EtherREGEN: Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions thread

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, Bernstein said:

Are the connected components isolated from each others ground? I asked Keces and they stated, that the outputs are fully floating/isolated from each other and the mains ground. Is that true? @Superdad What is your knowledge on the P8?

 

I think you have previously asked me this. My answer was and still is that I have never tested the Keces P8 and can only go on what the manufacturer states. My suggestion was that you check the outputs with a meter to see if their zero-volt/-VE "grounds" are indeed independent of each other.

[Superdad]

14 hours ago, spotforscott said:

Hi Alex,

- Made sure "INT" was toggled on before powering up

- On the B side, copper ethernet connect to Linear Solution DS-1.

- When I connect the router to the B side of the ER, I get both green blinking and yellow blinking light. These same lights are visible on the A side with the connection to the DS-1, so all is good with that. Only other connection on the A side is from SonicOribiter server and for that connection, all I see is yellow blinking lights

- When I connect the router to the A side of the ER, I do not see any green blinking lights on either the A or B side

- So for some reason, teh ER is not able to connect to the router on the B side

 

Thiughts?

 

Hi:

I would really like to assist you with this over the phone today and get the EtherREGEN working for you!

Please either phone (1-209-966-4377) or sent a note with your phone number via our Contact page.

Thanks,

ALEX

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, Lobbster said:

It's not clear If it's ok sitting ER beside my End Point/DAC with a 12" copper patch cable or do we still need some separation, ie. 3ft or more?

 

Your current spacing should be fine. The EtherREGEN does not radiate much at all. A few inches is plenty. 

[Superdad]

4 minutes ago, MikePid said:

How about impact of other equipment on ER?  E.g. the ER probably should not be sitting on top of or near a power supply?

 

Depends a bit on the type of power transformer used in the power supply. R-cores don't radiate much of a magnetic field--especially not vertically. But yes, in general it is not a great idea to set components on top power supplies.

[Superdad]

29 minutes ago, nonesup said:

Hi Elan I think you overestimate my knowledge of electricity.😁

 Let's see with the two multimeter tips, I make contact with the negative terminals of the two outputs of the LPS.  Well and what value does the multimeter have to give me to know if it is open in short?

 

Most multimeters have a mode/setting for testing continuity (end-to-end connection). Often the graphic around the knob for this mode looks like sound waves (like wi-fi strength icon only on its side). When you have the meter set in this mode, touching the two probe tips together will cause a continuous beep to be heard through a tiny speaker in the meter.  And the display will usually show something as well (varies by meter).  

This continuity/beep mode is the easiest for checking to see if outputs of a power supply have independent zero-volt/-VE "ground" from each other.

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, lxgreen said:

I had this problem but was fixed with the software update. 

Had a call with @spotforscott today.  Can't believe I forgot to ask him if he did the firmware update.  But based on our conversation we suspect that his particular Audiolinux endpoint NUC has its Ethernet port set for 10MB/s. That's why it works on the 'A' side (which auto-negotiates to 10/100/1000) but not on our 100Mbps-only 'B' side. He can adjust that in the Audiolinux settings.

[Superdad]

11 minutes ago, Ultrarunner said:

I just received and installed my EtherRegen as a replacement for my opticalModule. Great results so far. One question: Was the ER supposed to ship with a fiber transceiver?

 

Happy to hear that you received your package and are already enjoying it.  No, the EtherREGEN does not ship with a fiber optic transceiver. Most people don't use the SFP cage and for those who do we can not predict what module they will have at the other end (and they need to match--at least in terms of type).  Let us know if you need links to some inexpensive ones--starting at $14. 

[Superdad]

5 minutes ago, alsterfan said:

Maybe the Command Strips have the advantage to be easily removed.

But as far as I can see the technical data lack information about the use as a heat transfer tape.

Hi Uwe:

I think Jud meant using those in place of screws to attach the brackets to the wall. Don't think he was suggesting Command Strips as thermal interface pads.

Wishing you a lovely holiday and New Years!

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

7 minutes ago, alsterfan said:

P.S. The above shown heatsink weighs 2,6 kg. Would the case of the ER stand it?

 

Sure, the EtherREGEN case can take the weight.  But unless that heatsink is made of lead I have really hard time believing it weighs 2.6kg. That's almost 6 pounds for a 4-inch square, 1-inch tall piece of aluminum which is mostly cut-out with fins.

