Mutec MC-3+

[tboooe]

That's the $2K question. Stacked Mutec (another $1K) or the new clock ($3Kish). Really looking forward to the big "unveil" next week with some field reports soon after.

 

The 10M clock in am looking at from cybershaft in Japan is about $1200 and comes with a linear power supply. A friend has it in use with his Esoteric cdp and loves it. I am leaning towards another Mutec though.

[tboooe]

Is anyone willing to let me "rent" their Mutec for 1 day? I want to add another one to my existing Mutec 3+USB to see if I can get the same kind of awesome results as pewter. Of course I will pay for shipping both ways and throw in a rental fee. Pretty please???

 

A long shot I know but its worth asking....

[adamaley]

If you live close to Minnesota, we could work something out / actually meet up. I'd like to hear these results myself. It appears many who are mustacking are using a Mutec 3+ as the second clocker rather than the USB to save on cost, and also because you don't need the USB input for the second clocker as you'd be passing PCM through from the first one. Perhaps, someone with a second stacked 3+ would be more amenable to ship it out since, in my book, no Mutec = no Music! Lol.

[tboooe]

If you live close to Minnesota, we could work something out / actually meet up. I'd like to hear these results myself. It appears many who are mustacking are using a Mutec 3+ as the second clocker rather than the USB to save on cost, and also because you don't need the USB input for the second clocker as you'd be passing PCM through from the first one. Perhaps, someone with a second stacked 3+ would be more amenable to ship it out since, in my book, no Mutec = no Music in! Lol.

 

Does it help that I used to live in Bloomington???

 

I know I am asking a lot because I am in the same boat...no Mutec = crappy music. I am still hopeful that someone will take pity on this poor wannabe audiophile soul.

[adamaley]

Does it help that I used to live in Bloomington???

 

I know I am asking a lot because I am in the same boat...no Mutec = crappy music. I am still hopeful that someone will take pity on this poor wannabe audiophile soul.

 

I think one of the Mustackers should oblige your request. I'll go into withdrawals, and start using some illegal substance by the time it gets back to me. At that point, I'll be breaking bad and will need to face some other kind of music!

[Octagon]

Sorry about the delay but I wanted to check with our engineers on this first. Actually, we recommend leaving the internal termination set to 75 Ohms even when using a 50 Ohms external clock. There may be a slight shift in level, but no slurring of the slopes or any other interference. We've found that using a t-split with additional external terminator is more likely to cause problems due to the additional contact impedance. This also means that we advise you use a 50 ohms cable up until the input of the MC-3+ / MC-3+ USB

Feeding a signal via a 50 ohms cable into a 75 ohm termination will cause reflections at the cable end - this should normally be avoided.

 

Dear all,

 

I received pm from Mutec that they will come back to this topic but ask some patience, they are very busy at the moment because of High End Munich.

 

Take care

Thomas

[julian.david]

Dear all,

 

I received pm from Mutec that they will come back to this topic but ask some patience, they are very busy at the moment because of High End Munich.

 

Take care

Thomas

 

Hi all,

 

yes indeed, we're literally packing up our things for High End in Munich this week. We'll have a nice booth with a playback system consisting of a Windows laptop running either Foobar2000 or Roon, both with the additional help of JPLAY, then out via the MC-3+USB and into a Violectric headphone amplifier with digital input. Should be pretty nice although the show floor will hardly be a good place to enjoy music.

 

But back to topic:

I do have to apologize to Thomas, Ulli, and the rest of you, because my initial statement about how to make a 50 Ohms source work with the MC-3+USB was clearly wrong. I had talked about it with our technical team, but misunderstood some of the developers' statements. My bad!

 

Feeding a signal via a 50 ohms cable into a 75 ohms termination will cause reflections at the cable end - this should normally be avoided.

 

Ulli is indeed correct. Thanks for the Wikipedia link by the way! It is generally not advisable to drive a 75 ohms input stage with a 50 ohms source! Doing so would result in reflections at the cable end as Ulli correctly pointed out. These reflections increase the longer the cable run is. If there is no other possibility to interconnect two devices, it is imperative to keep the cable as short as possible. But when it comes to audiophile applications, such an impedance mismatch should generally avoided. When using the MUTEC MC-3+ or MC-3+USB we recommend switching off the internal termination of the clock's input stage (as described in the manual) and use a BNC tee-adapter in combination with a 50 ohms BNC termination resistor.

 

To conclude: our products will work despite the impedance mismatch when fed by a 50 ohms clock source as long as the cable length is kept to a minimum. But when best audio processing and highest signal quality is the goal (which I know is true for most if not all of you) and only a 50 ohms clock source is available, then switching off the internal termination and adding an external termination is the way to go. I am sorry again for the confusion caused by my earlier statement!

