NVMe SSD designed for audiophiles

[darkforce]

This product is primarily designed for system disks, and Alpha Audio's test was conducted under the data disk. It is not because of their review that we are saying this. Several years ago, long before the conception of this product, we had already concluded, along with local CAT users, that the impact of system disks on sound quality far outweighs that of data disks.

 

The day after the review was published, we discussed this situation with them and expressed our viewpoint. However, they mentioned that due to environmental and time constraints, they were unable to conduct further tests on system disks.

[darkfrank]

Their testing PC is not much different than a standard pc with some useless filters and a fanless case. Eventually, they even added a fan powered by the motherboard...

[Rsmaximasr]

Why would anybody think reading from any type of disk (hdd, ssd, nvme, m.2) would make any difference to the sq? Since you read data into memory from a storage device before it exits the computer, any benefits of the storage device would end when the data gets written to memory. 

IMO, ssd/nvme/m.2 storage technology benefits are the speed increases of data access over hdd. IMO, ssd/nvme/m.2 storage is I’ll used as a caching device because the cheap consumer ssd/nvme/m.2 devices aren’t built with the appropriate overprovisioning that is needed to handle a lot of caching. In the enterprise arena, I would ask a client if they were going to use these types of devices for caching, then they would get the appropriate device with the correct endurance to handle the DWPD/TBW so the device will last 3-5 years

 

[MarcelNL]

let's not revisit the objectivist - subjectivist discussion here please, there are loads of similar effects described by plenty people on various digital components...there is a thread for that discussion

 

[agisthos]

Before the NVME standard appeared, in the early days of JPLAY, I built a custom audio PC for my friend and we found audio improvements by isolating the power line to the SATA SSD drives. We fed the drives via battery power supply instead. Also saw the same improvements powering the JCAT USB output card with its own battery supply.

 

Given that experience I have no doubt a custom NVME drive that attempts to reduce noise may have some positive effect.

[MarcelNL]

indeed, and there is clear effect even when you power this drive from the motherboard, and that is even more clear using a good external LPS.

There also is no clear reason why listening to the same file coming from RAM, loaded from SSD or NVME SSD or a USB stick should sound different...yet it does.

[Ghmi]

I've yet to see an audio spectrum comparison showing any real difference. That would be very easy to do with standard studio equipment.

 

From a pure electronic point of view, the only thing which makes sense is isolating the analog part of the circuit from the digital parts. If there's something which needs isolated and clean power, it's the DACs and amplifiers.

[MarcelNL]

the limitations of what we can measure do not limit what we can hear

 

please PLEASE take that discussion to the objectivist thread...you'll find agreement there

[Ghmi]

What we can hear doesn't even come close to what can be measured nowadays, in terms of signal AND noise. Human senses are nothing to write home about. If you can hear that some sounds are noisy or distorted, it WILL show up on even an entry level spectrum analyzer.

 

And you can trust me on that : measuring small signals which are unaccessible to our senses is a huge part of my job as a researcher. From measurements down to ADC conversion.

[MarcelNL]

3 minutes ago, Ghmi said:

What we can hear doesn't even come close to what can be measured nowadays, in terms of signal AND noise. Human senses are nothing to write home about. If you can hear that some sounds are noisy or distorted, it WILL show up on even an entry level spectrum analyzer.

 

And you can trust me on that : measuring small signals which are unaccessible to our senses is a huge part of my job as a researcher. From measurements down to ADC conversion.

I totally believe you can measure small signals, trust me, in the objectivist thread they'll agree, I however disagree that you can define what we can hear with your measurements and you seem to limit what we can hear to what you can measure...

 

not only that; this discussion adds nothing to the topic as I reckon you did not measure anything of the sound produced from the disk at hand and you seem to ignore the more important bit about the TYPE of memory cell that is important.

 

please feel free to start a topic here;

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/forum/13-music-analysis-objective-subjective/

 

 

[Ghmi]

The disk does not produce any music. The DAC does. Up to this point, there's no concept of music or sound : it's all binary data and none of it will change with filtering, not a single bit.

