Mutec MC-3+

[SwissBear]

Julian/Swissbear,

 

Thanks for helpful info & basically understood. My only open question remains when reclocking internally via USB PCM, is there a preferred/recommended clock-out rate?

 

Bacon

 

Hi Bacon,

 

In fact you do not have to bother with this clock rate. When you adjust the MC3+ USB to Internal + Reclocking which is the default for reclocking any USB / PCM stream, the MC3+ USB will automatically detect which is the clock rate of the input stream and apply the same clock rate when reclocking. So the output will be at the same clock rate. Very straightforward in fact, you never have to decide about clock rates in this mode.

 

So the only decision you have to make is related to the sampling rate which works best with your DAC. I personally like 24/192 with my equipment, but this is a very personal choice . And you have to organize yourself, either by offline upsampling or by on-line upsampling in JRiver or Aurdivana, to feed the Mutec with the appropriate file.

[baconbrain]

Hi Bacon,

 

In fact you do not have to bother with this clock rate. When you adjust the MC3+ USB to Internal + Reclocking which is the default for reclocking any USB / PCM stream, the MC3+ USB will automatically detect which is the clock rate of the input stream and apply the same clock rate when reclocking. So the output will be at the same clock rate. Very straightforward in fact, you never have to decide about clock rates in this mode.

 

So the only decision you have to make is related to the sampling rate which works best with your DAC. I personally like 24/192 with my equipment, but this is a very personal choice . And you have to organize yourself, either by offline upsampling or by on-line upsampling in JRiver or Aurdivana, to feed the Mutec with the appropriate file.

 

Perfect! Thanks much.

[tboooe]

Guys, I posted a thread about a rubidium clock made in Japan by Cybershaft that is supppsed to be good quality bit also reasonably priced. Here is the thread:

[urlhttp://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/cybershaft-rubidium-clock-low-priced-option-28317/#post533482[/url]

 

Mutec as well other suppliers such as Teac and Esoteric are even listed on the Cybershaft website as compatible. The website is all in Japanese but Google translate seemed to work very well. Curious what others thought. I may get this depending on what the upcoming Mutec Ref10 price will be.

[tboooe]

I am not sure if this is a problem but the output of the Cybershaft rubidium clock is 50ohms and the clock input of the Mutec is 75ohms. Cybershaft website says its not an issue. What does every one else think?

[pjv]

Hi guys! I'm newbie in this forum, and really happy that this kind of forum exists. I guess I have plenty to read from the older posts, however I did not find any FAQ or "newbie questions thread". So, I'll rise my question in this thread:

 

So, the Mutec MC-3 is one product I've been looking for. I have good'ol Sonos player connected to my Ayon DAC. My Ayon buffers and reclocks the sent data. (In my understanding modern DACs does that by default). I'm wondering what's the added value in reclocking the data by Mutec, if my DAC anyways buffers the data stream?

 

br. pjv

[*progear]

I am not sure if this is a problem but the output of the Cybershaft rubidium clock is 50ohms and the clock input of the Mutec is 75ohms. Cybershaft website says its not an issue. What does every one else think?

 

 

Hi!

Basically any 50 Ohm 10M can be just as good as any 75 Ohm 10M. The difference with the Mutec MC3+ USB is that it provides internal termination for 75 Ohm - which can be deactivated. You would have to use an external terminator for a 50 Ohm model. Correct cabling and proper connectors are terribly important!

 

Hope that helps.

[gldgate]

I've never heard a 10M clock so I have no personal opinion on the matter. None-the-less I came across this and thought I'd share (don't shoot the messenger). There are many folks on this thread wiser than me in the area of clocks. What are your thoughts?

 

Pink Paper #002

[One and a half]

Hi guys! I'm newbie in this forum, and really happy that this kind of forum exists. I guess I have plenty to read from the older posts, however I did not find any FAQ or "newbie questions thread". So, I'll rise my question in this thread:

 

So, the Mutec MC-3 is one product I've been looking for. I have good'ol Sonos player connected to my Ayon DAC. My Ayon buffers and reclocks the sent data. (In my understanding modern DACs does that by default). I'm wondering what's the added value in reclocking the data by Mutec, if my DAC anyways buffers the data stream?

 

br. pjv

 

One of the large bonuses in using the MC-3+USB is when the device reclocks the jitter value tanks as described on this page. The graphs show an output of a pro DAT recorder (which is really old and would have not much in the way of great embedded clock S/PDIF data to begin with) and the jitter spikes gone.

 

I don't know how Sonos sends data to the Ayon DAC, please elaborate as depending which input is used there's additional treatment, examples like the USB input.

[gldgate]

I've never heard a 10M clock so I have no personal opinion on the matter. None-the-less I came across this and thought I'd share (don't shoot the messenger). There are many folks on this thread wiser than me in the area of clocks. What are your thoughts?