 

Hope this settles the matter to everyone's satisfaction.

 

Thanks and best regards,

Julian

[adamaley]

What, if any, are people's preferences in terms of drivers in JRMC? I've been using the WASAPI driver so far, but kept getting static glitches and dropouts, so I switched to the ASIO driver last night, but haven't had enough time to evaluate it. Any thoughts or suggestions?

[modmix]

Hi Julian,

 

thanks for your kind answer.

Hope you don't mind me adding some more.

 

It is generally not advisable to drive a 75 ohms input stage with a 50 ohms source!

As long as cable and input do have the same impedance, the wave on the cable can't tell that from a inifinte length cable - no refection at this end.

 

I've seen some OCXOs so far. Quite often the signal level at a specific load (usually 50 ohm) is given in the respective specification. That does by no means mean that the OCXO source impedance is 50 ohm - the samples I have do have all source impedances but 50 ohm.

 

But when it comes to audiophile applications, such an impedance mismatch should generally avoided. When using the MUTEC MC-3+ or MC-3+USB we recommend switching off the internal termination of the clock's input stage (as described in the manual) and use a BNC tee-adapter in combination with a 50 ohms BNC termination resistor.

Well, this combination will parallel the termination resistor with the input impedance => the termination impedance will be lower than 50 ohms => reflections ,-(

Crazy people like me void garantee, open the box and replace the termination resistor be a value that gives 50 ohm termination (I've done it because I wanted to use RG400 cable for better shielding etc. - see Crosstalk section in TimePod 5330A Operation and Service manual).

 

hth

Ulli

[One and a half]

What, if any, are people's preferences in terms of drivers in JRMC? I've been using the WASAPI driver so far, but kept getting static glitches and dropouts, so I switched to the ASIO driver last night, but haven't had enough time to evaluate it. Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

I haven't tried WASAPI at all, didn't think of it. If there's an ASIO driver for any DAC, I take this anyday. The MC-3+USB has ASIO drivers as part of the install process for the driver and these should show up in the selection panel in Jriver as Mutec.....

 

As far as buffering is concerned, with HQ Player I get away with 5ms, the default for Jriver is 20ms? Try the lowest setting you can to avoid glitches and drop outs on heavy duty eg. DSD256. Then the rest of the sample rates will work out fine.

[Sam Lord]

I wonder what is the *best* dac that has seen improvement with the Mutec?

 

Does anybody think that a top-notch dac could be built with no clock, no data buffer, and no digital filter? That is, it would get aes or spdif right from a trusted clock like the Mutec and a pre-filtered stream like HQPlayer would provide? I suppose any I2S-input dac could allow this, but those still have local clock noise, correct? Wonder what Miska would say? Thanks.

[athlon]

I had some problem playing DSD with my MC3+USB. I use Audirvana+2.0 on Mac and manually select DoP mode(the automatic detection in A+ failed to recognize Mutec's native DSD capability). However in the end the MC3+ could not generate a sound. It doesn't get DoP input and nothing was illuminated in the "clockin" section. It works so good with PCM streams so far. My DAC does not support DSD so I need MC3+ to do the DSD/PCM conversion. Any help will be appreciated.

[athlon]

I had some problem playing DSD with my MC3+USB. I use Audirvana+2.0 on Mac and manually select DoP mode(the automatic detection in A+ failed to recognize Mutec's native DSD capability). However in the end the MC3+ could not generate a sound. It doesn't get DoP input and nothing was illuminated in the "clockin" section. It works so good with PCM streams so far. My DAC does not support DSD so I need MC3+ to do the DSD/PCM conversion. Any help will be appreciated.

 

Well, I find I just got fooled by A+. FYI, to use the DoP mode in A+, the volume has to be placed at the maximum position. Otherwise there is no sound.

[adamaley]

I haven't tried WASAPI at all, didn't think of it. If there's an ASIO driver for any DAC, I take this anyday. The MC-3+USB has ASIO drivers as part of the install process for the driver and these should show up in the selection panel in Jriver as Mutec.....

 

As far as buffering is concerned, with HQ Player I get away with 5ms, the default for Jriver is 20ms? Try the lowest setting you can to avoid glitches and drop outs on heavy duty eg. DSD256. Then the rest of the sample rates will work out fine.

 

Thanks a lot. This was helpful.

[tboooe]

I just tried DoP over spdif input of the Mutec and it didn't work. Does it only support DoP over usb? I assume DoP over AES isn't supported either?

