T+A DAC 200

[jrsub]

7 minutes ago, OE333 said:

 

Playback of a 2-channel SACD over the HDMI connection DOES work.

DAC200 and HA200 are licensed products - so don't worry about that.

Great, hopefully T+A support will get back to me soon regarding the static I get when using 2-channel SACD over HDMI.  

 

[1125FPS]

My system description is HERE.

 

My friend/engineer VL built my server and software system employing HQ Player.  Note that VL said he employs Miska's preferred PCM and DSD settings.  My spouse RD and I finally got to compare PCM vs. DSD.  HQ Player setup for -6 dB for PCM.  

 

First, VL shared his opinion preferring DSD. 

 

I prefer DSD by about 40% margin, RD prefers DSD by "50%" saying PCM sounds "flat."  (Not much detail is needed after "50%" IMO.) 

 

The first item I noticed is PCM dynamics being hugely lacking, sounding flat and compressed.  DSD spatial effects were hugely more convincing with a bigger sound field, instruments sounded more natural.  I have a very hard time imagining anyone preferring PCM in this comparison.  I'd like to say it's impossible but that might be too extreme, esp. for someone unfamiliar w/high end audio.  Surely impossible for anyone accustomed to the best audio systems.  

 

For reference, about 2 years ago, system was much less revealing throughout, we still used HQ Player and did the same comparison PCM vs. DSD > Holo Audio May KTE DAC.  RD and I took confidential written notes over about dozen songs, having to repeat the comparison on some songs.  We made virtually identical choices, preferring PCM about 2/3rds of the music programs. 

 

2 things happened very recently which confirm to me DAC 200's absolutely delicious performance and the all-time highest transparency of my system now: optical isolation was in use, it failed and I since removed it, being redundant with my Intona isolation.  In my diagnostic search for the problem I swapped a generic $5 USB in place of my luxury USB.  When the system was up again later I had forgotten about the generic USB.  I definitely noticed something sounding "drab" while having no direct knowledge of any "problem," which fixed most of the way when I popped the luxury USB back in.

 

But I still thought it was lacking compared to my aural memory of a few days prior.  I looked at HQ Player and saw it was still set for PCM per our test described here.  

 

I'm pretty old and don't mind at all saying my ears are not exactly great.  I still love luxury level high-end but frankly I'm surprised I heard these 2 weaknesses lacking any reference thereof except for a lack of aural satisfaction.  Prior to DAC 200 I think I would not have noticed these 2 items.  

[jrsub]

I also find the DAC 200 to be very transparent and highly resolving and very responsive to cable changes.   For example,  I recently upgraded from Audioquest Earth XLRs to Audioquest Pegasus,  and now to the Audioquest Thunderbirds.   The DAC 200 just pulls more out of the music with each improvement in cables. 

 

[1125FPS]

Not a trick question!  If you can't stand The Carpenters, stop reading.  If any readers own a DAC other than DAC 200 (even DAC 200 owners,) I request we reserve the first 24 hours for readers willing to use only a DAC other than DAC 200.  DAC 200 owners can listen and note their answers, but please don't reply for at least 24 hours.   

 

Subject music program: The Carpenters, The Masquerade (1990 Remix); I streamed Red Book via Tidal.  List the piano type(s), use and number.  Use means the way the instrument is used, it's musical contribution to the arrangement.  Yeah, Richard was a great pop music pianist and arranger; the recording quality is pretty sweet too.  I adored the original vinyl and it isn't within a mile of this Red Book remix streamed in DSD on HQ Player > DAC 200.    

 

The electric bass player on this program is Joe Osborne of the Wrecking Crew.  In an interview Joe said he de-fretted his Fender Jazz Bass and never changed his nylon flat-wound strings, which together made Joe's soft, unique, "rubbery" effect, probably best sampled in the intro to Superstar, esp. the long, gorgeous slide in the 3rd measure before Karen's vocal entrance.  A pick increased Joe's transient attack; plucking would have sounded too dull and lacked pitch sensitivity.           

 

  

[OE333]

On 4/25/2023 at 7:11 PM, jrsub said:

Great, hopefully T+A support will get back to me soon regarding the static I get when using 2-channel SACD over HDMI.  

 

 

I was in the factory today and discussed this with my colleagues from the service dept. We will aquire a UDB-X700 and do some tests. I wll give you further notice, when we know more.

[jrsub]

2 hours ago, OE333 said:

 

I was in the factory today and discussed this with my colleagues from the service dept. We will aquire a UDB-X700 and do some tests. I will give you further notice, when we know more.

That is excellent news.    Thanks!

