The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[Rsbrsvp]

10 hours ago, PYP said:

Might as well go for the record!   Seems you have clock outputs remaining for the 3rd too (why do I feel like the person who is saying:  Yes, jump off that building).  

 

I was very surprised by the contribution of the second eR, but just as with your setup (before you added the router) my upstream is rather polluted.  That is my working theory at the moment.  

I read a repot that better power supply and OM seem to make a more substantial difference than second ER.  For those with experience, please comment if you agree.

[Rsbrsvp]

For people who have two etherregens and OM, which makes a bigger difference, second etherregen or OM or about the same?

[Rsbrsvp]

I have a technical question on how and when the etherregen effects sonics.

 

When I stream music from Amazon or Qobuz, it is clear before my eyes that the music is not streaming directly to my ears. When I play a song,  the music is being placed in the RAM of my computer and then being played from there.  I see the song loading into my RAM with the visual line in my Amazon or Audrivana player.  So first question is why would the quality of streaming or a switch make a difference if anyway the music is playing direct from my computers RAM?  I assume the quality of the music being loaded into the RAM is better when using a switch, better power supply, etc.  Please confirm.

 

Now, both Amazon and Qobuz allow me to download their streaming music onto my hard SSD in my fanless PC.  To my ears, this always sounds better.  The sound is fuller, crisper, just noticeably better.  Of course, once downloaded I do not need any internet connection at all as the music is playing off my hard drive and I'm pretty sure once again it is going into RAM beforehand. 

 

By the way, even playing lower quality Apple AAC256 music off my iPad- when streamed vs downloading the music to the HD of the iPad and then playing from the HD of the iPad,- the download sounds noticeably better than the direct stream.

 

Two questions.

 

1.  Why is playing downloaded music from Amazon and Qobuz sounding noticeably better than streaming?  Perhaps it is not better, but just different and my ears prefer the downloaded signature.  But even then, I ask, why is it clearly so different?

 

2.  Is my ethernet connection and etherregen effecting the quality of that download file as well or does it have no effect on it?

 

I would appreciate a simple and as non-technical explanation as possible.  I would love an explanation from the Uptone gang...

[Rsbrsvp]

I have a mutec Ref10 SE-120 connected to my Etherregen and a superb Power supply.  It does help a lot.

 

Still, playing downloaded music from my SSD is better than streaming direct.

 

Why?  And is that download quality being effected by the switch, PS, and Mutec clock?

[Rsbrsvp]

I did not see in this article the idea of SSD downloaded music vs direct streaming.  The author did mention he uses a NAS so that the music passes the etherregen but I'm not sure that music downloaded to my SSD also did not get effected when I did the download as the stream passed the etherregen at the point of download before being stored on my SSD..

[Rsbrsvp]

I really want the Uptone experts to chime in on this.....

 

Anyone on this forum can do a simple experiment just to get started.   Download a song from your streaming service to your PC, or iPad to your Hard drive and listen.  Then remove the download and listen to it streamed directly to your computer.  Sounds very different.

 

Question- is what is going on to cause this?

[Rsbrsvp]

What is FBA?

[Rsbrsvp]

If I download my music on a separate computer, how do I rout it to my endpoint- perhaps by way of etherregen?

 

Do I need airplay or chromecast or is there another option?

[Rsbrsvp]

Has anyone compared streaming from router to etheregen to pc VS NAS by way of router to etherregen and then to PC?

 

Does NAS sourced streaming sound better than direct streaming or is NAS just a convenience or alternative storage medium?

[Rsbrsvp]

The Etherregen does indeed do a fantastic job without external clock or upgraded PS, but with them, especially the upgraded PS, it is a substantial improvement.  I am glad Uptone did not develop an etherregen with built in high end PS and OXCO because this way it is substantially less expensive, and yet I can add my own PS and OXCO if and when I choose.

 

I do want to mention that to my ears, to get the best out of the etherregen for those who can afford, not only is a upgraded PS and OXCO of benefit but I have found that streaming music from a NAS or a separate NUC (with a SSD) connected to the A side of my etherregen REALLY improved sonics over streaming direct from my music provider.

