T+A DAC 200

[OE333]

On 4/14/2023 at 12:55 AM, luisma said:

Hi, no rush or urgent but did you have a chance to look into the RS233 firmware update? Thank you, that will be awesome if it can be done that way.

 

The official update tool should have been available in the T+A webshopby now, but it seems T+A is a bit slow in getting this tool into their shop. But I think it will be available soon.

 

For all who consider doing a firmware update using DIY hardware, I have prepared a short instruction attached to this post.

This is only a pre-release, just to give an impression how it works. I will add some more details and information in the coming days.

 

I will release the update tool PC software and the final instructions next week.

 

DIY_TA_UpdateTool.pdf

[Nkam]

11 hours ago, OE333 said:

 

The official update tool should have been available in the T+A webshopby now, but it seems T+A is a bit slow in getting this tool into their shop. But I think it will be available soon.

 

For all who consider doing a firmware update using DIY hardware, I have prepared a short instruction attached to this post.

This is only a pre-release, just to give an impression how it works. I will add some more details and information in the coming days.

 

I will release the update tool PC software and the final instructions next week.

 

DIY_TA_UpdateTool.pdf 660.94 kB · 15 downloads

 

forgive my ignorance if you already explained this.  
so you are saying that the second stage of PCM in the T+A also includes the noise shaper of something like HQplayer? 
Or it just does the first stage which is the Nyquist filter?

 

again thank you in advance. 
 

also, is the analog output stage always in Class A ?

 

 

( I’m trying to read up all I can about how ΔΣ and other DACs work.  ) 

[bogi]

12 hours ago, Nkam said:

second stage of PCM in the T+A also includes the noise shaper of something like HQplayer?

Noise shaping is result of delta sigma modulation. The term 'noise shaper' means use of delta sigma modulator. No noise shaping without delta sigma modulator. Noise shaping = delta sigma modulation.

Short answer:  With PCM input T+A DAC (like all delta sigma DACs) performs oversampling and delta sigma modulation (noise shaping) - similar process like what si done in HQPlayer when you do PCM to DSD processing.

Longer answer:

With PCM input delta sigma modulators contained in PCM1795 DAC chips are used - the picture I posted on previous page. You see here oversampling module in front of delta sigma modulator.
With DSD input in direct DSD mode delta sigma modulation (noise shaping) of PCM to DSD software converter (for example HQPlayer) is used and the modulator in DAC chip is skipped.

Note about terminology - maybe it confused you:
In this post Miska bound together 2nd oversampling stage (that zero order hold thing) and delta sigma modulator as reaction to formulation used in quoted OE333's post. Miska considered that 2nd oversampling stage to be part of 'delta sigma stage' - for the purpose of that post. But it is only matter of terminology used for a particular case. In previous discussions Miska many times mentioned two oversampling stages in front of delta sigma modulation - that's what I did in my previous posts too.

[mikel]

I know that measurements is key validate the quality of a good DAC. Listening is more subjective.
I am considering to audition the T&A DAC200.

I currently own the RME ADI-2 FS with the AKM-Chip.

Super happy with it but still curious what the DAC200 can bring. As my hardware can only upsample to DSD256, I wonder if it is worth considering the DAC200 in the first place.

Any experience here from former RME-owners?

Anyone ever made measurements side by side with DSD256 of the ADI-2 vs the DAC200?

What is the subjective listening comparison/impressions?

Thanks,

[Miska]

38 minutes ago, mikel said:

Any experience here from former RME-owners?

Anyone ever made measurements side by side with DSD256 of the ADI-2 vs the DAC200?

 

I have two ADI-2 Pro's, DAC 200, HA 200, etc.

 

At DSD256 the technical performance is similar. I have now posted some measurements for both at DSD256.

 

[mikel]

@MiskaNot sure where to find the posted measurements.