[IW2CEG]

T+A excellent company, I use a DAC200 and a HA200 with satisfaction, excellent products.
Hello everybody.

[LowOrbit]

I have been listening to the demo DAC200 from AudioBarn in the UK for ten days now, plumbed in to my Benchmark AHB2, feeding Raal SR1a's via the resistor interface or the Abyss 1266 TC's direct. I started with my M1 MacBook Pro feed usb at mainly 1fs, just to get a flavour of the straight character of the dac. 

 

The PCM dac in the DAC200 with the Bezier2 filter has a sonic flavour that I really enjoyed, smooth, harmonically appealing and dynamic. Details retrieval was good too. Compared to the Dave I have been using for the last couple of years, I definitely preferred the presentation of the T+A dac. The Dave has many compelling characteristics but I always felt it lacked soul and everything has a very specific tonal sheen to it, partly alleviated by adding the Scaler, but only really when I used HQPlayer (PCM upsampling) and later PGGB did I really gel with the Chord. And to get there I'd bought Wave Fidelity digital cables, a Salon Eco USB cable, then an Audiowise SRC.DX, built a dc power supply for the Dave and the USB card in my pc and so on.

 

The Dac200 out of the box was sounding way more engaging to my ears from the outset. 

 

After a couple of days I moved to test the DSD process, using HQPlayer with a variety of filters at 512 & 1024fs. I have a bunch of files converted to 64bit doubles in PGGB which I fed via HQplayer (so I could use a convolution filter for the SR1a). The German converter wowed me again, musical, detailed, rich and engaging. I also attached my diy DSC1 DSD decoder project to the analogue inputs on the Dac200 and compared the DSD fed that way. Very close to the DAC200 internal DSD path - as I expected because they are very basically very similar converters.

 

Finally, I felt I understood the nature of the Dac200 and went full PGGB-256 16fs, which was the main drive for choosing this dac - the NOS2 setting should allow the PGGB files to shine. This was the closest comparison to the Dave set up I have been using for since PGGB first came out in 2021. I'd say that the Dave might have an edge in terms of depth of soundstage, but in every other way - timbre, tonal variation, details retrieval, sheer musicality - the T+A is to me preferable. I've been listening every spare minute for ten days or so now and I am very happy with what I'm hearing. 

 

Aside from the sonics, the T+A is exquisitely built, easy to use and I get the impression of great back up and support from the manufacturer (not least the contributions of OE333 here). (A special mention to the remote - much nicer than the cheap tat provided with the last dac to sit on my shelf...)

 

I am sure my file transport can be improved and from the numerous experiments I have carried out feeding files via different paths (Mac, Linux PC with dedicated USB card and separate power, RaspberryPi4 running Jussi's NAA image, USB cable, optical from a DAP, AES via SRC.DX) it was easy to hear differences, so I believe there is more goodness to come. 

 

In truth I'd be happy with the DSD converter, or the PCM converter in the Dac200, so to have both is just great. 

 

[jeti]

Has anyone tried the headphone output of dac 200? Would love to know how it works with various types of headphones.

[jeti]

Also how different power cords impact the SQ of dac200, cheers!

[Nkam]

32 minutes ago, jeti said:

Also how different power cords impact the SQ of dac200, cheers!

i seriously doubt a power chord would make a difference.  
you surely wouldn’t want it to as that would indicate a less than well designed power supply by T+A which 100% doubt . 

 

 

[luisma]

59 minutes ago, jeti said:

tried the headphone output of dac 200?

Just with HD560S and 1570C which are fairly easy to drive and it supplies plenty of power, at max DAC volume my hqplayer is running at -16 IIRC and that's pretty loud, I can test exactly tomorrow and report the exact level.

About the power cord IMO I don't think a well designed DAC like this will improve any more but that's just my personal opinion.

 

[SPAZ]

I've ordered the DAC200 and now the hard part of waiting the 4 to 6 week delivery time to get to my dealer.

[Allan F]

On 5/8/2023 at 3:00 PM, SPAZ said:

I've ordered the DAC200 and now the hard part of waiting the 4 to 6 week delivery time to get to my dealer.

 

Patience is a virtue and will be rewarded when you hear your new DAC 200.

[Aspirant Audiophile]

This post is not meant to undermine T&A or otherwise be a troll, but I wanted to add my experience:

 

--I auditioned the T&A 200 DAC earlier this week, at the hifi vendor's listening room. I brought all my components (SST amp, Stax headphones, Mogami XLR cables, Node streamer, my personal laptop, and RME ADI DAC). I had read the T&A 200 DAC review here on Audiophilestyle.com, and I'd heard good things from friends who are also interested in this DAC. I went to my local vendor ready to make a purchase, or at least take home for a longer in-home demo.

