Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[rah50]

My BG7TBL clock arrived yesterday. Left it warming overnight and listened this morning. Nothing earth shattering but a nice improvement, mostly to the soundstage with more depth and focus, and also to bottom end detail. Certainly worth the money! I'm using the Geistnote Wyde Eye and the sine wave output to the MicroCircuits Filter. Power is by an Astron 7 amp linear, not great but better than the wall wart included. I'm awaiting on some of Alexey's LT3045 modules to improve the Astron ps. Then maybe some neoprene etc.

 

The ocxo looks to be a CMAC, but I can't identify the specific model. Here's a pic if anyone knows anything about it.

[Mihaylov]

On 6/18/2022 at 7:22 PM, rah50 said:

I'm using the Geistnote Wyde Eye and the sine wave output

It is better to use the oscillator output directly as shown in the photo. You can use any output of the device for this.

 

[Mihaylov]

This is my option in a separate chassis with a built-in linear power supply.

 

[rah50]

Thanks Mihaylov. That mod looks pretty straight forward. I'm all thumbs with a soldering iron, so I'll have my brother do it when I see him next month.

 

Do you have any details on the ocxo?

[Mihaylov]

1 hour ago, rah50 said:

Do you have any details on the ocxo?

There are no details unfortunately. A year ago, I already showed a photo of this oscillator here.

[Sonic77]

Just received my Afterdark project Clayx Giesemann OCXO 10mhz Reference master Clock.

I will do some listening tonight.

The additional power cord is a Beldon Iconoclast BAV power cable.

I have some Beldon 4694R BNC cables on the way tomorrow.

BNC Connections:

   1. EtherREGEN-->DirectStream DAC-->Blu Hawaii Amp/Woo Audio WA33 Amp

   2. sNH-10G Audio Switch Hub--Chord Blu MK2-->DAVE DAC

   3. Mutec MC-3+USB -->Mirus DAC

 

Model: Giesemann Eva

Phase Noise:

1Hz -121

10Hz-145

[richard_crl032]

On 6/23/2022 at 8:21 AM, Mihaylov said:

It is better to use the oscillator output directly as shown in the photo. You can use any output of the device for this.

 

Hi Mihaylov, I am interested on this mod since inexpensive.  How was the conclusion reached and will this be sine waveform then ? I only need to solder this out eith some good coaxial cable to any of the 3 outputs and used it ? Any recommended trace locations to cut off to those 2 no longer usable outputs especially to square waveform if indeed remaining output is sine waveform ? Lastly and just in case I mess it up, left is the signal or the right while the other is ground? Many thanks in advance. Cheers.

[Mihaylov]

Hi Richard!

On 6/29/2022 at 6:05 PM, richard_crl032 said:

How was the conclusion reached and will this be sine waveform then ?

Here is the waveform on the output of the oscillator.

 

 

On 6/29/2022 at 6:05 PM, richard_crl032 said:

I only need to solder this out eith some good coaxial cable to any of the 3 outputs and used it ?

Yes. But first the C32 capacitor must be removed and then the oscillator output will be disconnected from the circuit. You also need to remove the inductance L12 if the middle output of the clock is to be used (or L10 or L5 if the left or right outputs are used, respectively). 

Only one output of the clock will function, namely the one to which the output of the ocillator will be connected by a coaxial cable.

For my recommendations to be absolutely accurate, it would be good if you showed a photo of the back of your clock's board. If this board is different from mine.

 

[rah50]

BG7TBL clock report #2:

 

I upgraded the Astron lps powering the clock by adding Alexey's LT3045 modules, 2 x 1 amp in parallel. 

 

Wow, bigger improvement than just adding the BG7TBL itself. Much blacker background, music coming out of that background in stark relief with great body/solidity, almost holographic. Way cleaner low end again. I keep wanting to turn up the volume!

 

Next mod will be @Mihaylov direct connection to the ocxo output in 2 weeks when my brother comes to do the surgery. I'm right at $200 into this and it's money VERY well spent. I can't imagine what a $1500+ clock would do and sadly I won't find out, retirement has made me the thrifty audiophile!

[rah50]

@Mihaylov We made your mod for direct connection to the ocxo output today. I think a little improvement. However, the red error light comes/stays on. Is this normal?