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, Lobbster said:

The Cisco 2960's cannot make direct optical connection to the ER.

 

That is not correct. Myself and many other have made direct connection between Cisco Catalyst 2960 (and other Cisco models) and the EtherREGEN via optical SFP.

Of course the SFP modules used at both ends and the cable all have to match in types.

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

 An easier approach would be to simply switch between the two by swapping the INT / EXT switch whilst the EtherRegen is powered up and running.  Is it OK to do this?  I am a little worried the EtherRegen might not like this for some reason and I might junk something, but maybe I am being over cautious here? 

 

Sorry, but as @Dutch pointed out from the User Guide, changing the INT/EXT switch while the EtherREGEN is powered on will not work. It won’t harm anything, but it won’t alternate the unit’s usage of internal or external clock reference. Of course no clock signal runs    through that little slide switch—its position is simply looked at once when the unit is powered up, to tell the ‘B’-side microprocessor which code-set to load to the clock synthesizer such that it programs to run from either the internal 25MHz Crystek CCHD-575 or from an external 10MHz clock. After power-up programming the microprocessor shuts off and the position of the INT/EXT switch is ignored.

[Superdad]

28 minutes ago, Arpiben said:

In External clock reference mode, what is happening in case of no 10MHz signal input ( Reference Clock device failure/Off, BNC removed)? Thanks.

 

No clock = no data flow. 

[Superdad]

4 minutes ago, Pokey77 said:

Is the EtherRegen appropriate for use with an Aurender N10? I've only seen one person comment they use an Aurender. See my system config below.

 

I see this is your very first post here on Audiophile Style. WELCOME!

 

Yes, the EtherREGEN is ideal for use feeding music servers such as your Aurender N10. In your simple system you will just run your current Ethernet cable into one of the 'A'-side ports of our switch, and then another Ethernet cable from the lone 'B'-side port into your Aurender (assuming your N10 is the component directly feeding your DAC).

You should hear a difference right away, and, per all the user reports, the SQ will change a bit further over the following 100~200 hours of use.

 

Our products are sold with a 30-day money-back guarantee, so there is little risk to trying an EtherREGEN in your system (Though I must warn you: Out of 500 units delivered so far, only 2 people have asked to return. ).

Thanks and regards,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, stevebythebay said:

Beyond that, unless I'm missing something, you're one of few who are not streaming into an Ethernet enabled DAC environment.

 

Hi Steve:

I do not understand your above sentence.  There are lots of people using the EtherREGEN with computer/server/renderer endpoints (such as Aurender, Auralic, Innous, Sonore, SOtM, Taiko, etc.)--both with and without local music storage. And whether the connections from those endpoints to the DAC is AES, S/PDIF, or USB is not relevant to the EtherREGEN doing its job. 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Puma Cat said:

The truth of the world is this: There are NO, and I mean, NO perfect manufacturing processes or perfect products, from any manufacturer in any industry. None. They do not exist.

 

The Japense have a very specific term for their philosophy about designing and manufacturing products: KAIZEN (Change for the Better, ref here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen)

 

The key point about kaizen is to work with humility and open-ness with a spirit of "continuous improvment" so that overall product quality increases continually over time. When product quality improves, the customer's ability to use the product and their experience improves, and society as a whole improves, too. 

 

Understanding this key principle with humility rather than indignation is the basis for one of the highest quality manufacturing systems the the world, The Toyota Production System (reference: The Toyota Way by James Likert).

 

Hi Stephen:

We agree with your 100%.  

I am sorry that you have had such a hard time with the combination of the SFP optical transceiver from Sonore mated to the SFP cage of your EtherREGEN.

You are not the first person to have difficultly with the optical connection using that transceiver, AND to-date that model of transceiver is the only one for which we have record of difficulty.

 

The Amphenol SFP connector and transceiver used in the EtherREGEN are items chosen for their quality and not for their cost.  And the PCB positioning of the connector inside and relative to the cage is a precise, manufacturer specification which we adhere to. It might be possible for us to move the connector forward about 0.1mm, but we are not particularly inclined to do so and it might not solve the issue with the particular brand of SFP module you are using.

 

I have just now ordered for you this $14 SFP module: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U77VPX2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It will be delivered to your address tomorrow. I have been using these in production testing and they have worked fine.