 

--With one exception (see below), every comparison I made between T&A and RME left me surprised by no noticeable difference between the two DACs. This was blind A/B testing--the shop owner changed cables and sources (laptop/ethernet versus Node/ethernet, Node versus T&A's own 200 streamer, RME versus T&A 200 DAC, mixes of all the above) while I listened. On multiple occasions, I forgot that I was listening with RME and thought, "This sounds so good, surely it's the T&A..." only to realize I was listening to the DAC I already own. The shop owner was very surprised, though he mentioned that the differences are likely more noticeable on a stereo system rather than headphones. But I have a Stax x9000 and a very good privately-built amp, and I would expect to notice differences if they were there.

 

--The one exception was T&A's streamer connected to T&A's DAC--there was a huge change in my perception. Clearly, more headroom, more separation, etc. It reminded me of the first time I streamed with a Lumin mini-U2. BUT! I was able to quickly identify and adjust variables so that the Lumin wound up sounding identical to my Node. And, even the shop owner said there must be something to do with the "tuning" or optimization of the two T&A components, and that there's no way T&A's streamer could have been responsible for the improvement I heard. My guess is that with enough EQ tinkering on the RME, I can get a similar sound. The vendor said that, because I wasn't "blown away" in the shop, there's no way I'd be blown away at home. We shook hands and I thanked him for the free coffee.

 

I'm at a loss, because I was psychologically prepared to hear a difference, which usually leads to plenty of confirmation bias. Instead I left the vendor thinking that either I have bad (or inexpensive?) ears, or T&A solves problems that don't exist...at least, not with the RME.

 

Happy to be corrected by any/all forum members :)

[jrsub]

14 minutes ago, Aspirant Audiophile said:

This post is not meant to undermine T&A or otherwise be a troll, but I wanted to add my experience:

 

--I auditioned the T&A 200 DAC earlier this week, at the hifi vendor's listening room. I brought all my components (SST amp, Stax headphones, Mogami XLR cables, Node streamer, my personal laptop, and RME ADI DAC). I had read the T&A 200 DAC review here on Audiophilestyle.com, and I'd heard good things from friends who are also interested in this DAC. I went to my local vendor ready to make a purchase, or at least take home for a longer in-home demo.

 

--With one exception (see below), every comparison I made between T&A and RME left me surprised by no noticeable difference between the two DACs. This was blind A/B testing--the shop owner changed cables and sources (laptop/ethernet versus Node/ethernet, Node versus T&A's own 200 streamer, RME versus T&A 200 DAC, mixes of all the above) while I listened. On multiple occasions, I forgot that I was listening with RME and thought, "This sounds so good, surely it's the T&A..." only to realize I was listening to the DAC I already own. The shop owner was very surprised, though he mentioned that the differences are likely more noticeable on a stereo system rather than headphones. But I have a Stax x9000 and a very good privately-built amp, and I would expect to notice differences if they were there.

 

--The one exception was T&A's streamer connected to T&A's DAC--there was a huge change in my perception. Clearly, more headroom, more separation, etc. It reminded me of the first time I streamed with a Lumin mini-U2. BUT! I was able to quickly identify and adjust variables so that the Lumin wound up sounding identical to my Node. And, even the shop owner said there must be something to do with the "tuning" or optimization of the two T&A components, and that there's no way T&A's streamer could have been responsible for the improvement I heard. My guess is that with enough EQ tinkering on the RME, I can get a similar sound. The vendor said that, because I wasn't "blown away" in the shop, there's no way I'd be blown away at home. We shook hands and I thanked him for the free coffee.

 

I'm at a loss, because I was psychologically prepared to hear a difference, which usually leads to plenty of confirmation bias. Instead I left the vendor thinking that either I have bad (or inexpensive?) ears, or T&A solves problems that don't exist...at least, not with the RME.

 

Happy to be corrected by any/all forum members :)

This is why you should always listen to equipment in your own system before buying.    While at the dealers it would have been interesting to try both DACs in their best system to see if you hear any difference.    It could be that  other areas of your system are hindering your ability to hear any difference, or as you mentioned maybe you don't have those golden ears :)   That being said, there are others here including me who do hear obvious differences between the DAC 200 and other DACs.   

[Aspirant Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, jrsub said:

This is why you should always listen to equipment in your own system before buying.    While at the dealers it would have been interesting to try both DACs in their best system to see if you hear any difference.   