 

Also, this was very easy. No desoldering necessary, the two parts just pulled out without any heat applied, not very well put together!

 

[Mihaylov]

22 hours ago, rah50 said:

However, the red error light comes/stays on. Is this normal?

Yeah, that's okay. This happens because the signal from the output of the oscillator does not arrive at the rest of the outputs of the clock.

[TomJ]

Hello guys,

 

Regardless of what values a clock has in terms of phase noise, what is ultimately relevant is what is output from the Etherregen via Ethernet and arrives at the receiver.

 

Are there any measurements that can prove an improvement of the differential signal (e.g. Ethernet jitter) and common mode noise when using an external clock?

 

 

[Mihaylov]

I doubt it. It's also like you can't measure SQ.

[TomJ]

15 minutes ago, Mihaylov said:

I doubt it. It's also like you can't measure SQ.

You can measure that very well. I have been doing this for a while with other switches.

I have published several measurements in a German Audiophile Forum:

https://www-open--end--music-com.translate.goog/forum/privatforen/thomas-michael-rudolph-tmr/651284-messungen-von-ethernet-infrastruktur-nur-lesen?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

I just have done measurements of the Etherregen with and without a 10MHz NeutronStar 3 10MHz Clock and will publish the results next.

[TomJ]

Hi guys,

 

my summary of the measurements of the EtherREGEN are currently published:
https://www.open-end-music.com/forum/pr ... post658415

 

I also measured the EtherREGEN with an external 10MHz clock to see if there is really any improvement on this.

 

Maybe this will interest one or the other.

 

I had also requested here in with the forum owner an article concerning the topic Ethernet sound with my measurements, on this unfortunately then no more answer received.
So you have to read the article with Google Translate and maybe accept small translation errors.

 

Best regards and happy reading,

 

Tom

 

 

[dylanesque]

Thanks for sharing the results @TomJ

intriguing that ext. clock measures poor. 
Could you please shed light if the Neutronstar 3 is sq wave output? Would’ve been very interesting with Mutec Ref10120 or Adark. 

[TomJ]

46 minutes ago, dylanesque said:

Thanks for sharing the results @TomJ

intriguing that ext. clock measures poor. 
Could you please shed light if the Neutronstar 3 is sq wave output? Would’ve been very interesting with Mutec Ref10120 or Adark. 

Its sq wave.
But the users of this clock report a similar sound improvement as with the afterdark giesemann, but not as strong.

 

And here is a statement of Ed Meitner regarding external clocks (for DACs, but this is the same for switches):

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/meitner-emm-dv2-dsd-mqa-digital-audio

Quote:

JVS: You don't believe in using an external word clock. Why?

EM: Because I think this is the most stupid thing I've ever heard in the audio business. That means you have a precision clock that you have to connect to a wire to connect to a DAC, when the clock should be straight away where it belongs, inside the DAC, beside the DAC chip, if there is such a thing—not through a cable in a different box. This is so idiotic, it's not even funny. It's a money grab.

[Savolax]

4 hours ago, TomJ said:

I also measured the EtherREGEN with an external 10MHz clock to see if there is really any improvement on this.

Did you find any improvement (or any difference) with external clock while listening?

[TomJ]

30 minutes ago, Savolax said:

Did you find any improvement (or any difference) with external clock while listening?

As i am biased, i refer statements regarding sound improvements in this regard to the owners and users.

And as I said, they report an improvement in sound, which I do not question.

[R1200CL]

Interesting to notice the power measurements. Would have been nice if Uptone own SMPS was part of the test. Also with some more audiophile PS. Especially Uptone own LPS-1.2. 

[Mihaylov]

Correct link to the measurements of ER .

Without going into the details of the measurements and the results obtained, I will only note that the external clock based on Neutron Star 3 may have even worse phase noise parameters than the one installed in the ER (Crystek). It makes sense to use an external clock only with obviously better phase noise values than those installed in the ER, and this will necessarily be OCXO - Neutron Star 3 does not have OCXO installed.

[Mihaylov]

I also note once again that in order to evaluate the quality of a particular network audio device (for example, a switch in this case) using certain measurements, it is necessary to prove in one way or another that these measurements correlate with sound quality. It's a separate big time-consuming work and I didn't find that in the measurements.
Without this, it is better to evaluate any audio device by sound quality as is customary.