[LowOrbit]

Having sold my Dave a few weeks ago, following a couple of comparisons with other options and forming the view that the Chord wasn't really earning its keep with all my music PGGB'd I ordered a T+A Dac200 today.

 

It's on a "2-3 week" leadtime but the dealer is going to ship me his demo unit to cover the interim which is great service. A shout out to Jack@TheAudiobarn in the UK.

 

Hopefully it'll be here tomorrow. Apart from the great reviews this dac has garnered from disparate sources - and not least from Chris and Rajiv here - T+A seem to be the kind of business I am happy to spend my money with. 

[austinpop]

6 hours ago, LowOrbit said:

Having sold my Dave a few weeks ago, following a couple of comparisons with other options and forming the view that the Chord wasn't really earning its keep with all my music PGGB'd I ordered a T+A Dac200 today.

 

I look forward to your impressions, both with native and PGGBed content. I think you'll be pleased with the DAC-200. I liked what I heard at Chris's house.

[OE333]

On 4/16/2023 at 2:15 PM, OE333 said:

 

I will release the update tool PC software and the final instructions next week.

 

 

Well, as promised:

I have uploaded the Update Tool, instructions and the current firmware for DAC200 and HA200 to Github.

 

https://github.com/OE333/DAC200-HA200-Update-Tool

 

Have fun.

 

-OE-

 

[jrsub]

A couple of questions regarding the use of the DAC 200 HDMI inputs. 

 

I have connected my Sony Blu-ray player (UDB-X700) to the HDMI inputs on the DAC 200 and use the DSD output option on the Sony player.    When I play an SACD disk  the DAC  200 display shows "DSD 64" and I get sound.  The sound quality would be very good except there is a very noticeable background  static.   Is this a valid configuration for the  DAC 200 as far as playing SACD disks?  If so what could be causing the background static?  

 

And second, when using the DAC 200 to play a Blu-ray movie through the HDMI inputs I cannot get a 2 channel down mix.     I have the Sony player set to PCM output  and have chosen stereo as the down mix option.   However, when I play a movie the DAC 200 displays "PCM Multi CH".  It basically is playing sound for just the left and right  channels and I have no center image vocals - which makes sense.    What I can't figure out is that I had another DAC 200 prior to this one where I had no problem playing movies and getting great 2 channel sound through the HDMI input.   It just seemed to work without doing anything special.  The only thing I can think of is if the movies I played on the first DAC 200 had a  2 channel  audio track option whereas the movies I am having trouble with now don't.   But, I don't recall ever to have to select the 2 channel option to get it to work if that was the case.   Can the DAC 200 only play a Blu-Ray movie if the movie has  2 channel audio as an audio option?   

 

Any insight 2 these questions would be appreciated. 

 

[OE333]

Hi @jrsub,

yes your setup for DSD should work fine. Just for a test I would recommend to disconnect all other sources, just have the Sony player connected and try to play a SACD. If the static noise is gone, connect one source device after the other and find out when the static noise begins.

If you have noise with only tne Sony connected, it might be best to contact the T+A sevice dept ([email protected]).

 

Multichannel:

Obviously the Sony player outputs a multichannel audio stream on its HDMI out, not a 2-channel downmix. Such a multichannel stream can not be decoded and downmixed by the DAC as it only accepts 2-channel stereo streams. Try to setup the HDMI output of your player to output a 2-ch. downmix, then it should work.

If this is not possible, you could perhaps use the S/P-DIF output of the player - this should normally be capable to output a 2-ch. stereo stream.

[1125FPS]

My system is dual use, 2-ch music + front-projector > 92" retractable perforated screen.  Phantom Center ch for HT: our main speaker includes a proprietary discrete high-passed wide range horn for spatial effects, with the best center fill I have heard, better than any HT center ch.

