Marantz introduced a new Integrated and SACD Player/Network player today

[sandyk]

You can SHOUT all you like , but the original requests from many members were for a Vinyl section in what was basically a Digital forum ( Computer Audiophile)

[Rexp]

Class D isn't Analog - end of discussion. 

[kumakuma]

2 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Class D isn't Analog - end of discussion. 

 

All Amplifiers are Analogue, but Some Amplifiers are More Analogue than Others

 

 

This paper intends to clarify the terms "digital" and "analogue" as applied to class-D audio power amplifiers. Since loudspeaker terminals require an analogue voltage, an audio power amplifier must have an analogue output. If its input is digital, digital-to-analogue conversion is executed at some point. Once a designer acknowledges the analogue output properties of a class-D power stage, amplifier quality can improve. The incorrect assumption that some amplifiers are supposedly digital, causes many designers to come up with twisted digital patches to ordinary analogue phenomena such as timing distortion or supply rejection. This irrational approach blocks the way to a rich world of well-established analogue techniques to avoid many of these problems and realize otherwise unattainable characteristics such as excellent THD+N and extremely low output impedance throughout the audio band.

 

https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=13494

 

[R1200CL]

[Rexp]

14 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

All Amplifiers are Analogue, but Some Amplifiers are More Analogue than Others

 

 

This paper intends to clarify the terms "digital" and "analogue" as applied to class-D audio power amplifiers. Since loudspeaker terminals require an analogue voltage, an audio power amplifier must have an analogue output. If its input is digital, digital-to-analogue conversion is executed at some point. Once a designer acknowledges the analogue output properties of a class-D power stage, amplifier quality can improve. The incorrect assumption that some amplifiers are supposedly digital, causes many designers to come up with twisted digital patches to ordinary analogue phenomena such as timing distortion or supply rejection. This irrational approach blocks the way to a rich world of well-established analogue techniques to avoid many of these problems and realize otherwise unattainable characteristics such as excellent THD+N and extremely low output impedance throughout the audio band.

 

https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=13494

 

Sure it has an analog output, so what, so does a CD player. Analog in this context means analog in, analog out with no digital conversion in the middle. 

[AudioDoctor]

@The Computer Audiophile Chris, I need to apologize for causing this mini shite storm here. I honestly had no idea that a new Marantz amplifier and SACD/DAC would cause such controversy.

[Miska]

9 hours ago, GUTB said:

Class D is useless trash. Possibly technology will progress to the point where class D will compete with linear amplification in terms of sound quality but we're not there yet. 

 

One thing with traditional class-D is that it uses very simple analog modulators. Also if you feed such from a DAC you need to take care that the DAC doesn't output any ultrasonic images or such, because those amplifiers have aliasing effects down to audio band. So just using any DAC won't lead to good results, because majority of DACs produce those images when running for example from RedBook sources. DAC and the used upsampling needs to be carefully selected to have a clean result from aliasing perspective.

 

Instead of analog modulators, one can use much more advanced digital modulators. Amplifier essentially becomes a "power DAC". No intermediate low level analog signal at all. However making such from scratch is not very easy, both the software and hardware can be very tricky to get right...

 

Disclaimer: I'm affiliated with one...

 

[AudioDoctor]

Amplifiers are right in the description of the forum, I'm not sure why anyone is arguing about the posting of an amplifier here unless they want to be ultra pedantic.

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

have aliasing effects down to audio band

Well, won’t using HQPlayer helping avoiding that ?

I would also expect anti aliasing filters would be applied in most DAC’s. Or you add then on input of the amplifier. So I don’t expect this to be an issue today. Manufacturers must be aware of this. 
 

Still I’m not sure I understand why a Hypex vs a class A amplifier should act differently on input signal. But I probably won’t understand the answer either 😀
 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

13 hours ago, GUTB said:

Class D is useless trash.

 

I object Sir ! Trash can and should be recycled !😁

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

12 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

I'll reserve judgement until I actually hear the thing...