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, Mihaylov said:

Neutron Star 3 does not have OCXO installed.

One could ask the guy's intentions. Or he is just a person that doesn’t know better. Reminds of a certain other guy that is showing of his measurements and screws things up. 

[Superdad]

15 hours ago, TomJ said:

Hi guys,

 

my summary of the measurements of the EtherREGEN are currently published:
https://www.open-end-music.com/forum/pr ... post658415

 

I also measured the EtherREGEN with an external 10MHz clock to see if there is really any improvement on this.

 

Maybe this will interest one or the other.

 

I had also requested here in with the forum owner an article concerning the topic Ethernet sound with my measurements, on this unfortunately then no more answer received.
So you have to read the article with Google Translate and maybe accept small translation errors.

 

Best regards and happy reading,

 

Tom

 

Hi Tom (I thought you are Eric):

 

Thank you for your interesting work project with the measurements of switches--including the EtherREGEN--and the effect with clocks, power supplies, etc.

While we think you are facing in the right direction, there are considerable limitations with your methodology and test equipment.  I shared your report with @JohnSwenson and we had a long and interesting conversation about it.  

 

We may have a number of significant suggestions to guide you towards achieving more truthful and revealing measurements, both with respect to common-mode leakage, jitter, and ground-plane noise. Some of these may require a very modest investment of your time (and a little money) to build a more proper set-up that will reveal far more than what you are seeing. (Though there may be nothing we can do about the fact that your jitter measurements with that digital sampling scope are only ever going to be as good as the rather poor clock in the scope generating the eye-pattern. That is why all your numbers come out rather high.)

 

However, I do not want to preempt John's knowledgeable words and thoughts on the matter. I have asked him to write a few paragraphs of critique and suggestion--which he will either post himself or give to me for editing. Then there can be meaningful discussion.

We do see it as beneficial for us to engage with thoughtful and technically curious people like yourself. Because unlike closed-minded folks who already have their minds made up that there is nothing to see or hear, you come from a place where you have heard things and want to explore the technical reasons behind what is heard. 

 

 

Concerning the NewClassD Neutron Star 3 clock you tested with the EtherREGEN:

One the years I have yet to find ANY published phase-noise plot for their modules. And since they sell it as sort of a DIY board for users to implement, there seems to be (from the waveform graphs seem at the AH forum) a great variation in quality of even its basic output. Referring to our white paper on clocks (sine vs. square, impedance matching, cables, etc.) a poor squarewave clock will be worse than an average sine wave.

 

So it would not be a surprise that our internal Crystek CCHD-575--just millimeters away from the SilLabs/Skyworks clock synthesizer--would yield better performance (though again you are creating one jitter number using a generator with a high floor itself).

In real production we find that the phase-noise of the Crystek CCHD-575 is far better than Crystek's own published graphs; we measure (with Jackson Labs PhaseStation) -108 to -112 dBc/Hz at 10Hz offset for the 25.0MHz XO we use. That is roughly equivalent to a 10MHz clock with -119dBc/Hz at 10Hz offset. Short of an expensive OCXO (were are talking $350+ other than new-old-stock surplus; $55 Connor Winfield need not apply), we continue to believe that the Crystek CCHD-575 is about the lowest phase noise production XO available.

 

Thanks again for your efforts and enthusiasm.  We look forward to continuing a dialog with you and the community.

And along the way I may drop hints about EtherREGEN Gen2--whose development is proceeding more quickly of late and which will include some significant technical advances over even our beloved first generation model (2+ years and 3,200 units later we have learned a few interesting things--and more advanced chips have come into the picture.) 

 

Warmly,

Alex Crespi

 

P.S. I have been trying to register for user membership at both Aktives-Hoeren.de and at open-end-music.com where you and so many of our German clients and friends post. But I have so far been unsuccessful in completing the process (the registration confirmation e-mails never come). So I may ask you to share over at those sites some of our postings from here.  

[TomJ]

9 hours ago, Superdad said:

Hi Tom (I thought you are Eric):

Hi Alex,

 

let me describe it in a little more detail:

 

I am Eric and had previously used the nickname Tom here on the forum. I will sign with Eric in the future to make it easier. My measurements and reports are posted in the open-ended music forum by Thomas-Michael Rudolph, as he is a friend in mind and has many years of experience in reducing noise in the power line. Like me, he is a wanderer between the worlds of science and audiophilia. He had offered to post the measurements in a read-only thread so that they would not be constantly fragmented by posts and trolls. Therefore, the forum member in the post itself is Thomas, but always names me as the author.