 

The HT receiver is an early-HDMI era Pioneer connected as follows: Pioneer Front L/R pre-out RCA > 2-ch preamp HT bypass > 2-ch amp > L/R main speakers.  Pioneer menu setup: no subs/subwoofer sent to Large Front L/R, phantom center ch.  The Pioneer volume controls HT level.  The Pioneer's rear and side surround speaker outputs > 4 in-wall surrounds.    

 

Will this work instead?  Pioneer HDMI output > DAC 200 HDMI input, XLR output L/R > set preamp level @ pre-determined HT level > main amp > L/R speakers. 

 

The Pioneer volume has to vary level on the HDMI output and the Pioneer's 4 surround speaker binding posts; I suspect volume is always only fixed on all HDMI outputs, but don't really know.  Said another way, I suspect volume is always post-HDMI cable and never pre-HDMI cable.   

[OE333]

1 hour ago, 1125FPS said:

I suspect volume is always only fixed on all HDMI outputs, but don't really know.  Said another way, I suspect volume is always post-HDMI cable and never pre-HDMI cable.   

 

Yes, you are right, volume control is done post-HDMI cable i.e. after surround decoding (which is done in your Pioneer receiver).

 

What might work is using a setup with separate connections to Pioneer (HDMI) and DAC200 (SP-DIF or TOSLINK):

For HT - volume control thru Pioneer Receiver, DAC200 set to constant "HT" volume setting:

BluRay_Player > HDMI > Pioneer -> Front L/R pre-out RCA > DAC200 analog in > 2-ch amp > L/R main speakers.

                                                    -> rear and side surround speaker outputs > 4 in-wall surrounds.

 

For Stereo music: (volume control thru DAC200 - Pioneer receiver can be switched OFF):

BluRay_Player > DAC200 digital in (SP-DIF) > 2-ch amp > L/R main speakers.

                                                        

 

Please note:

For HT use, the DAC200 needs to be set to a constant HT" volume setting which should always be used for HT.

 

 

 

[jrsub]

1 hour ago, OE333 said:

Hi @jrsub,

yes your setup for DSD should work fine. Just for a test I would recommend to disconnect all other sources, just have the Sony player connected and try to play a SACD. If the static noise is gone, connect one source device after the other and find out when the static noise begins.

If you have noise with only tne Sony connected, it might be best to contact the T+A sevice dept ([email protected]).

 

Multichannel:

Obviously the Sony player outputs a multichannel audio stream on its HDMI out, not a 2-channel downmix. Such a multichannel stream can not be decoded and downmixed by the DAC as it only accepts 2-channel stereo streams. Try to setup the HDMI output of your player to output a 2-ch. downmix, then it should work.

If this is not possible, you could perhaps use the S/P-DIF output of the player - this should normally be capable to output a 2-ch. stereo stream.

 

Glad to know that playing SACDs should work.  The Sony is my only source besides the DAC 200, but I did have a S/P-DIF connection from the Sony player to the DAC 200 since I was having trouble with getting a two channel down mix using HDMI.   I will try disconnecting the S/P-DIF and using a different HDMI cable.   Also, I will try some different power options. 

 

I must  not be seeing the option on the Sony to output a two channel only stream.   Although I have the down mix set to stereo on the player,  the DAC 200 still is receiving a multi channel signal - the DAC 200 display tells me so.   More experimenting is required.   

 

The S/P-DIF connection works fine for playing movies in two channel and is definitely an option if I can't get the HDMI connection sorted out.

 

I appreciate the help. 

 

 

[OE333]

22 minutes ago, jrsub said:

 

I must  not be seeing the option on the Sony to output a two channel only stream.   Although I have the down mix set to stereo on the player,  the DAC 200 still is receiving a multi channel signal - the DAC 200 display tells me so.   More experimenting is required.  