[juanitox]

is there an I2S out somewhere on the board ? it will be fantastic to go directly from the MUTEC to the I2S input of a dac

[mourip]

I just tried DoP over spdif input of the Mutec and it didn't work. Does it only support DoP over usb? I assume DoP over AES isn't supported either?

 

I do not believe that it supports DOP. It does directly convert DSD to PCM192 and these files sound very good in my system.

 

It only has USB for input so it could not output DOP over USB anyway. Searching the manual it does not even mention DOP.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Hope I am right.

 

:-)

[tboooe]

Thank you @mourip.

 

@julian, any reason why mutec does not support DoP over spdif or AES. After all, wasn't DoP invented in the first place to allow sending of the DSD stream over spdif? Is this something that can be enabled via a firmware upgrade?

[One and a half]

Thank you @mourip.

 

@julian, any reason why mutec does not support DoP over spdif or AES. After all, wasn't DoP invented in the first place to allow sending of the DSD stream over spdif? Is this something that can be enabled via a firmware upgrade?

 

Hi Tboooe,

 

Problem with DoP for AES3 and S/PDIF (coax) is the bandwidth required. DSD64 can be containerised into to a 176.4kHz PCM file with no problems. For DSD128, we need 2 x 176.4 kHz, so 352.8 kHz needed, see the problem?

 

S/PDIF only works to 192 kHz, so higher rates need a higher bandwidth, USB has this. Once you go beyond DSD128, most DACs run out of puff here too for DoP.

[tboooe]

Hi Tboooe,

 

Problem with DoP for AES3 and S/PDIF (coax) is the bandwidth required. DSD64 can be containerised into to a 176.4kHz PCM file with no problems. For DSD128, we need 2 x 176.4 kHz, so 352.8 kHz needed, see the problem?

 

S/PDIF only works to 192 kHz, so higher rates need a higher bandwidth, USB has this. Once you go beyond DSD128, most DACs run out of puff here too for DoP.

 

Understood about the bandwidth constraints. I mainly only have DSD64 anyway.

[skatbelt]

A short review of the MC-3+ USB with a direct comparison to the Berkeley Alpha USB (amongst others): Mutec MC-3+USB DDC Review

[gldgate]

Anyone have a chance to go to the Mutec exhibit in Munich? Any news on either the rubidium clock or firmware update for MC-3+USB?

[julian.david]

Anyone have a chance to go to the Mutec exhibit in Munich? Any news on either the rubidium clock or firmware update for MC-3+USB?

 

Hi there,

We had hoped to have both the firmware update and the new 10 MHz clock ready for the show, but we unfortunately had to delay both for several reasons. With the firmware update, we're really just a couple of weeks away from the release and we'll make sure that you guys learn about it first. One reason for the delay is that we're still tweaking some parameters in the MC-3+USB firmware in order to provide a significant sonic improvement of the re-clocking performance, and we really don't want to rush that. The 10 MHz clock has been completely overhauled compared to earlier product information that has been circulating around here and we now have a no-holds-barred design that we believe is going to be a big step up from everything else out there. We actually had a pre-production prototype running at the exhibit in Munich that we showed to press and dealer contact. Chris Connaker and a couple of other CA users had the chance to see it, and we'll have some sneak preview shots in our exhibit wrap-up on our website soon. A part of why we had to postpone the release is that we want to make sure that the cosmetics of the unit are up to snuff with the sound quality and that we have our distribution and press channels in order for the release. As some of you know, we're still relatively new to the audiophile world and so the show was a good place for us to get all our ducks in a row to have a real impact when we release the 10 MHz clock.

 

That being said, we are in the process of getting a couple of prototypes out to betatesters at the moment and we are currently looking at a release date around September of this year.

 

Thank you all for your patience. It'll be worth it!

 

Julian

[svart-hvitt]

THUNDERBOLT?

 

For longer cable runs, will Mutec consider a Thunderbolt edition of their MC3+USB, i.e. an MC3+TB version?

[julian.david]

THUNDERBOLT?

 

For longer cable runs, will Mutec consider a Thunderbolt edition of their MC3+USB, i.e. an MC3+TB version?

 

 

Hi,

 

As far as I know, the cable length limit for high-speed USB is 5m, whereas the limit for copper TB cables is 3m unless you're running Thunderbolt optical, which is really quite rare.

 

Some literature:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolt_%28interface%29

 

We haven't had a significant number of requests for Thunderbolt support so far and USB gives us good compatibility with a wide range of computers, so at the moment I'm afraid there are no plans for Thunderbolt support at MUTEC.

 

Julian