Qhwoeprktiyns Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 A very simple way to have an "objective" point of view about the effect of component changes in a system is to simply test those changes with someone who has no interest in audio systems. If they cannot hear a marked difference (repatedly) then there probably is no difference (or very little). Reality can be sobering... Seraph 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Archimago Posted February 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2020 Yeah, agree, that's one way to do it. Realize however that strictly speaking, in this situation, you are actually "measuring" the change using this person as your "instrument". The question is how accurate is this "instrument" 🤔? Gotta say, I hate it though when I change a cable and my wife or kid from the other room while cooking, doing homework, or watching YouTube videos says to me "Hey, what did you do!? Veils lifted!" forces me to write about it. 🤣 pkane2001, clipper, skikirkwood and 4 others 7 Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Archimago said: The question is how accurate is this "instrument" 🤔? Always! Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
John Dyson Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 15 hours ago, Archimago said: Yeah, agree, that's one way to do it. Realize however that strictly speaking, in this situation, you are actually "measuring" the change using this person as your "instrument". The question is how accurate is this "instrument" 🤔? Gotta say, I hate it though when I change a cable and my wife or kid from the other room while cooking, doing homework, or watching YouTube videos says to me "Hey, what did you do!? Veils lifted!" forces me to write about it. 🤣 If the unit catches on fire, or the program crashes, then it fails. Didn't need a measurement device... Of course, needed to make a call to the fire department. John Link to comment
Popular Post jabbr Posted February 23, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2020 19 hours ago, hopkins said: A very simple way to have an "objective" point of view about the effect of component changes in a system is to simply test those changes with someone who has no interest in audio systems. If they cannot hear a marked difference (repatedly) then there probably is no difference (or very little). Reality can be sobering... I get ... “honey since you’ve got free time, here’s a list of things I need you to do...” 😂 lucretius, fas42 and Audiophile Neuroscience 3 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
monteverdi Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 How well our senses can differentiate is a matter of training. That applies to vision, sound and taste. Harman Research (Toole and Olive) used extensive blind listening test to establish objective evaluation of loudspeakers. It is clear that trained listeners give more reliable information than untrained. If someone can not hear a sound difference but other do under blind conditions it would indicate lack of auditory training (or auditory deficiency). Many can not differentiate wines whereas persons who care about wine can. Speedskater 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Allan F Posted February 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2020 23 hours ago, Archimago said: Gotta say, I hate it though when I change a cable and my wife or kid from the other room while cooking, doing homework, or watching YouTube videos says to me "Hey, what did you do!? Veils lifted!" forces me to write about it. 🤣 And it can't be blamed on expectation bias. sandyk and Audiophile Neuroscience 1 1 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
clipper Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 On 2/22/2020 at 9:44 PM, Archimago said: Gotta say, I hate it though when I change a cable and my wife or kid from the other room while cooking, doing homework, or watching YouTube videos says to me "Hey, what did you do!? Veils lifted!" forces me to write about it. 🤣 Although sometimes I expect the veils to be lifted, and they’re not. Like last week, when I when I routed my 12-NIC team, each member named for one of Santa’s reindeer, through my overclocked Speak & Spell, then out to the DAC with USB. I cut the cables with hedge clippers, but traceroutes to the North Pole showed the same number of hops as before, and everything still sounded the same. So much for expectation bias. 🤣 Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 1 hour ago, monteverdi said: How well our senses can differentiate is a matter of training. That applies to vision, sound and taste. Harman Research (Toole and Olive) used extensive blind listening test to establish objective evaluation of loudspeakers. It is clear that trained listeners give more reliable information than untrained. Toole seemed to find that experienced listeners had less overall variation in their judgements and tend to differentiate their ratings more strongly compared to untrained listeners, but the averaged results for each group was the same.IOW their was overall agreement (concordance) between the two groups but differences in what Toole called kind. One would expect less experienced listeners to be required to get a statistically significant result. "Inexperienced listeners, and listeners with deteriorated hearing exhibited higher variations in their judgments , for different reasons obviously. The opinions of the inexperienced youths when averaged were not different from those of selected and trained listeners" Speedskater 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Popular Post Qhwoeprktiyns Posted February 24, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2020 If differences can only be perceived by trained listeners than chances are they are subtle and not significant... lucretius, sandyk and Teresa 1 1 1 Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 26 minutes ago, hopkins said: If differences can only be perceived by trained listeners than chances are they are subtle and not significant... In the Toole example, as I understand it, both groups heard differences and chose similarly. The trained group were just better at it (read more consistent and more definitive). In the case where things can only be perceived with training I believe there can be large differences once you learn where and how to look/listen. Perception is more than just registration of a sensory stimulus in the cortex. Thats a big topic..... Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Popular Post STC Posted February 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2020 Listening music for recreation is not about the ability to hear differences. It is about the sound that moves you. And if possible, to give you the experience of being there. For most, the former is good enough. daverich4, Teresa and fas42 3 ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Popular Post alfe Posted February 24, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2020 Objectivity without measurement, is the equivalent to subjectivity with measurement? sandyk, Audiophile Neuroscience and andrewinukm 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Qhwoeprktiyns Posted February 24, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, STC said: Listening music for recreation is not about the ability to hear differences. It is about the sound that moves you. And if possible, to give you the experience of being there. For most, the former is good enough. Funny, the better my system gets the more i am moved by the music. Or at least, i do not get distracted by the system... Teresa, sandyk, Audiophile Neuroscience and 1 other 1 1 2 Link to comment