 

 

Have you tried the following audio settings:

[Digital Audio Output] -> PCM

[BD Secondary Audio] -> On

 

 

 

[jrsub]

7 minutes ago, OE333 said:

 

Have you tried the following audio settings:

[Digital Audio Output] -> PCM

[BD Secondary Audio] -> On

 

 

 

Yes, and the DAC 200 says on the display that it is getting, "PCM Multi CH".    I am hearing what I believe to be the left and right front channels of the multi channel mix. 

[jrsub]

17 minutes ago, jrsub said:

Yes, and the DAC 200 says on the display that it is getting, "PCM Multi CH".    I am hearing what I believe to be the left and right front channels of the multi channel mix. 

I am going to do a hard reset of the Sony.  It just seems that the Sony is not sending a two channel mix to the DAC 200.

[jrsub]

2 hours ago, jrsub said:

I am going to do a hard reset of the Sony.  It just seems that the Sony is not sending a two channel mix to the DAC 200.

Still no luck,  I contacted T+A support regarding the issues I am having. 

[OE333]

4 hours ago, jrsub said:

Still no luck,  I contacted T+A support regarding the issues I am having. 

 

 

Problem seems to be that the player does not send a proper 2ch. downmix.

[jrsub]

21 minutes ago, OE333 said:

 

 

Problem seems to be that the player does not send a proper 2ch. downmix.

Yep, that and the SACD static makes me wonder if the player has gone kaput.   Wouldn't surprise me with past experiences I have had with Sony players.

[jrsub]

14 hours ago, jrsub said:

Yep, that and the SACD static makes me wonder if the player has gone kaput.   Wouldn't surprise me with past experiences I have had with Sony players.

I purchased a new Sony UBP-X800M2 player (yea I know - lol) and will get it later today to test.   As a bonus the new player will handle DVD Audio in addition to SACD.   Makes me feel old that I still have a DVD Audio collection, but then again I still have hundreds of cassettes and even vinyl from before cassettes. 

[Miska]

On 4/24/2023 at 1:03 PM, jrsub said:

Yes, and the DAC 200 says on the display that it is getting, "PCM Multi CH".    I am hearing what I believe to be the left and right front channels of the multi channel mix. 

 

SACD has two regions, one for stereo and one for multichannel data. Most discs have these two regions, or just the stereo one.

 

SACD players generally don't do downmixes of DSD source, but play either region. But they cannot play both simultaneously (since they are physically far apart on the disc, and there's only one reading head). So you need to choose between stereo and multichannel output.

 

[jrsub]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

SACD has two regions, one for stereo and one for multichannel data. Most discs have these two regions, or just the stereo one.

 

SACD players generally don't do downmixes of DSD source, but play either region. But they cannot play both simultaneously (since they are physically far apart on the disc, and there's only one reading head). So you need to choose between stereo and multichannel output.

 

I get that.  Regarding SACD, my current player does play the 2 channel SACD layer and I do get a 2 channel DSD signal to the DAC 200.  The issue with playing an SACD is that there is an large amount of static along with the music.    I will be picking up a new player soon and will see if that helps with my issues. 

[jrsub]

1 hour ago, jrsub said:

I get that.  Regarding SACD, my current player does play the 2 channel SACD layer and I do get a 2 channel DSD signal to the DAC 200.  The issue with playing an SACD is that there is an large amount of static along with the music.    I will be picking up a new player soon and will see if that helps with my issues. 

I got the new Sony UDB-X800m2 player  installed and unfortunately it has the exact same issues with SACD and trying to play a Blu Ray movie and get 2 channel sound correctly.  

 

I posted a thread on Audiongon forums to get insight from the members there and the consensus seems to be that playing SACDs through T+A should not work at all due to SACD license requirements.   

 

 

 

 

[OE333]

20 minutes ago, jrsub said:

 

I posted a thread on Audiongon forums to get insight from the members there and the consensus seems to be that playing SACDs through T+A should not work at all due to SACD license requirements.   

 

 

Playback of a 2-channel SACD over the HDMI connection DOES work.

DAC200 and HA200 are licensed products - so don't worry about that.