Objectivity without measurements

[mfsoa]

I was swapping power cords with the designer of my amp one day, as different cords delivered clearly audible changes in my system. My wife was listening casually nearby and was surprised at the difference - only she thought we were swapping amplifiers. I told her we weren't swapping amps and she said she was surprised how much of a difference swapping interconnects made. I told her we were not swapping interconnects but only the power cord to the amp and she walked away lol.  So, casual observer, no interest whatsoever in the outcome of the test, unaware of what was being changed in the system and heard power cord changes easily.

 

She can also easily tell me the difference between an original CD, one burned onto a silver disc and one onto a gold disc but that one is pretty easy.

 

She'll also let me know when I am not using the right driver for our computer speakers - I didn't hear it but she knew something was different.

 

Really guys, you've never had experiences like this? Like you had to place a long cheap cable in your system that you forgot about and then for some unknown reason your system sounds off, only to be restored when the correct cable is reinserted?

 

Maybe there is something more to this than we can measure. 

 

 

[fas42]

Yes, those who have no interest in whether a particular variation of a setup is supposed to make a difference, especially women, have no trouble in picking up that the character of the added distortion  - which will always be there to some degree, unless the playback chain is "perfect" - has altered ... listeners react not to what's on the recording, but rather to the artifacts that shouldn't be there.

[PYP]

28 minutes ago, mfsoa said:

Really guys, you've never had experiences like this? Like you had to place a long cheap cable in your system that you forgot about and then for some unknown reason your system sounds off, only to be restored when the correct cable is reinserted?

 

LOL, I have.  Many years ago I just had to have a power cord that was the flavor of the month.  Immediately after plugging in the new cord, my wife asked if I changed anything.  Days later, she asked if I liked the change (and I noticed she wasn't listening to our system as she had been).  I had to admit that I didn't and returned the pc.  Once the old pc was in place, she started to listen to music again.  That is just one of numerous examples.  Luckily, our listening preferences are the same:  natural/organic and like live music.  The recorded human voice can tell you about whether a given change is positive in less than one minute.  

[sandyk]

59 minutes ago, mfsoa said:

She can also easily tell me the difference between an original CD, one burned onto a silver disc and one onto a gold disc but that one is pretty easy.

 

 Many people have found this to be true, with discs such as MAM Gold sounding markedly better compared with the typical normal brand name Supermarket CD-Rs .

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

@Seraph please explain how the first post in a topic can be off-topic

[The Computer Audiophile]

17 minutes ago, hopkins said:

@Seraph please explain how the first post in a topic can be off-topic

He’s looking for measurements to backup his “off topic” vote. 

[MetalNuts]

On 2/23/2020 at 5:35 PM, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

Always!

Let's take months or years to test this instrument first, then we may know its reliability.

[alfe]

11 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Many people have found this to be true, with discs such as MAM Gold sounding markedly better compared with the typical normal brand name Supermarket CD-Rs .

 

You keep spreading this marketing BS , again some info about reflectivity:

https://www.edmundoptics.com/knowledge-center/application-notes/optics/metallic-mirror-coatings/

Performance is about the wavelength and silver have a better reflectivity!

Remember objective-fi.

ps: MAM discs are not gold but silicium alloy

[alfe]

12 hours ago, mfsoa said:

I was swapping power cords with the designer of my amp one day, as different cords delivered clearly audible changes in my system. My wife was listening casually nearby and was surprised at the difference - only she thought we were swapping amplifiers. I told her we weren't swapping amps and she said she was surprised how much of a difference swapping interconnects made. I told her we were not swapping interconnects but only the power cord to the amp and she walked away lol.  So, casual observer, no interest whatsoever in the outcome of the test, unaware of what was being changed in the system and heard power cord changes easily.

 

She can also easily tell me the difference between an original CD, one burned onto a silver disc and one onto a gold disc but that one is pretty easy.

 

She'll also let me know when I am not using the right driver for our computer speakers - I didn't hear it but she knew something was different.

 

Really guys, you've never had experiences like this? Like you had to place a long cheap cable in your system that you forgot about and then for some unknown reason your system sounds off, only to be restored when the correct cable is reinserted?

 

Maybe there is something more to this than we can measure. 

 

 

The wife is not a measurement tool.

[The Computer Audiophile]

35 minutes ago, alfe said:

 

You keep spreading this marketing BS , again some info about reflectivity:

https://www.edmundoptics.com/knowledge-center/application-notes/optics/metallic-mirror-coatings/

Performance is about the wavelength and silver have a better reflectivity!

Remember objective-fi.

ps: MAM discs are not gold but silicium alloy

That page you linked to was full of marketing. It may be better to point out the appropriate stuff rather than direct us to several thousand words. 

[alfe]

11 hours ago, PYP said:

 

LOL, I have.  Many years ago I just had to have a power cord that was the flavor of the month.  Immediately after plugging in the new cord, my wife asked if I changed anything.  Days later, she asked if I liked the change (and I noticed she wasn't listening to our system as she had been).  I had to admit that I didn't and returned the pc.  Once the old pc was in place, she started to listen to music again.  That is just one of numerous examples.  Luckily, our listening preferences are the same:  natural/organic and like live music.  The recorded human voice can tell you about whether a given change is positive in less than one minute.  

Perfect demonstration of objectivity without measurement!