 

What can happen though is either EMI or digital noise creeping through the supply during read operations. In this case, the SSD is the least of your worries: your CPU, GPU and RAM are basically noise-production machines compared to a standard SSD. Particularly the CPU and GPU, which will generate regular voltage drops on power rails which carry several amps , which you cannot filter out. Filtering on the digital side is like trying to empty an ocean with a scoop. Focusing on the digital side makes no sense at all : it's all noise anyway, whatever you do.

 

That's actually not unusual for digital noise to creep into small amplified signals, most PCs show signs of that. But the way we deal with that in engineering is by isolating the (external) DAC and amplifiers. That's the real solution: put all your analog circuit in a faraday cage and on a separate stable and filtered power supply (preferably a dedicated battery). Instead of trying to filter out a random potential source of noise within an ocean of noise, isolate the analog circuit from it all. It may not be as cheap as the audiophile SSD, but it makes a world of difference, not just a subjective difference only few will feel. If done properly, you can even get the same delivery as a fully analog system, providing you use high resolution audio files and DACs.

[Rsmaximasr]

I worked for 1 of the largest hdd and solid state storage manufacturers in the world and I worked in the solid state technology side of things. At an audio show many years ago, I had an audio manufacturer tell a group of people that he can hear the difference in sq between hard disk drives and he only uses a specific drive in his equipment. I looked at the drive and told him that drive is actually made by us and rebranded. So in reality, if he heard a difference between the original manufacturers drive and the rebranded drive, he was full of *&^%, they were the same drive with 2 different vendor names.

[Ghmi]

You can actually test the effect a drive has on audio data itself : write an audio file on it, read it back, and compare the binary sequences. If there's even a 1 bit difference, that's not normal : any properly working HDD will give you exactly what you write on it.

 

Any difference in sound comes from the analog part of the circuit. Not the digital part. The analog circuit, DACs, amplifiers, cables, speakers are sensitive to noise and distortions. Not the HDD, RAM and CPU.

[MarcelNL]

I have two hints...read up on the topic, and counting bits is not the answer.

As much as using a different network card, network switch, putting a LPSU on computer, SSD, switch, router matters for sound it's NOT changing one bit...and that point we all agree

Rather than excluding the possibility that HDD RAM and CPU matter I'd suggest start reading here (beware, it's long but packed with information)

 

 

[Rsmaximasr]

Just because somebody says doing X will boost your sq, doesn’t mean it’s true. You have to judge the change yourself. I did a test between 2 servers a few years ago: mac vs. enterprise server costing high 6 digits with 256G ram, ecc memory, many Intel procs, over a dozen enterprise ssd/nvme/m.2/pcie sss, using Ubuntu with Roon, the sq wasn’t any different. The enterprise server sounds like an airplane taking off because of all the fans going full throttle, but since both servers were located in a different part of the house, you couldn’t hear any of the noise. Plus, all of the noise coming from the enterprise server didn’t have any impact on the sound coming out of the Ethernet port going to my dac.

 

After reading part of this building a diy server, I stopped when I saw 1 statement: using usb! Here is someone spending time and some decent money on a server trying to eke out the most sq from a custom server, and he is using the worst interface to a dac: usb. How many tweaks is this guy going to apply to usb to try to get better performance out of usb? Most of the audiophile community use usb because their cheaper dacs is all they have. So they buy a usb dac then spend hundreds or more $$$ on reclockers, ifi cables, separate boxes, whatever they can get to improve the sound. I was there many years ago and sold all that crap. Now, some of the better dacs aren’t even including usb and if you’ve seen many reviews of dacs over the last few years, the reviewers have preferred the sq using the non-usb inputs.

So if I see someone with ideas on how to improve sq of a music system but they also use usb, I stop reading at that point.

[Exocer]

33 minutes ago, Rsmaximasr said:

Just because somebody says doing X will boost your sq, doesn’t mean it’s true. You have to judge the change yourself. I did a test between 2 servers a few years ago: mac vs. enterprise server costing high 6 digits with 256G ram, ecc memory, many Intel procs, over a dozen enterprise ssd/nvme/m.2/pcie sss, using Ubuntu with Roon, the sq wasn’t any different. The enterprise server sounds like an airplane taking off because of all the fans going full throttle, but since both servers were located in a different part of the house, you couldn’t hear any of the noise. Plus, all of the noise coming from the enterprise server didn’t have any impact on the sound coming out of the Ethernet port going to my dac.

