Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[realfx]

10 hours ago, Mops911 said:

 

Again, I got a "Top2" here https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256802980837876.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.15.64541802SszZEV&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

 

which measured 144dB at 10HZ ... yes, it comes without a power supply and without plot....but who cares at this performance and price.....

 

Cheers

Tom

I’ve been said this is the source of all the OCXOs inside Afterdark Giesemann 10Mhz units (Afterdark uses the very same Symmetricom refurbished OCXOs like those ones in the aliexpress link)

[R1200CL]

11 hours ago, Superdad said:

Can I borrow $85,000 from someone for that?

Be carefull what you wish for 😀

I predict you will easily get those money if you crow-founded them. (But that’s against your religion😀)

 

Just in this forum I guess you find 85 to a 150 people willing to put $900 each in your pocket, and in addition willing to wait a year or more to get such fantastic product. 
(Maybe I should start a poll 🙄)

 

Maybe John wouldn’t be that excited, putting even more work on his shoulders.

Any update on all ongoing developments?

 

5 hours ago, Mops911 said:

If you have a good business case :-D

oh, man this is a very good business case. A reasonable priced clock with those numbers is a no-brainer. 
Should be paired with upcoming JS4. 

[simon_pepper]

16 hours ago, Superdad said:

On 11/18/2023 at 1:20 AM, Schafheide said:

Are you aware of a (perhaps) suitable clock which has an integral LPS ??

Not for under $1,700.

Would this work? A Cybershaft 10MHz unit with intergral power supply. Same it is a fixed 110v unit.

 

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/325883729328?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=5282-175127-2357-0&ssspo=cVFD3uNmSLO&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=5mxZD8mLSWy&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, simon_pepper said:

Would this work? A Cybershaft 10MHz unit with intergral power supply. Same it is a fixed 110v unit.

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/325883729328?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=5282-175127-2357-0&ssspo=cVFD3uNmSLO&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=5mxZD8mLSWy&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Sure, looks like a good buy. But I was speaking just of current, new products.  That's a 2019 discontinued model from Cybershaft.  I do not know anything about its built in power supply. But still, it will be about -130dBc/Hz @10Hz (and about -110dBc/Hz at 1Hz offset), so far better than either of those LHY OCK units previously discussed.

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, realfx said:

I’ve been said this is the source of all the OCXOs inside Afterdark Giesemann 10Mhz units (Afterdark uses the very same Symmetricom refurbished OCXOs like those ones in the aliexpress link)

Last I checked, the AfterDark units were built with sorted/graded new-old-stock CTS125 OCXOs. Not with used clocks.

But perhaps for their upper end models (Emperor, etc.) they may be forced to find and test used high performance modules.  Indeed, most of what you are paying for with the AfterDark units is the time it takes to individually grade/plot each unit. 

[Superdad]

14 hours ago, Mops911 said:

If you have a good business case :-D

Well that's just it, there really is not a good business case for UpTone to produce a clock box based on a $325 (OEM cost) 114dBc/Hz @1Hz / -145dBc/Hz @10Hz OCXO.

See below.

 

8 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Be carefull what you wish for 😀

I predict you will easily get those money if you crow-founded them. (But that’s against your religion😀)

You are correct. Engaging in crowd-fleecing is anathema to my biz philosophy. 

But the money is not really the issue. (It is there and investable--especially once EtherREGEN Gen2 is in production.)

 

8 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Just in this forum I guess you find 85 to a 150 people willing to put $900 each in your pocket, and in addition willing to wait a year or more to get such fantastic product. 
oh, man this is a very good business case. A reasonable priced clock with those numbers is a no-brainer. 

$900? For a full clock box with 2-4 outputs, in a nice case with built-in linear power supply? Dream on! 