 

I object Sir ! I have measurements !

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

12 hours ago, 4est said:

Good gear can be had in both, and the better either SS or tube examples sound, the more they sound alike.

 

I object Sir ! I banish Ye to ASR

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

9 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I hope one day Chris will be able to listen to them. I know he’s skeptical about class D. 

 

D is a fail !

[sandyk]

On 9/4/2020 at 1:35 PM, AudioDoctor said:

The Integrated is using the Hypex Ncore class D amplifiers, meaning GUTB already hates it. The Network player does USB PCM up to 384khz and DSD to 11.2 Mhz.

Both of these components use switching technology . This area was a result of numerous requests for an all analogue area, with mainly Vinyl playback to discuss non switching (digital ) components which were not covered originally in Computer Audiophile. 

 Pure Analogue components are items such as Turntables , and their Cartridges, Vinyl playback in general,RIAA Phono Preamps, Reel to Reel and Cassette decks. AM and FM Tuners , Analogue Preamps and Analogue Power Amplifiers..

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

Amplifiers are right in the description of the forum, I'm not sure why anyone is arguing about the posting of an amplifier here unless they want to be ultra pedantic.

Audiophiles, ultra pedantic? No way!

 

Hang on, I’m being told this description will be in the updated DSM 6. 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Well, won’t using HQPlayer helping avoiding that ?

 

Yes, but you still need a bit of care with the DAC pairing. For example something like 352.8/384k PCM output is not sufficient. Which is what pretty much all on-chip digital filters output.

 

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I would also expect anti aliasing filters would be applied in most DAC’s. Or you add then on input of the amplifier. So I don’t expect this to be an issue today.

 

Reconstruction filters, anti-alias filters are at ADC side. Class-D amp's modulator is essentially like an ADC.

 

They have a little bit, usually second order analog filter (12 dB/oct) with fc around 100 kHz.

 

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Manufacturers must be aware of this.

 

I think they are not, or alternatively conveniently ignored.

 

[mav52]

On 9/4/2020 at 12:47 PM, GUTB said:

 

Class D? Embarrassing trash. I guess that's the state of Marantz.

I guess you have heard all the class D amps made, good for you.

[4est]

9 hours ago, sandyk said:

Both of these components use switching technology . This area was a result of numerous requests for an all analogue area, with mainly Vinyl playback to discuss non switching (digital ) components which were not covered originally in Computer Audiophile. 

 Pure Analogue components are items such as Turntables , and their Cartridges, Vinyl playback in general,RIAA Phono Preamps, Reel to Reel and Cassette decks. AM and FM Tuners , Analogue Preamps and Analogue Power Amplifiers..

Perhaps you haven't noticed, this site is now Audiophile Style, and typically vinyl does have a lot of style to it.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, 4est said:

Perhaps you haven't noticed, this site is now Audiophile Style, and typically vinyl does have a lot of style to it.

 

 I was simply pointing out that this section has been asked for many times previously, even well before the name change.

Although I no longer have vinyl,  due to the promises of immature Digital technology which >35 years later is still being refined, I believe that now that we are Audiophile Style forum , members should be entitled to an Analogue ONLY area, free of equipment with internal Digital processing where a purely analogue only version is available.

[AudioDoctor]

Some of you are exactly why I never even considered becoming a psych Dr...

[sandyk]

5 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Some of you are exactly why I never even considered becoming a psych Dr...

 

 Is it too much to ask that  the many members who asked for this sub forum  be permitted a Digital free area ? 

There are already several other areas where you could have posted this thread.

[AudioDoctor]

32 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Is it too much to ask that  the many members who asked for this sub forum  be permitted a Digital free area ? 

There are already several other areas where you could have posted this thread.

 

Are you being fucking serious right now?

[AudioDoctor]

Hmmmmmm

 

http://www.channld.com/purevinyl/

[Rexp]

11 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Are you being fucking serious right now?

Are you!?

[AudioDoctor]

4 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Are you!?

 

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