 

After reading part of this building a diy server, I stopped when I saw 1 statement: using usb! Here is someone spending time and some decent money on a server trying to eke out the most sq from a custom server, and he is using the worst interface to a dac: usb. How many tweaks is this guy going to apply to usb to try to get better performance out of usb? Most of the audiophile community use usb because their cheaper dacs is all they have. So they buy a usb dac then spend hundreds or more $$$ on reclockers, ifi cables, separate boxes, whatever they can get to improve the sound. I was there many years ago and sold all that crap. Now, some of the better dacs aren’t even including usb and if you’ve seen many reviews of dacs over the last few years, the reviewers have preferred the sq using the non-usb inputs.

So if I see someone with ideas on how to improve sq of a music system but they also use usb, I stop reading at that point.

😎 hey man, to each their own. FWIW the guidance in that thread has improved the sq in my system beyond my wildest dreams. The Femto NVME also adds its magic with and without external power. 
 

I suggest you not assume those of us using USB haven’t tried other modes of transport. The thread is very open and transparent in general. Many of us have tried the tweaks/enhancements there and have reported back with positive feedback. 
 

We are not simply taking someone else’s word for it. Many of us have taken matter’s into our own hands and are enjoying what we hear as a result. Much of the guidance there is impactful regardless of if USB is used or not.

[Ghmi]

4 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

I have two hints...read up on the topic, and counting bits is not the answer.

As much as using a different network card, network switch, putting a LPSU on computer, SSD, switch, router matters for sound it's NOT changing one bit...and that point we all agree

Rather than excluding the possibility that HDD RAM and CPU matter I'd suggest start reading here (beware, it's long but packed with information)

 

 

This thread is a nightmare from an electronic engineering standpoint. All the efforts spent on the digital parts of the setup (most of them futile or even detrimental), to end-up with a non-isolated DAC ?!?

 

Using regulators instead of a proper regulated switching power supply is heretical. These regulators have horrifically low yields and won't handle fast changes in power draw properly, generating MORE noise on power rails and maybe even on the ground than any decent PC power supply.

 

The gold and silver things are absolutely unnecessary. They won't make any difference on noise for cables of this scale (it only makes a difference for very thin wires).

And in the end, it's always the same issue : you're working on digital parts which job basically is to generate noise. From an audio standpoint, everything digital IS noise and what you may be able to filter out without turning your PC into a toaster oven is infinitesimal  compared to the normal functioning of a computer.

 

Just. Isolate. The. Analog. Part. Of. The. Circuit. Use an all analog amp, any connection between the PC and DAC which allows isolation, proper shielding, stable power supply for the DAC and amps and that's it.

Don't try to scoop out some tiny part of an ocean of noise : get your DAC and amps out of it entirely.

 

You're basically saying that your house is too hot, but that setting up a fancy cooler in your garden makes you feel cooler. Good for you, but that's not just a subjective improvement : it's also a huge waste of money and energy for the result you get.

Isolate your house and put the cooler inside instead.

[Patatorz]

 

😀

[darkfrank]

I stopped reading when someone said he couldn't distinguish any SQ difference between a Mac and an enterprise server, lol.

[MarcelNL]

11 minutes ago, darkfrank said:

I stopped reading when someone said he couldn't distinguish any SQ difference between a Mac and an enterprise server, lol.

some folks would not hear any difference between a live violin and one reproduced off a recording...

[Rsmaximasr]

And many people think they can hear improvements in sq when they spend thousands of $$$ in usb gimmicks/tweaks.

[flkin]

11 hours ago, MarcelNL said:

some folks would not hear any difference between a live violin and one reproduced off a recording...

 

Oh man, if only I could get there.. 😁

[chrisc]

After skimming through this topic, are these M.2 drives being sold?

[Smaragdhk]

On 11/28/2023 at 7:26 PM, chrisc said:

After skimming through this topic, are these M.2 drives being sold?

 

https://jcat.eu/product/m-2-femto-ssd/

[NewOldman]

Revelation Femto SSD | Zzyzx (zzyzxphile.com)