 

Just look at basic cost estimate to build, even keeping it very basic:

OCXO -- $330 delivered

PCB with proper circuitry and jacks for 2-4 outputs -- $150

Modest linear power supply (transformer, diodes, caps, good regs) -- $150

Takachi aluminum enclosure (similar or the same as JS-2 case since there needs to be room for PS, power inlet, jacks, etc.) -- $138

===

As you can see, without even adding in packaging costs, labor, CC/PayPal fees (we always absorb those--3.9% to crazy 5% for Intl. PayPal) or any royalty for John, we are up to $768. My business model (zero advertising, minimal staff and overhead, personal direct user support, 10-15% discounts for dealers) just barely works when I double total build/expense cost.

Thus a clock as described above would come out to sell for at least $1,750, likely a bit more since I may be underestimating build cost and we would probably include some creative things. Now it would be a very beautiful and high performance clock--and probably quite competitive with upper end brands. 

But would it be wholly original?  The new Mutec REF10 Nano is coming out at $2,499 (dealer cost is 40% off that so maybe it will eventually available at about $2K) and it is a fine and refined unit as Mutec have been at this for a while.

And then there are the many good Cybershaft models, units from AfterDark, and a host of lesser Chinese clocks of all sorts.

 

So perhaps you all can see why we are not anxious to jump into the clock-box-building business.  We would rather stick to doing other more radical product development. 

 

========

All that said, @JohnSwenson has, in what little spare time he has, been working a bit on a discrete clock circuit. Similar to the DIY project of Andrea Mori (The Well Tempered Master Clock) and Ian Canada's new SCPure, John's is somewhat based on decades old scholarly research--but using tiny modern parts and SMD crystals we have sampled from Laptech. Based on his refinements and what he has done so far, he thinks we could accomplish in production for about $120 the ultra-low phase noise that we would have to pay $330 to an OEM OCXO maker. I am skeptical, in part because I am not yet picturing the tiny milled aluminum case that the whole thing would mount to form the “oven.” All those costs add up! And if we did such a piece, I could envision offering it at 10MHz as well as 22.xxx and 24.xxx audio rates for DACs. And build it into some of our own future products.

But don't hold your breath. Other products come first and such a project might never make it to production.  Still, I enthusiastically support and cheer on all John's research and endeavors. He is a true Time Nut after all! 

[simon_pepper]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Sure, looks like a good buy. But I was speaking just of current, new products.  That's a 2019 discontinued model from Cybershaft.  I do not know anything about its built in power supply. But still, it will be about -130dBc/Hz @10Hz (and about -110dBc/Hz at 1Hz offset), so far better than either of those LHY OCK units previously discussed.

Wonder if it could be modified for 240v usage, as many transformer now are designed for 110v/240v usage.

For me, one clock output for the EtherREGEN is required, and a internal power supply in a single box unit is the ideal footprint.

 

So a sampled crystal unit in a box with a power supply which maintains the ‘better than the internal clock’ specifications as a partnering unit to the EtherREGEN, in a sub $1,000 unit price would be a great offering.

[Superdad]

28 minutes ago, simon_pepper said:

Wonder if it could be modified for 240v usage, as many transformer now are designed for 110v/240v usage.

If you write to Cybershaft I am sure they will tell you if the transformer in that unit can have its primaries field configured for 240V usage. 

[Clockmeister]

Not sure why you don't source a dedicated superior correct primary voltage transformer?

 

The cybershaft clocks can be improved as can pretty much all of the Audio word clocks

 

There will be a new reference clock along in the not distant future by a long-established UK electronics company. No ourselves for this one, but its due very soon. All measurements using the R&S FSWP.

 

Personally I've finished my new standard for the main lab its -129dbc @ 1Hz with absolutely ultra minimal spurri on the phase noise plot without having to use smoothing techniques on the measurement instrument 

 

When I have finalised the psu configuration I will be heading to listening room!

[simon_pepper]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Sure, looks like a good buy. But I was speaking just of current, new products.  That's a 2019 discontinued model from Cybershaft.  I do not know anything about its built in power supply. But still, it will be about -130dBc/Hz @10Hz (and about -110dBc/Hz at 1Hz offset), so far better than either of those LHY OCK units previously discussed.

There seems to be a unit with an integral PSU offered by Aune, which do have a declared specification chart, but probably not per unit.