 

9 hours ago, Superdad said:

Thank you for your interesting work project with the measurements of switches--including the EtherREGEN--and the effect with clocks, power supplies, etc.

While we think you are facing in the right direction, there are considerable limitations with your methodology and test equipment.  I shared your report with @JohnSwenson and we had a long and interesting conversation about it.  

 

We may have a number of significant suggestions to guide you towards achieving more truthful and revealing measurements, both with respect to common-mode leakage, jitter, and ground-plane noise. Some of these may require a very modest investment of your time (and a little money) to build a more proper set-up that will reveal far more than what you are seeing. (Though there may be nothing we can do about the fact that your jitter measurements with that digital sampling scope are only ever going to be as good as the rather poor clock in the scope generating the eye-pattern. That is why all your numbers come out rather high.)

 

This is really great and really appreciated. I am grateful and open to any professional advice.

If he doesn't want to make the clues completely public in the first step, feel free to contact me via PM.

 

I have been on quite a journey with this topic. I started discussing with the hardware guys, but they declared me a nut because I hear things. Then I started discussing with the audio guys, but they treated me like a traitor just because I started measuring. In addition, which is always argued here only with half-knowledge, so that a discussion is difficult. (You will realize this if you read through the threads, in the German forum). This then brought me to Thomas in the open-end forum, because he understood my approach and showed interest in it.

Regarding the scope: The scope was currently used by 100base tx and also 1000base tx in the Ethernet area as standard for jitter measurements. It is sufficient to show differences between the switches (EtherREGEN is one of the best, which agrees with your statements).
It is not intended to measure phase noise of clocks - that is not my claim, but it is measured what comes out of the boxes.

 

9 hours ago, Superdad said:

We do see it as beneficial for us to engage with thoughtful and technically curious people like yourself. Because unlike closed-minded folks who already have their minds made up that there is nothing to see or hear, you come from a place where you have heard things and want to explore the technical reasons behind what is heard. 

 

Yes, you got it! I am not a copy of audio “science” review!
I don't want to prove that sound changes via ethernet are not possible, I'm just an incredibly curious technology and audio nerd who wants to know the reasons for this and no longer wants to be satisfied with myths and half-knowledge.

For a long time I was convinced that nothing can change on the way of the data. Until I heard sound differences in isolators and also LAN cables. I began to tinker with cables and insulators, but only design by ear, which was totally unsatisfactory in the long run. I then began to assemble my measurement equipment with the recommendation of Ethernet professionals. I also discussed with Galen Gareis and other pros.

9 hours ago, Superdad said:

Concerning the NewClassD Neutron Star 3 clock you tested with the EtherREGEN:

One the years I have yet to find ANY published phase-noise plot for their modules. And since they sell it as sort of a DIY board for users to implement, there seems to be (from the waveform graphs seem at the AH forum) a great variation in quality of even its basic output. Referring to our white paper on clocks (sine vs. square, impedance matching, cables, etc.) a poor squarewave clock will be worse than an average sine wave.

Regarding the NeutronSTAR 3 clock: I know there is no technical data, but all owners of the clock report a sound improvement with EtherREGEN. Even if the implementation is lousy (as seems to be the case with many clock upgrade switches). And the actual question is, how can a lousy implementation with worsen jitter and noise improve sound quality? One conclusion could be, that it is done by noise demodulation in the analog area.

By the way: Its a square-wave clock

 

9 hours ago, Superdad said:

P.S. I have been trying to register for user membership at both Aktives-Hoeren.de and at open-end-music.com where you and so many of our German clients and friends post. But I have so far been unsuccessful in completing the process (the registration confirmation e-mails never come). So I may ask you to share over at those sites some of our postings from here.  

 

This may have something to do with Google translate. I had provided my links as Google Translate links.
Please try again without Google Translate - otherwise I will inform the forum management. Jürgen from the Aktives-Hören Forum has apparently already contacted you personally outside the thread here. The guys have already discovered the communication here and are already curious what comes out.

 

I look forward to a constructive exchange with you and thank you for your feedback,

 

All the best,

 

Eric