 

Pink Paper #002

 

 

 

Actually, in scanning the old version of the Ref 10 infosheet Mutec says the following:

 

"Our researches have shown that so-called »atomic clocks« perform their high clock

stability in a time domain not suitable for digital audio. In contrast to that, the

REF10 is based on a complete different clock system, custom-made and strictly

handcrafted in Germany (!), featuring highest possible stability in the time domain

perfectly matching the demanding requirements of digital audio processes and

master clocks. We added the most carefully designed ultra-low noise clock distri-

bution and amplification circuits based on latest high-speed output drivers and the

lowest noise voltage sources. Thus unlike other presently available units, the REF10

fulfills both of the critical requirements for an extraordinary audiophile reference

master clock: lowest possible phase noise for unprecedented audio quality and

highest clock stability for accurate studio synchronization. The MUTEC REF10 will

significantly improve most of the devices connected beyond their currently levels

of sonic performance."

 

So it appears the upcoming Mutec clock may be based on a completely new implementation paradyme.

 

I guess one of the questions I have is whether a M10 clock is worth it (or complete overkill) if you are only reclocking and not using the M10 as a master clock?

[SwissBear]

So it appears the upcoming Mutec clock may be based on a completely new implementation paradyme.

 

I guess one of the questions I have is whether a M10 clock is worth it (or complete overkill) if you are only reclocking and not using the M10 as a master clock?

 

Hi gldgate,

 

Very interesting paper and contribution

 

I would like to add a few questions (and no answer) to this :

1. How sensitive are you (and the persons you are listening to music with) to the benefits of a better reclocking of the music stream ; just to illustrate this, I recently spent the afternoon with one of my best friends who is a musician (Manouche Jazz guitarist) and we carefully listened on my new system to some of the recordings he has spent part of his life gathering. What I noticed was that he was very sensitive to the frequency restitution capabilities of my system and the frequency response of my room, sometimes commenting that there was too much bass or that he found the treble a little bit bright, which led me to some adjustments , but he very rarely commented on the spatial restitution of the system, on the separation of the instruments, which are main benefits we derive from reclocking. In the same way, my girlfriend is very sensitive to the frequency spectrum, but much less to the problems raised by the time decay or phase problems.

 

So one important question is : what are the benefits of reclocking you are most sensitive to and are you expecting more in this field that a more precise clock could bring ?

 

 

2. are the conditions of your listening room favorable to allow you appreciate any further improvement in this field ?

You will notice that most of the people who have made positive comments on the improvements brought by reclocking are pro-audio people (procgear on this forum if I am not mistaken), mainly from the recording industry, who are working in specially treated listening environments.

What made me sensitive to this room acoustics problem is my own experience ; when starting listening to my new system, I was excited by the sound stage brought to me by the Mutec devices but had a real problem with the frequency response from my room. So I started to study this, bought a second hand Trinnov Amethyst, and started to correct the frequency response of my room, just to start noticing that the time decay or phase response of the room was as important, and that the loudspeaker placement, and the passive acoustic characteristics of the room was of huge importance too.

 

As the improvements of a better clock are mainly related to the stability of the clock in the phase domain (low phase noise), the quality of your room and the correct adjustment of your speakers in this field will be most important in order to allow you appreciate any improvement in this field.

 

So finally, everything will come to the answer to the question : "Are you able to notice any improvement which gives you a better experience with this new, still to be announced, clock ?". Whether this improvement is the result of a confirmation bias or not is not the main point. Are you having more fun ?

 

If this answer is positive, you will need one. If not, there is no point. But what is going to be very important IMHO is the capability to buy after a home listening test, ie to select the retailer so that he accepts the return of the clock in case you are not convinced of its benefits in your own environment

 

Just my 2c.

[tboooe]

Hi!

Basically any 50 Ohm 10M can be just as good as any 75 Ohm 10M. The difference with the Mutec MC3+ USB is that it provides internal termination for 75 Ohm - which can be deactivated. You would have to use an external terminator for a 50 Ohm model. Correct cabling and proper connectors are terribly important!

 

Hope that helps.

 

Thank you for the reply. What would deactivating the 750hm termination do?

 

Julian, can you please let us know your thoughts on the impact of using a 50ohm output from an external clock to the 75ohm input of the Mutec? Would this impedance mismatch degrade the incoming clock signal?

[*progear]

What would deactivating the 750hm termination do?

 

Once the internal termination is deactivated one can use any external terminator to do the job. You would also need a BNC Tee connector.

[gldgate]

Hi gldgate,

 

Very interesting paper and contribution

 

I would like to add a few questions (and no answer) to this :

1. How sensitive are you (and the persons you are listening to music with) to the benefits of a better reclocking of the music stream ; just to illustrate this, I recently spent the afternoon with one of my best friends who is a musician (Manouche Jazz guitarist) and we carefully listened on my new system to some of the recordings he has spent part of his life gathering. What I noticed was that he was very sensitive to the frequency restitution capabilities of my system and the frequency response of my room, sometimes commenting that there was too much bass or that he found the treble a little bit bright, which led me to some adjustments , but he very rarely commented on the spatial restitution of the system, on the separation of the instruments, which are main benefits we derive from reclocking. In the same way, my girlfriend is very sensitive to the frequency spectrum, but much less to the problems raised by the time decay or phase problems.