I completely agree. I brought my entire system to the listening session, and the vendor alternated between my equipment and some of his own. As I noted, the only difference was when the TA streamer and TA DAC were used in conjunction. All other combinations were the same.

9 minutes ago, jrsub said:

It could be that  other areas of your system are hindering your ability to hear any difference,

This is certainly possible, but I'm not sure what else could be added to my system...and anyway, I would expect the vendor to remark on this. The only thing he could think of is my cables, but we tried his as well, and no difference.

 

9 minutes ago, jrsub said:

or as you mentioned maybe you don't have those golden ears :)   That being said, there are others here including me who do hear obvious differences between the DAC 200 and other DACs.   

I'm just curious, but have you compared DAC 200 to RME? Separate question, do you hear differences in stereo setups or also headphones? I used headphones only.

[jrsub]

I have not directly compared the DAC 200 to the RME.  I prefer using speakers for a component audition because you get a better feel for things like soundstage width and bass response.   It is really a different experience.   Of course if you normally just use headphones that is how you should audition.    I would compare the DACs using a decent set of speakers (ideally your own) and also as mentioned just have the dealer hook them up to one of their best systems to see if you hear a difference.  If you don't you know that the RME DAC is all that you need and you saved yourself a few bills.  

 

 

[Aspirant Audiophile]

1 minute ago, jrsub said:

I have not directly compared the DAC 200 to the RME.  I prefer using speakers for a component audition because you get a better feel for things like soundstage width and bass response.   It is really a different experience.   Of course if you normally just use headphones that is how you should audition.    I would compare the DACs using a decent set of speakers (ideally your own) and also as mentioned just have the dealer hook them up to one of their best systems to see if you hear a difference.  If you don't you know that the RME DAC is all that you need and you saved yourself a few bills.  

 

 

Many thanks--yes, I bought a pair of KEF actives last year and have never second-guessed that decision. Maybe if I lived on a ranch, I'd want "more" to my stereo, but I think I saved myself a lot of anxiety, as well as angry letters from neighbours, by getting a "just fine" stereo that is essentially plug-and-play.

 

My headphone setup has been a different story...and it appears that this story is coming to a close (my wallet hopes, while my ears are slightly disappointed).

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, Aspirant Audiophile said:

This post is not meant to undermine T&A or otherwise be a troll, but I wanted to add my experience:

 

--I auditioned the T&A 200 DAC earlier this week, at the hifi vendor's listening room. I brought all my components (SST amp, Stax headphones, Mogami XLR cables, Node streamer, my personal laptop, and RME ADI DAC). I had read the T&A 200 DAC review here on Audiophilestyle.com, and I'd heard good things from friends who are also interested in this DAC. I went to my local vendor ready to make a purchase, or at least take home for a longer in-home demo.

 

--With one exception (see below), every comparison I made between T&A and RME left me surprised by no noticeable difference between the two DACs. This was blind A/B testing--the shop owner changed cables and sources (laptop/ethernet versus Node/ethernet, Node versus T&A's own 200 streamer, RME versus T&A 200 DAC, mixes of all the above) while I listened. On multiple occasions, I forgot that I was listening with RME and thought, "This sounds so good, surely it's the T&A..." only to realize I was listening to the DAC I already own. The shop owner was very surprised, though he mentioned that the differences are likely more noticeable on a stereo system rather than headphones. But I have a Stax x9000 and a very good privately-built amp, and I would expect to notice differences if they were there.

 

--The one exception was T&A's streamer connected to T&A's DAC--there was a huge change in my perception. Clearly, more headroom, more separation, etc. It reminded me of the first time I streamed with a Lumin mini-U2. BUT! I was able to quickly identify and adjust variables so that the Lumin wound up sounding identical to my Node. And, even the shop owner said there must be something to do with the "tuning" or optimization of the two T&A components, and that there's no way T&A's streamer could have been responsible for the improvement I heard. My guess is that with enough EQ tinkering on the RME, I can get a similar sound. The vendor said that, because I wasn't "blown away" in the shop, there's no way I'd be blown away at home. We shook hands and I thanked him for the free coffee.

 

I'm at a loss, because I was psychologically prepared to hear a difference, which usually leads to plenty of confirmation bias. Instead I left the vendor thinking that either I have bad (or inexpensive?) ears, or T&A solves problems that don't exist...at least, not with the RME.

 

Happy to be corrected by any/all forum members :)

Thanks for sharing your experience. Nothing wrong with saving yourself some money :~)

[Aspirant Audiophile]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Thanks for sharing your experience. Nothing wrong with saving yourself some money :~)

Completely agree, and I look forward to more dinners out ;)

 

Now though I'm very curious about the differences between the T&A 8 DAC and the 200 edition.