STC Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Audiophiles make up less than 1% of music lovers. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 15 minutes ago, STC said: Audiophiles make up less than 1% of music lovers. That does not mean that "non audiophiles" cannot appreciate a good system. It probably means that good systems are rare, and that most expensive audio equipment has little added value. It is surprisingly easy to make a "non musical" system with expensive audiophile equipment. fas42 1 Link to comment
STC Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 22 minutes ago, hopkins said: That does not mean that "non audiophiles" cannot appreciate a good system. It probably means that good systems are rare, and that most expensive audio equipment has little added value. It is surprisingly easy to make a "non musical" system with expensive audiophile equipment. Doesn't mean they will have the best equipment for high fidelity. My better half got a very large family and in the business of providing sound solution . Not even one of them got a hifi system at home. They appreciate the music. And whenever they drop by for visits they still like to hear the fav songs in my system. But they just do not have the interest nor time or the need to setup a high end system. The younger generation do pay big bucks for good sound system for their car audio though. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 1 hour ago, hopkins said: That [Audiophiles make up less than 1% of music lovers] does not mean that "non audiophiles" cannot appreciate a good system. Totally agree 1 hour ago, hopkins said: It [Audiophiles make up less than 1% of music lovers] probably means that good systems are rare, This assumes that only audiophiles have good systems. 1 hour ago, hopkins said: and that most expensive audio equipment has little added value. IMO the assertion (right or wrong) of "most expensive audio equipment has little added value" does not follow from "Audiophiles make up less than 1% of music lovers" 1 hour ago, hopkins said: It is surprisingly easy to make a "non musical" system with expensive audiophile equipment. as it is with cheap systems. Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Superdad Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 On 2/23/2020 at 11:53 PM, STC said: Audiophiles make up less than 1% of music lovers. How did you measure that? daverich4 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
jabbr Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 On 2/24/2020 at 2:49 AM, alfe said: Objectivity without measurement, is the equivalent to subjectivity with measurement? Theoretical physics … and behavioral psychology 😝 andrewinukm 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Popular Post PYP Posted February 25, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2020 On 2/22/2020 at 5:47 PM, hopkins said: A very simple way to have an "objective" point of view about the effect of component changes in a system is to simply test those changes with someone who has no interest in audio systems. That would be my wife. Has no interest in equipment and certainly doesn't want to encourage further purchases. But I can always tell her opinion of the sound: "Did you change something?" = very bad (component inevitably gets returned); "Could you lower the volume, please?" = bad change; "That is a lovely song, could you turn that up?" = very good (component stays in place). I once asked her to do a blind test with speaker cables. She absolutely hated it, but quickly chose the one that I preferred too. Last time we did the blind test. I just wait for her casual comments now. I'm not claiming scientific certainty here, just a happy wife (and you know the saying about that). Luckily, our preferences are very close and the mutual aim is to forget the gear and enjoy the music, together and alone (my listening sessions are at a higher volume ). When I installed a diffuser, she liked the look of it so that was a good first step. Later, she really enjoyed the music. When I told here I was going to paint the diffuser to match the room, she said: "Will that change the sound? If so, don't do it." She is a keeper. DuckToller, RickyV, 4est and 1 other 2 1 1 Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
Popular Post alfe Posted February 25, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 hour ago, jabbr said: Theoretical physics … and behavioral psychology 😝 One behaviorist to another after lovemaking: "Darling, that was wonderful for you. How was it for me?" sandyk, RickyV, Audiophile Neuroscience and 4 others 7 Link to comment
STC Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 8 hours ago, Superdad said: How did you measure that? Probably less than that. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Popular Post andrewinukm Posted April 15, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 15, 2020 I have a "crystal" tweak that supposedly adds "depth" and "musical immersion" in my setup: just a small button sized thingy blutac'ed to the middle of front wall. I've repeated this test many many times over the years with friends & family not into high end audio (but music lovers), as well as with fellow audiophools audiophiles: (1) they listen to my system in its usual configuration, which means tweak is attached, but doesn't notice it as it's quite small and inconspicuous. (2) Then it is removed (I don't tell them what it does. I just pause the music, walk to the wall and remove it, then continue to let them enjoy the music). (3) Finally putting it back (as above, I simply walk to the wall, put the tweak back, and replay the song again). Basically A-B-A testing. Almost all heard a difference, and described the 'sound of the tweak' in similar ways. At stage (2), most would ask what happened and described that the sound 'flattened', 'losing depth'. I do this test to justify the tweaks I use, if others can't hear it, I'm most likely crazy/placebo/confirmation bias/expectation bias/bias towards biases/bias against biases, and these tweaks will be sold. *P.S. I have no idea why some tweaks work, I know a million objective reasons why it shouldn't work, no need for another scientist to claim confirmation bias, placebo, etc. I'm trained in science as well, but have given up trying to explain or find scientific explanation for tweaks like this. Teresa and jabbr 1 1 Link to comment
alfe Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 Pavlov is sitting at a bar, when all of sudden the phone rings... -Allo...shit I forgot to feed the dogs. sandyk 1 Link to comment
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