 

I have always found that locally stored music on my SSD of my fanless PC always sounded preferable than when streamed from my provider, yet I have also found the etherregen used for streaming to be of enormous benefit. So I finally combined both ideas and attached a fanless NUC with  SSD to my etherregen side A to act as a NAS.   I download all amazon and Qobuz music to this NUC and using my control PC which is connected to the B side of the etherregen I retrieve the file from the NUC.  This way I get the advantage of SSD playback and also the advantage of the etherregen cleaning up the stream from the SSD of the NUC before it arrives at my endpoint.  I guess this is a simple idea that most of you already employ, but I Just figured it out recently by way of experimentation.

 

I have found downloaded music from my streaming service when filtered by the etherregen to be absolutely fabulous and in fact, streaming from a NAS to my ears provides a similar level improvement to a high quality upgraded PS for the etherregen.

[Rsbrsvp]

I have a Ref 10 SE-120 and it definitely improves sound.  I agree that the PS is more important.

 

I must admit that the improvement when using my Mutec OXCO only on the etherregen is not huge; call it more than subtle, but not much more than that.

 

However my Mutec is also hooked up to my DAC, DDC, SOTM TX-USB ULTRA, and soon a second etherregen.  The only extra expense in hooking up the Mutec to multiple components is an inexpensive BNC digital cable.

 

The combined effect of multiple connections is much more substantial.

 

Forgive me for being so straightforward, but no normal person is going to buy a $4,000 or more OXCO just for an etherregen. Such a person would be crazy.  However- once the connection is made to 4-5 devices within the same system, the worth of the Mutec is increased.  It is hard to define the TOTAL value of the Mutec in %, but the overall result is noticeably fuller sound, much better bass, much more focused sound, much better imaging and more transparent sound.   $4000 is still a lot of money, but if you want the best it costs. 

[Rsbrsvp]

By the way, even though the combined effect of attaching the Ref10 SE-120 to multiple components is much more substantial than attaching it to just one component, I still IMHO think it is WAY WAY overpriced relative to the gain.

 

I would place it as the worst investment in my system if I measure cost/benefit ratio.  Again, please do not misunderstand.  It does improve sound moderately IMHO. It is a appreciable but not huge impact when connected to multiple components.  I am only saying that IMHO the increase is to minimal relative to the cost.

 

I have components that made as much of a difference as the REF10 which cost a small % the cost of the mutec..

 

This post may not be popular because there is a need out there by audiophile fanatics to praise everything.  However, I have the right to express my true feelings and I'm getting pretty disgusted with the herd mentality.

 

By the way, IMHO the etherregen with no PS and no OXCO improved the sound of my system more than the REF10 for around 8 times less price.  Yes, my PS and REF10 SE-120 made the etherregen noticeably better (of which the PS is responsible for most of the gain), but etherregen only vs mutec only, cost no object, the etherregen had a larger effect.  In terms of cost/benefit, the etherregen is a giant killer.

 

By the way, I respectfully disagree with uptone that the etherregen without external PS is at 90% of benefit.  I would say perhaps 60%- 70%.  The external PS has a pretty big effect on the etherregen.  The clock, a bit more.  I respect uptones right to express their view of what they hear on the etherregen with and without PS, but my ears are my ears and although the etherregen by itself is a world class product, if you can afford a PS get one.   I just bought a Teddy Pardo PS here in Israel for around $400 and it had a VERY BIG impact on the etherregen IMHO..

 

 

[Rsbrsvp]

CONCLUSION ACCORDING TO THE MAJORITY OF US  (I think; based on what I have seen in numerous threads by  numerous participants)

 

1. The etherregen is a world-class product BY ITSELF.  Cost/benefit ratio is fantastic!!!  We thank Upton for their invention....

2.  It nevertheless benefits A LOT from external PS and to differing degrees from an external OXCO. (we don't necessarily agree with uptone on this issue, but we love them anyway).

 

ONWARDS!!!!!!!

[Rsbrsvp]

39 minutes ago, sgb said:

My problem with this answer is how you can make an estimate when you don't have listened to your EtherREGEN with an external clock.

