute affair, fast and simple using proper tools. Installing Gapps is another 2 minutes work... You usually find clear infos about the process and ready to use tools.

 

38 minutes ago, Miska said:

Installing HQPlayer OS on a self-built PC takes less than five minutes. Not much longer with Ubuntu Server or Fedora Minimal.

 

Local drives are auto-mounted on recent distros, also on HQPlayer OS. Remote ones can be mounted through the GUI.

 

Actually very very similar to how macOS works.

 

HQPlayer OS works the same way, but for HQPlayer itself.

 

That's not what i experienced. Once i had to give up installing and configuring HQPlayer OS after days of attempts - no way to make it work and play music. Internal NTFS drives could not even be mounted. Network problems at every corner. Instead, everything always used to work ok at first try using windows...

 

38 minutes ago, Miska said:

Certainly you get better performance on Linux, especially if you use AMD CPUs. And you need Linux if you want to use AMD GPU's, because they don't support anything else than Linux.

 

I don't have an AMD CPU, but i guess you're right anyway: in facts i said having an AMD CPU would be the only case i would choose linux.

But using intel CPUs, i made days and days of tests and i couldn't find a single minimal performance difference between hqp on windows and on linux. Same filters play flawlessly, same other filters lead to dropouts. Playing the same files. No difference at all at any time.

[Luca72c]

33 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

There's no sound quality difference. Only difference is reliability under various load conditions. Especially when HQPlayer is pushing your hardware close to 100% loads.

 

 

I'm happy you did clarify this point, at last. Thanks. Please everybody remember these words in future discussions.

About reliability, this discussion started from a case where roon + hqplayer were working together perfectly in windows, but with dropouts in linux (confirmed by many users). That says it all...

N.B.: in the tests i performed on my server between hqp on windows and linux, i often pushed it close to 100% load and i usually do that every time i listen to music with hqp (hires files converted to DSD256, EC modulators, complex filters, etc...). Again, no difference between windows and linux: what works in linux works just the same in windows and vice versa. Using an intel CPU, even overclocked.

[The Computer Audiophile]

@Luca72c Perhaps there’s a cultural or language barrier here, but either way your confrontational tone and phrasing are unwelcome. 
 

Please contribute to this thread in a meaningful way or stop posting in it.