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, alfe said:

Perfect demonstration of objectivity without measurement!

You’re joking right?

[alfe]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That page you linked to was full of marketing. It may be better to point out the appropriate stuff rather than direct us to several thousand words. 

the graphs are still valid  and silver have the best reflectivity from 500nm to 800nm.

[alfe]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You’re joking right?

Objectivist humour.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

11 minutes ago, alfe said:

Objectivist humour.

Hmmm....maybe more hubris than humour

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

27 minutes ago, alfe said:

The wife is not a measurement tool.

Well I think we should let this one pass...😉

[sandyk]

Quote

You keep spreading this marketing BS - Alfe

 

Al

 Sorry, but this isn't marketing bullshit.

 I am referring here to what the discs are known as, NOT how they are made, and confirming what the other poster said about different types of discs sounding audibly different, just like Blu Spec do as another example.

 In the attached, Martin Colloms compared both generic Supermarket brand name CD-Rs and MAM " Gold " CD-Rs with exactly the same contents that I  sent him.

Quite a bit of the listening was performed under NON SIGHTED conditions in July 2016.

 

Alex

 

Quote

"not auditioned  for all tracks  , but randomly selected
scores in % 

1.  cd1gold 

a Dylan 1,2     2 clearer, firmer bass line, cleaner transients   +20%
7 ,8       7 better , more communicative, firmer definition with better timing by  15%
9, 10    10   better, clearer crisper better focus and staging  +18%

2.  cd1 silver  

1,2         2 better, but by a less  margin  8%
7,8          7 better           but also less  8%
etc

3.  Classical Gold  ( silver results  in brackets )

Mahler  1,2 :    2 is substantially, better, by  35%,  improved decay tails   percussion pitch and reverb
9, 10  'lightning'  9  sounds  40% better than 10, with crisper bass 'thunder' , more drive and impact

4. Classical  silver results  9 better than 10 , but   differences less marked now  say 20%

5. Pop   Gold CD
  1, 2 Ascent  :  2 better by 20 %,   more attack and reverb , better dynamics
  7,8 : 7 beats 8  slightly better dynamics , poor track  maybe 10% gain

My wife could hear the differences very easily too , I did a few blind comparisons and she had no problem scoring and describing subjective differences
 had things to do at this juncture.......................
thanks for arranging the trial,  should I send the discs back for others to test?

BTW great sounds from the 'good' tracks on the gold discs

You will let me know the basis for the differences....
Kind regards
  Martin

 

 

[mfsoa]

Yes, it was the MAM-A Gold discs I was playing with. 

 

Thank you for letting the subjectivist know that they aren't actually made of gold. Cause, ya' know, it says gold on the box so of course we all trusted the manufacturer.  I have been stockpiling them, thinking that they were really solid gold. OMG thank you for saving me from spending money based on manufacturers false claims!!!  Wow it worked for once!! 

[alfe]

25 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Al

 Sorry, but this isn't marketing bullshit.

 I am referring here to what the discs are known as, NOT how they are made, and confirming what the other poster said about different types of discs sounding audibly different, just like Blu Spec do as another example.

 In the attached, Martin Colloms compared both generic Supermarket brand name CD-Rs and MAM " Gold " CD-Rs with exactly the same contents that I  sent him.

Quite a bit of the listening was performed under NON SIGHTED conditions in July 2016.

 

Alex

 

 

The quality depends on the stamper usage, the quality of the groove, the birefringence, the flatness of the substrate, the dye....not gold vs silver.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, alfe said:

the graphs are still valid  and silver have the best reflectivity from 500nm to 800nm.

Is reflectivity what’s being touted as the reason for sonic differences and the greater reflectivity be better sonically?

[sandyk]

29 minutes ago, alfe said:

The quality depends on the stamper usage, the quality of the groove, the birefringence, the flatness of the substrate, the dye....not gold vs silver.

 

 I made no claims about what the discs were made of , just what they are known as.

In this case , the reflective layer is made of 24K Gold

 

https://www.american-digital.com/support/details/mam-a_gold_cd-r.asp

[alfe]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Is reflectivity what’s being touted as the reason for sonic differences and the greater reflectivity be better sonically?

Sonically I will put the flatness of the substrate first.

Then birefringence

Then stamper groove

 

.

[pkane2001]

Objective findings must be repeatable and reproducible by others. What I find when my wife is in the kitchen and I switch some random component, is that she invariably yells down into the basement: CAN YOU PLEASE TURN THAT NOISE DOWN??!??!

 

So, no, while the wife measuring device may be self-consistent, it is not very repeatable, I'm afraid.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, alfe said:

Sonically I will put the flatness of the substrate first.

Then birefringence

Then stamper groove

 

.

Back to my question please. 
 

You directed us to a bunch of marketing material with graphs about reflectivity. 
 

1. Did someone suggest that reflectivity is the reason for sonic differences?

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

11 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Objective findings must be repeatable and reproducible by others. What I find when my wife is in the kitchen and I switch some random component, is that she invariably yells down into the basement: CAN YOU PLEASE TURN THAT NOISE DOWN??!??!

 

So, no, while the wife measuring device may be self-consistent, it is not very repeatable, I'm afraid.

 

 

All this tells me objectively speaking is that your wife banishes you to the basement and screams at you to be quiet !🙄😁