That would be as stupid as if I would say that  EtherREGEN maybee would benefit 10% but I have not personally listened to EtherREGEN.

 

The EtherREGEN is an fantastic product as we all agree to. 

My dear friends,  this is a good question....  However it could be answered that Alex is basing his conclusion on feedback he has from others.

 

But the answer in my book goes much further.  It is that VERY LITTLE of any of this audiophile stuff is the Truth.  It is basically a bunch of scattered opinions, and a lot of marketing.

 

However, the sponsors are in my opinion innocent....  They have a business to promote, and have every right to do so; and we follow along and patriciate as for some reason we enjoy the ability to express ourselves and perhaps to be heard.

 

As long as we remain interested, why should anyone get in the way.  This is simply a function of market conditions...

 

Perhaps I deserve one of those (this is off topic) badges for this post.  I believe I have earned it..

 

 

[Rsbrsvp]

31 minutes ago, sgb said:

If that would be the case, it would mean that 9 of 10 that have tried EtherREGEN with an external clock did not hear any difference with the external clock. 🤨

 

2 minutes ago, Mops911 said:

Haha, embarrassing ;-) yeah, my orthography, even in my mother tongue of German is that of an 8 year old ;-)

 

Or that Ale trusts some  ears more  than others.

 

The key for ANY good developer is having a set of way above average ears and b) he knows who's other ears to trust if any (and who's not).

 

Also, different people have different priorities aka taste with music systems. How comes that some people spend big bucks on Wilson e.al. and I would not put them up if given for free.

 

The audio world very much proves the point "Dont follow the masses, the m is often silent" (no offense, author includes himself to be part of masses ;-))

 

So while its great to have a lively discussion and that @MartinT for example started this great clock threat (where the goal was to improve something by adding another thing which costs 20% of the initial thing), it is ultimately hard to know who's ear and who's taste brings MY audio journey further. Hence I fall back on ears I trust ;-)

 

And hence the conclusion is for me clearly that a clock is the very last upgrade if I even bother....just not a good value.

 

Like I said, a bunch of scattered opinions....

[Rsbrsvp]

While we are talking about value, not all Power supplies are a great value either.  After all the hype on the Paul Hynes SR-7T, THE BEST AUDIOPHILE PS IN THE WORLD, I bought one.

 

Honestly, there must be something wrong with my ears.  When attached to my tx-usb ultra and etherregen it sounded excellent IMHO, but not much better than my Teddy Pardo, at 1/6 the cost, 1/6th the size, 1/6th the weight, and the Teddy Pardo was delivered to me within days of ordering it instead of months.

 

I sold my SR-7T.  I am happy to have 95% of the Paul Hynes SR-7T sonic benefits for 1/6 the price.  That was a HUGE mistake on my part but hopefully a lesson learned.  

 

 

[Rsbrsvp]

8 minutes ago, agladstone said:

How do you think that DX system differs from the other Medical Ethernet Isolators like the Baaske, etc or are they essentially doing the same thing? 
I was initially using one of the Baaske medical Ethernet isolators before the EtherRegen, but recently removed it because I’m still confused about what they actually do? 

Seems like the DX is a EMI filter.   I guess if the etherregen also filters EMI than the DX is not necessary.

 

We need Uptone to tell us if the etherregen is already doing this job.

[Rsbrsvp]

45 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

I have looked at a Baaske, it is a transformer with a bandwidth just high enough to pass 100M or 1G signals. Note the actual symbol rate of 100M and 1G is exactly the same.

 

All standard Ethernet interfaces already contain a transformer, so are ALREADY galvanically isolated. The difference is that the Baaske transformer is specifically rated for some very high voltage (I don't remember the actual number but it is probably something like 5000 volts). The standard transformers are not tested to meet a specific high voltage.

 

The frequency roll off just above what is necessary to pass the signal can help cut down on very high frequency noise that might get picked up on a cable, BUT it also degrades the signal because it chops off the harmonics necessary to produce nice square waves.