 

So one important question is : what are the benefits of reclocking you are most sensitive to and are you expecting more in this field that a more precise clock could bring ?

 

 

2. are the conditions of your listening room favorable to allow you appreciate any further improvement in this field ?

You will notice that most of the people who have made positive comments on the improvements brought by reclocking are pro-audio people (procgear on this forum if I am not mistaken), mainly from the recording industry, who are working in specially treated listening environments.

What made me sensitive to this room acoustics problem is my own experience ; when starting listening to my new system, I was excited by the sound stage brought to me by the Mutec devices but had a real problem with the frequency response from my room. So I started to study this, bought a second hand Trinnov Amethyst, and started to correct the frequency response of my room, just to start noticing that the time decay or phase response of the room was as important, and that the loudspeaker placement, and the passive acoustic characteristics of the room was of huge importance too.

 

As the improvements of a better clock are mainly related to the stability of the clock in the phase domain (low phase noise), the quality of your room and the correct adjustment of your speakers in this field will be most important in order to allow you appreciate any improvement in this field.

 

So finally, everything will come to the answer to the question : "Are you able to notice any improvement which gives you a better experience with this new, still to be announced, clock ?". Whether this improvement is the result of a confirmation bias or not is not the main point. Are you having more fun ?

 

If this answer is positive, you will need one. If not, there is no point. But what is going to be very important IMHO is the capability to buy after a home listening test, ie to select the retailer so that he accepts the return of the clock in case you are not convinced of its benefits in your own environment

 

Just my 2c.

 

Thank you swissbear for your thoughts. I think you make a very good point regarding listening room. It may be wise for me to spend additional time and energy on this side of things. I may investigate something like Dirac.

[tboooe]

swissbear, your post is way too logical and well thought out. Its much more fun to just throw money blindly at gear that may or may not help us get better sound. LOL! This is afterall an audiophile forum right?

[monteverdi]

I wonder if reclocking mostly benefits computer as a source or improves also better music servers too. I am looking for some servers (no DAC like Lumin U1 Aurenders etc) to improve on my senile Macbook and I am looking for solutions which minimizes on the amount of devices and cables. A general small computer would have more versatility to adopt to internet streaming and other changes than a music server/streamer

[kzhtoo]

Anyone has any info on the break-in time?

[gldgate]

Anyone has any info on the break-in time?

 

I heard a positive audible difference right from the get go. I honestly have not noticed much (if any) of a sonic change over time.

[gldgate]

Does anyone else play around with the buffer settings in the Mutec control panel? I noticed there are 7 settings (minimum latency, low latency, standard, relaxed, reliable, safe, extra safe). I think I hear very subtle differences (but it also could be in my head). Currently using "relaxed".

[Dev]

Does anyone else play around with the buffer settings in the Mutec control panel? I noticed there are 7 settings (minimum latency, low latency, standard, relaxed, reliable, safe, extra safe). I think I hear very subtle differences (but it also could be in my head). Currently using "relaxed".

 

Just curious - does it use Thesycon drivers or Mutec's own recipe ?

[One and a half]

Anyone has any info on the break-in time?

 

Umm, if you wait until all the LEDs are tested on boot up you're good to go, no break in needed.

[One and a half]

Just curious - does it use Thesycon drivers or Mutec's own recipe ?

 

I would be safe to say it's an oem of the Theyscon. The drivers are rock solid for Windows. Advise to switch off anti virus scanners, even Windows 10 bitches about the latency control panel starting. The computer works, no virus.

[gldgate]

Just curious - does it use Thesycon drivers or Mutec's own recipe ?

 

Don't know - good question for Julian to answer.

[SwissBear]

Does anyone else play around with the buffer settings in the Mutec control panel? I noticed there are 7 settings (minimum latency, low latency, standard, relaxed, reliable, safe, extra safe). I think I hear very subtle differences (but it also could be in my head). Currently using "relaxed".

 

Mutec MC-3+ USB - Page 7

[SwissBear]

swissbear, your post is way too logical and well thought out. Its much more fun to just throw money blindly at gear that may or may not help us get better sound. LOL! This is afterall an audiophile forum right?

 

You're absolutely right and welcome to do so. Sorry for questioning this frenzy

[julian.david]

Just curious - does it use Thesycon drivers or Mutec's own recipe ?

 

 

Hi there,

 

Yes, MUTEC does use a custom-modified version of Thesycon driver, because we've found it's one of the best available. We've recently had the guys at JPLAY evaluate the MC-3+USB and they gave us terrific feedback for the driver and the overall sound quality performance. It seems like they were a bit surprised by how much their system benefited from the MC-3+USB ;-)

 

Julian