 

https://www.aune-store.com/en/aune-sc1-audio-clock_110403_1212/

 

There is a cheaper one https://www.aune-store.com/en/aune-xc1-common-audio-clock_110113_1089/ but has an external power supply, probably SMPS, and no declared specification.

 

50ohm output, so would need a Cybershaft Matching adaptor https://cybershaft.shop/products/50-ohm-matching-adapter as my EtherREGEN is a standard 75Ohm version.

@Superdad any thoughts?-

 

[Schafheide]

21 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

LOL!  No offense at all! 

You simply gave me the opening to remind people that our product pricing is silly-low for the included tech. (Which I would not feel the need to say except that we keep seeing all sorts of low-tech/unoriginal entrants in fancy cases come to market with high prices and slick pitches.)

 

 

EtherREGEN Gen2 will have the same 25.0MHz Crystek CCHD-575 as before.  

But regardless of if the internal clock or a lower phase-noise external 10MHz reference clock is chosen by the user--those will now be feeding a pair (there will be two for a complex technical reason) of new ultra-low-jitter clock synthesizers from a different firm than the SiliconLabs/Skyworks previously used.  These new synths--which we use to create differential clocks (most DACs don't even use differential clock lines!) at 25MHz and 1.25GHz for the various chips and our special ultra-low-jitter 10GHz-capable reclocking flip-flop (the most important final stage of the board and another wholly unique engineering aspect of the EtherREGENs).

So due to these new synthesizers, clocking throughout EtherREGEN Gen2 will be better, regardless of whether the internal Crystek or external clock is used as reference to drive them.

 

As if all that was not enough, EtherREGEN Gen2 will, for the first time (not in 'gen1' and not in any switch anywhere) incorporate a rather expensive, state-of-the-art ultra-low jitter sine>square wave buffer/logic converter.  Use of this part--at the 10MHz clock input--will significantly improve performance from sine-wave external reference clocks (versus the sine-wave driving the synthesizer directly).

This is great news because it is so much harder to get a good square wave into the EtherREGEN (most of the cheaper clocks offer awful square waves--so stay with the sine wave clocks; and even with a great square wave clock such as Mutec, you then have to have a really good cable and pay attention to impedance match).  See the bottom section of page 3 of our Clock Considerations paper for some discuss of all this.

So if you already enjoy an SQ bump from an external sine-wave clock with the first generation EtherREGEN, you are going to get an even bigger bump from that same clock when you use it with EtherREGEN Gen2! 

 

Lastly, I also mentioned somewhere previously that John is going to test running the Crystek clock through the aforementioned new sine>square buffer. Originally we designed it in just for improvement of external clocks, but it dawned upon us that there could be some technical benefit to running our stock clock through it as well.  So we will soon see/hear...

Thank you.

But, unfortunately, my mouth is now watering even more, while I await the arrival of the production Gen 2  !!!

[kennyb123]

On 11/13/2023 at 11:42 AM, kiwibirch said:

Makes you wonder if the price delta between these two clocks is worth the extra.

I found that upgrading my REF10 to SE120 made a bigger difference than adding the REF10 in the first place.  This clock provides a reference to both my DAC and the ER, and gains could be heard with both.  So I suspect the delta between those two clocks will justify the cost as well if there is the same relative difference in phase noise.

[russellbobby]

This thread really came alive.  
ok so the EtherRegen is powered by a Farad super three with their upgraded copper dc cable. 
Ac supplied by Puritan 156. Sotm dCBL Cat 7 connect to the Bricasti M3 
Why does the system sound considerably better when using the LHY OCK 2 if it measures quite a bit worse than the EtherRegen?  After looking at the graph I am going to reconfigure for sine wave and try that. From what I got from the white paper that a proper square wave while tighter on tolerances of cabling etc , sounds better than a sine wave config .

With the OCK 2 the layering is incredible, Vocals are textured and small inflections are brought to life. Bass is smooth and incredibly defined. Picking up items that are deep in the recordings that were never apparent . This is not from strained listening, rather casual while I shake my head as the sound improves as the BNC gets upgraded   From HT III copper and Silver to the Tubulus Concentus 
I disconnected the LHY just to make sure I wasn’t hearing things   It went back in the system real quick. 
The Personas have Be Tweeters and Midrange and are very transparent. 
This is my first foray into clocks but can definitely see the possibilities. 