 

Both standard transformers and the Baaske behave exactly the same in regards to leakage current: blocking low impedance and passing high impedance.

 

The whole "medical" part is just that for the Baaske every one is tested to make sure it can withstand the high voltage specs. The standards ones are not individually tested. The Baaske transformer is physically larger in order to have the thicker insulation necessary to meet the high voltage test, but this cuts down on the bandwidth. The standard transformers almost all have higher bandwidth.

 

The "medical" part is there to protect humans connected to diagnostic equipment that are connected to Ethernet, so that if something bizarre happens and the cable gets some very high voltage applied to it it won't make it to the electrodes connected to a patient. Standard Ethernet transformers generally do not have to meet this requirement.

 

So what happens inside the ER in this regard? The ER has very expensive Ethernet transformers, they are NOT medical rated (very few audiophiles run the output of an ER into electrodes connected directly to their bodies) but they are very high bandwidth designed to preserve the signal integrity of signals passing through them. They also have very good common mode rejection.

 

Something like the Baaske MAY have an advantage in some cases where the lower bandwidth helps to reduce some noise on the signals, but you have to trade that off with what happens because of the degraded signal integrity. In some cases it may make a small improvement, in others it will make no difference and in others it may degrade things a little.

 

On the B side of the ER the signal coming out is already extremely clean  so the only thing a Baaske does is degrade the signal, thus the recommendation to never use it on the B side side. (This is assuming the B side is connected to the  audio equipment).

 

I have only looked at the Baaske not any of the others, some may be similar, some may be different, I don't know.

 

John S.

 

THANK YOU.   

[Rsbrsvp]

4 hours ago, One and a half said:

 

 

As @JohnSwenson replied, the Baaske 'filter' is a transformer with high voltage capabilities. The transformer is a block for common mode noise, that noise of course is frequency dependent of the origin and transmission paths. There's only so much than can be crammed onto a Baaske due to its size, not that it is totally useless, it can block the noise, and also prevent a surge in HV to the receiver. If you have a look at the Wurth filters, each type can attenuate different frequencies, so the one filter won't do. How the common mode choke works is described here. 

 

How the DX ISO Plus filter works is a broadband filter, from say 1-2MHz to above 30MHz. Frequencies above 30MHz are conducted through wire, higher frequencies cannot, and are picked up by an antenna, capacitively usually with the receiver, so it's more an immune design issue on the receiver side. In deciding between a Gigafoil filter and the DX was of cost and aesthetics. The Gigafoil is a horrible case, couldn't live with it, the price for a 10 pack is a third the cost of a Gigafoil and can be placed at several points in the chain, and the GHz filtering is nice, but those frequencies don't travel through wires, so a little pointless. 

 

@LewinskiH01, please follow the link in my signature where the DX ISO Plus filter is installed. For fun, I took the EtherRegen out of circuit and played Diana Kraal "The girl in the other Room" again to compare. Diana's 'esses' turned into 'sh'. The solo guitar in the intro was now over the left speaker only rather than blending from the 10 deg to the left speaker. There was now no depth, Diana's vocals was on top of the solo guitar, and cymbals were buried, was unlistenable.

 

The DX ISO Plus works complementary to the EtherRegen's abilities with an advantage to place the filter where it's effective really anywhere in the network at the source of the noise, like a router or regular type switch.

 

 

 

 

Thank you so much.

 

Based on your and John Swnesons replies, I have ordered only two of the DX units to test between my router and my OM deluxe which sits right before my ER.   Inexpensive enough to test.  I doubt that I wont get $50.00 of benefit, but if I don't, it would be far from the worst investment I have ever made.....

 

I appreciate answers from technically capable people like you and John, as I am very much NOT technically knowledgeable..

[Rsbrsvp]

My friends,

 

We will read many reports that there are super switches like the  Innuos, or Jcat, or S100, etc.  Pretty much every report claims they are somewhat superior to the ER.  The most recent, quoted above says that even the ER with a good PS is not up to the Innous.

 

I believe however that this analysis is perhaps somewhat unfair.