 

Is it correct that no one on this forum has compared the two DACs? For me this is surprising, as surely there are T&A 8 DAC owners looking for an upgrade.

[Allan F]

9 hours ago, Aspirant Audiophile said:

Is it correct that no one on this forum has compared the two DACs? For me this is surprising, as surely there are T&A 8 DAC owners looking for an upgrade.

 

I am not aware of any detailed comparison between the two DACs but many, including @The Computer Audiophile, @Miska and myself, have posted that the DAC 200 is a definite upgrade from the DAC 8 DSD.

[Nkam]

12 hours ago, Aspirant Audiophile said:

This post is not meant to undermine T&A or otherwise be a troll, but I wanted to add my experience:

 

--I auditioned the T&A 200 DAC earlier this week, at the hifi vendor's listening room. I brought all my components (SST amp, Stax headphones, Mogami XLR cables, Node streamer, my personal laptop, and RME ADI DAC). I had read the T&A 200 DAC review here on Audiophilestyle.com, and I'd heard good things from friends who are also interested in this DAC. I went to my local vendor ready to make a purchase, or at least take home for a longer in-home demo.

 

--With one exception (see below), every comparison I made between T&A and RME left me surprised by no noticeable difference between the two DACs. This was blind A/B testing--the shop owner changed cables and sources (laptop/ethernet versus Node/ethernet, Node versus T&A's own 200 streamer, RME versus T&A 200 DAC, mixes of all the above) while I listened. On multiple occasions, I forgot that I was listening with RME and thought, "This sounds so good, surely it's the T&A..." only to realize I was listening to the DAC I already own. The shop owner was very surprised, though he mentioned that the differences are likely more noticeable on a stereo system rather than headphones. But I have a Stax x9000 and a very good privately-built amp, and I would expect to notice differences if they were there.

 

--The one exception was T&A's streamer connected to T&A's DAC--there was a huge change in my perception. Clearly, more headroom, more separation, etc. It reminded me of the first time I streamed with a Lumin mini-U2. BUT! I was able to quickly identify and adjust variables so that the Lumin wound up sounding identical to my Node. And, even the shop owner said there must be something to do with the "tuning" or optimization of the two T&A components, and that there's no way T&A's streamer could have been responsible for the improvement I heard. My guess is that with enough EQ tinkering on the RME, I can get a similar sound. The vendor said that, because I wasn't "blown away" in the shop, there's no way I'd be blown away at home. We shook hands and I thanked him for the free coffee.

 

I'm at a loss, because I was psychologically prepared to hear a difference, which usually leads to plenty of confirmation bias. Instead I left the vendor thinking that either I have bad (or inexpensive?) ears, or T&A solves problems that don't exist...at least, not with the RME.

 

Happy to be corrected by any/all forum members :)

 

yeah good for you man. 
 

we hear what we like.  Period. 
some may think you are crazy for your statement , but that doesn’t matter.  
in the end it’s only YOU that needs to be satisfied. 
and that’s coming from someone who doesn’t like the RME sound.  Go figure. 
 

but if you like it. That’s all that matters.  
 

heck all our ears are shaped differently even. 
 

get what YOU want and don’t let anyone tell you any different.  
 

congrats!

[Allan F]

12 hours ago, Nkam said:

but if you like it. That’s all that matters.  
heck all our ears are shaped differently even. 
get what YOU want and don’t let anyone tell you any different.  

 

All valid assertions! But, at the same time, not to ignore the potential difference between opinion and fact.

[Aspirant Audiophile]

15 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

I am not aware of any detailed comparison between the two DACs but many, including @The Computer Audiophile, @Miska and myself, have posted that the DAC 200 is a definite upgrade from the DAC 8 DSD.

Thank you for this response, I really appreciate it :)

 

So far I have only found a mention of the 8 DAC in audiophilestyle's original review (and a great, well-written review by the forum founder, by the way!) of the 200 DAC. That mention was to note that no direct comparison had been made, and the opinion of the 200 DAC being an upgrade was only based on memory.

 

Probably I can't hope too much for detailed analysis of how any of these higher-end DACs pair with Stax headphones, especially ones like the 200 with a serious dedicated headphone jack. But I keep hoping I'll come across folks who hear (or at least have experience trying to hear) an upgrade...but via headphones, not speakers. 

 

Can you please direct me to the posts you mention which compare these two DACs? Are the comparisons in this thread or another one I should look at?