[Superdad]

55 minutes ago, simon_pepper said:

There seems to be a unit with an integral PSU offered by Aune, which do have a declared specification chart, but probably not per unit.

https://www.aune-store.com/en/aune-sc1-audio-clock_110403_1212/

Very pretty casework and a modest price.  While the specified phase-noise performance is not much to get excited about (-100dBc/Hz @ 1Hz and -125dBc/Hz @10Hz), at least they are honest about it.

 

55 minutes ago, simon_pepper said:

50ohm output, so would need a Cybershaft Matching adaptor https://cybershaft.shop/products/50-ohm-matching-adapter as my EtherREGEN is a standard 75Ohm version.
@Superdad any thoughts?

All the inexpensive Asian clock boxes with both square and sine outputs we have measured have had terrible square waveforms (due to the primitive sine>square circuits they use), so for that clock I would probably stick to using its sine wave output.  And when you use sine wave clock, there is no need at all to match impedance of clock>cable>device.

So you can skip the impedance matching adapter.  

Would still advise use of the Mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+ filter--right at the input of the EtherREGEN.  [Won't be useful with EtherREGEN Gen2.]

[Superdad]

7 hours ago, russellbobby said:

Why does the system sound considerably better when using the LHY OCK 2 if it measures quite a bit worse than the EtherRegen?

 

That is not what was said.  It was that:

a) The Beatechnik/LHY website originally claimed wildly unrealistic (for the price) phase noise for both clocks (-110dBc/Hz @1Hz for OCK-1 and -115dBc/Hz for OCK-2, the latter being $5K Mutec REF10 territory).

After we and others measured them and called them out (we got just -91dBc/Hz @1Hz and -121dBc/Hz @10Hz with the OCK-1 that @Exocer loaned us), they removed all phase-noise claims from their web pages.

 

b) We have explained that -125dBc/Hz @ 10Hz is about the threshold where one can audibly begin to hear benefit from an external reference clock with the EtherREGEN versus our internal clock.

 

Your OCK-2 (with apparently much better power supply but same OCXO than the OCK-1) does, per Leo Bodnar's measurement plot (previous page), come in at about -123dBc/Hz @10Hz.  So it is reasonable for you to be hearing some modest improvement.

And given that you are running your EtherREGEN direct into your Bricasti DAC (Ethernet-input-equipped DAC owners get the most joy from EtherREGEN! dCS even bought a couple from us after clients raved.), it is not a surprise that you are very sensitive to clock improvement.

Yet until you try a clock with verified performance significantly better than -123dBc/Hz, you won't know what there is to be heard.  Get to -135dBc or -140dBc or better and then you will know where it might go. 

[Markus8]

@Superdad had a great description:

“Remember: A clock is just a highly accurate periodic voltage (either square or sine wave) with risetime/ramp which other chips use to trigger off of at some set voltage along that ramp. But a clock’s voltage is referenced to a zero-volt ground plane. If that ground plane bounces—even a tiny bit—it moves the ramp of the clock forward in time. THAT’S JITTER!“

So even the best clocks will perform quite poorly when it’s ground plane influenced - how to avoid this?

[russellbobby]

Thanks for explanation.  Can’t wait to move up the ladder. 

[JohnSwenson]

1 hour ago, Markus8 said:

@Superdad had a great description:

“Remember: A clock is just a highly accurate periodic voltage (either square or sine wave) with risetime/ramp which other chips use to trigger off of at some set voltage along that ramp. But a clock’s voltage is referenced to a zero-volt ground plane. If that ground plane bounces—even a tiny bit—it moves the ramp of the clock forward in time. THAT’S JITTER!“

So even the best clocks will perform quite poorly when it’s ground plane influenced - how to avoid this?