 

Has a comparison of these super switches been made to a OM deluxe, and two ER's all with superb Power supplies?  Many confirmed reports claim adding an OM and another ER all with good PS's is a substantial upgrade to one ER with one good PS.

 

My three Teddy Pardo Power supplies along with OM, along with  two ER's (which I have not bought the second one yet) is approximately the cost of one Innous.  It is much cheaper than a Jcat switch.   For that comparison, to equalize the price ratio, I can add a great OXCO to both ER's and maybe even a third ER.

 

I do not know if my OM, double ER, triple Teddy Pardo will beat the Jcat or Innous, but until the comparison is made fair in terms of financial layout, it is meaningless to me.  Fair comparisons involve similar financial layout.  Obviously a Mercedes is better than a Ford.  It cost three times the price.  Lets be fair my friends...

 

By the way, as mentioned earlier, in my personal circumstances,  I already own a Mutec R10 se-120 which I have connected to multiple components in my system, so my super clock is already owned.  Why pay for another one?

 

 

[Rsbrsvp]

Regarding the one box issue, go to aliexpress and buy a nice metal case for $25.00 and put all your ER's, PS.s and OM inside one covered chasis.

[Rsbrsvp]

1 minute ago, keler said:

I am not saying that you can’t have a better sound with the ER/ Lps and clock vs the Innuos.  But the cost will be similar and you will have a lot of boxes and running cables.  I can just report that the Innuos is better, for me, vs the ER/ high quality ps.  Perhaps if adding the Afterdark clock ( 800 dollars) with a ps , you can have the same level of sound.  But personally I didn’t want to have all these boxes and cables.   The Innuos fit in my audio rack elegantly.

I had the Teddy Pardo before. For me it’s on the level of the lps 1.2.  Not JS2, MCRU pinnacle or Sean Jacobs DC3.  If you want the level of the Innuos PhoenixNet, you will have to buy the ER, Sean Jacobs DC3 2 rails with mundorph capacitors, or Paul Hynes SR7, and the Afterdark, and a good quality power cord to the ps:  total cost :  at minimum the price of the Innuos.

I hear.......

 

Again, I must have hearing problems, but I bought a Paul Hynes SR-7T and did not find much improvement at all over the Teddy Pardo at all.  But I respect your opinion....

 

Regarding the many box approach- I agree it is not lovely, but it does allow one to build up slowly.

 

If in theory dollar for dollar the Innous and ER x 2 plus OM plus three power supplies were around equal sonically and equal in cost, I agree- go with the less boxes approach IF you have the money to upfront.  Seems reasonable.

 

I do not argue with your points.  I just want the comparison top be financially on even ground....

[Rsbrsvp]

Wow- I was wrong.  I see the Innous is around $3,600.

 

ER is $670 with shipping X 2.  OM around $335.  My Teddy Pardos tripple is $800.  I still have around a thousand dollars to upgrade to get equal grounding with the Innous.

 

I could get a third ER or less expensive OXCO in my setup to equal costs or perhaps a better PS..

 

Again- I realize this is the more messy way to go, but it is an option.........

[Rsbrsvp]

Please forgive me for the question if this has been covered:

 

Does the ER need to be on 24/7 to sound its best or is a one or two hour warm up enough?

 

It gets so hot, I want to extend it's life so I prefer to turn it on only when necessary.

 

I thought at least to turn it on in the early afternoon and off at night before bed.  I listen to music in the evening....  That would allow a 4-5 hour warm-up time.

[Rsbrsvp]

23 minutes ago, keler said:

I had the ER for 1 year, left on 24/24, without any issues.   I had a lot of air around it.

i wanted recently to buy the Afterdark, but it needs another ps too.  With a ps of the same quality as mine, the total cost of ER/MCRU / Afterdark / MCRU is even more expensive than the PhoenixNet.

i finally got the Innuos.

Good move.  I already have a mutec Ref10 se-120 so investment for me is only in PS and etherregen.  If I did not have the Ref10, and did not want a clock for four other components in my system, I would do what you did.

A I mentioned before, the Ref10 is a ridiculous purchase if you do not use it on many components, but if you do, you do not need all your other equipment to have expensive clocks built in.