Two ways: clean up noise on ground plane and use differential signal. For a differential clock signal you have two wires, when one goes up the other goes down. The "trigger point" is not referenced to ground at all, it is when the voltage on the two wires cross each other. Thus eliminating ground plane issues. Of course many chips only have a single ended clock pin, thus making it impossible to use a differential clock directly. What we do in the ER is use differential signals to send the clock around the board with differential to single ended converters right next to the clock pin of each chip driven by a single ended clock. The is actually almost as good as a true differential clock input.

 

Understanding why this is the case takes a little more info on how this ground plane noise affects a clock. The issue occurs when there is a voltage difference between the ground pin of the source chip and the ground pin of the chip driven by the clock. If the two chips are far apart there is a pretty good chance that all the other stuff happening on the board can produce ground plane noise between the clock source and clock input. BUT if the source is a mm away from the input then there is a much lower chance that there will be significant voltage difference between the source and input. The only noise you will get between them is changing ground current from the differential to single ended converter, and because it has a differential input there is no contribution from other sources, it is just what the converter's output is responsible for. This is not as good as a true differential clock input on the chip, but it is WAY better than a single ended clock running around a board.

 

John S.

[AfterDark.]

18 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

That is not what was said.  It was that:

a) The Beatechnik/LHY website originally claimed wildly unrealistic (for the price) phase noise for both clocks (-110dBc/Hz @1Hz for OCK-1 and -115dBc/Hz for OCK-2, the latter being $5K Mutec REF10 territory).

After we and others measured them and called them out (we got just -91dBc/Hz @1Hz and -121dBc/Hz @10Hz with the OCK-1 that @Exocer loaned us), they removed all phase-noise claims from their web pages.

 

b) We have explained that -125dBc/Hz @ 10Hz is about the threshold where one can audibly begin to hear benefit from an external reference clock with the EtherREGEN versus our internal clock.

 

Your OCK-2 (with apparently much better power supply but same OCXO than the OCK-1) does, per Leo Bodnar's measurement plot (previous page), come in at about -123dBc/Hz @10Hz.  So it is reasonable for you to be hearing some modest improvement.

And given that you are running your EtherREGEN direct into your Bricasti DAC (Ethernet-input-equipped DAC owners get the most joy from EtherREGEN! dCS even bought a couple from us after clients raved.), it is not s surprise that you are very sensitive to clock improvement.

Yet until you try a clock with verified performance significantly better than -123dBc/Hz, you won't know what there is to be heard.  Get to -135dBc or -140dBc or better and then you will know where it might go. 

 

 

Hi! Alex,

 

We are delighted to offer trade in for LHY Clock to AfterDark. Giesemann clock, so Audiophiles can share the enjoyment or improvement with EtherREGEN. The Giesemann x EtherREGEN combo is significant upgrade when we received positive feedbacks and reviews from Stereotimes 2022. 

 

We are quite excited to hear that the latest EtherREGEN gen2 will optimized the clock sync chips to use Sine Wave OCXO clock. Thanks for the implementation efforts. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[Superdad]

FYI: Readers here may have some interest in a post I just made in the other thread.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38968-etherregen-the-long-development-thread-some-gen2-dev-pics-and-update-starting-on-page-92/?do=findComment&comment=1260880

[russellbobby]

Hope I am not breaking any rules 

The Mutec Nano is shipping

Got mine at Thomann music. They are located in Germany 

1799 plus 53.00 in shipping to Mich. Will have it on Monday. 
 

Happy Thanksgiving!!

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, russellbobby said:

Hope I am not breaking any rules 

The Mutec Nano is shipping

Got mine at Thomann music. They are located in Germany 

1799 plus 53.00 in shipping to Mich. Will have it on Monday.

 

Well you are not breaking any rules but Thomann Music might be.  I am sure that Mutec’s exclusive USA importer will be none too thrilled to hear that a German dealer is trans-shipping this hot new clock for 28% off the official $2,499 list price. 

But congrats to you on the excellent deal. Hope you enjoy it and your Thanksgiving holiday.

—Alex C.

 

[russellbobby]

I reached out to all the US guys I could. 
it was just a bonus getting it for this price. Just wanted to get one 

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, russellbobby said:

1799

What currency ?

[russellbobby]

USD