 

Please try it and let us know if that solves your problem. If it does not, then permit us to exchange your EtherREGEN board for a new one. Life is too short to have to suffer exasperation with your audio toys. 

 

Thanks and regards,

--Alex Crespi

[Superdad]

21 hours ago, mourip said:

I am considering an ER but am not certain of its best use in my setup. I am a bit late to this thread and have skimmed looking for a match for my own system but did not really see one.

 

I have a Roon server PC (internal library and Qobuz streaming via the Internet) with a NUC endpoint out to the rest of the system. My server has a JCAT Femto ethernet card in bridged mode so that one port goes directly to the NUC and the second is attached to a small Cisco switch with some other non-audio ethernet connections and of course Internet/LAN access.

 

I have tried very hard to have a "clean" side and a "dirty" side to isolate my system. Until recently I used two FMCs to isolate my server from the LAN. After doing some experimentation I found that a straight ethernet cable sounded better than the fiber in spite of my theories.

 

When the ER became available I figured that it would be perfect to isolate my server from the LAN. After reading this thread it now sounds like I should use it between my Roon server and my NUC endpoint (I even have a REF10 to use). I guess that I could buy two ERs however I am not sure my CEO will like that 🙂

 

Hi Paul:

 

Thanks for your inquiry.  Yes, the proper placement of the EtherREGEN is with its lone 'B'-side port directly feeding your DAC-attached endpoint--with a short cable--which in your case is your NUC. That is the most important step. Then attach to the 'A'-side ports two cables: a single feed from your network, and a single feed from your server's JCAT Femto card.

You will no longer need or want to do use the two-port "bridging" of the JCAT card. Use just one jack of the JCAT.

 

If physically more convenient, you can instead connect your music server to the same upstream switch that is providing the LAN feed (to the EtherREGEN).  But do remove the cheap FMCs (not surprised they did not sound as good as your direct connection with JCAT card bridged) and try to avoid having multiple switches upstream unless you are connecting your server directly to an 'A' side EtherREGEN port. People running Roon sometimes have issues if their Roon Core server is connected to far upstream of the EtherREGEN.

 

Hope you will give EtherREGEN a try. We think you will be surprised. You can read many reports of JCAT Femto owners adding and reporting a big uptick in SQ. 

I also know that you are an AOIP user, and there are indeed now a nice handful of those (Focusrite/Dante, Merging/AES67/Ravenna) with EtherREGENs.

 

All the best,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

On 1/5/2020 at 1:49 PM, Puma Cat said:

Consistent product robustness problems with the the SFP Cage and Optical Transceiver on the EtherREGEN:

 

Since I received my ER back in October, I've experienced consistent problems with the SFP cage and optical transceiver on EtherREGEN. I am using the Sonore SystemOptique-certified 850 nM optical transceiver (purchased from Sonore) in the ER's SFP cage. 

 

My experience is that even if barely move, or in some cases, even touch the ER or the Tripp-Lite OM-1 specification optical cable that is plugged into the OT, the OT almost always disconnects in the SFP cage, and then I usually spend a considerable period of time trying to get the digital audio steam from my server to connect.

 

Today, after placing my digital streaming front end a nice maple board, I just spent >90 minutes trying to get ER to connect up. To say it was exasperating was putting it mildly, I was just about to give up and spend the afternoon listening to LPs when it "connected" again and I could stream my files to my SOtM SMS-200 UltraNeo. 🙀

 

Back when was I was working as Design for Six Sigma (DFSS) Master Black Belt, teaching product development principles to scientists and engineers for one of the leading biotech companies in the world, there was a key quality attribute that I spent a lot of time drilling home: the concept of a ROBUST product or system-level ROBUSTNESS.

 

A "ROBUST" product is defined as:  "Function performs on-target with minimal variation in the presence of NOISE factors."

 

The noise factor here is the optical transceiver module, and presently, the SFP cage/OT interface of ER is not robust to the optical transceiver utilized.

 

ER should work in a statistically robust manner with any industry-standard specification 850nM, 1000-Base SM MMX fiber optical transceiver, and in my experience, with the number of times that I (and for reference, a good friend that has also an ER) have had the problems described above, this is not the case. 

 

I know folks will chime in, here..."Oh, don't use that optical transceiver, use this OT, instead."

 

Look, gang, I get it, and I'll have to do that, I guess, in order to have a consistent and less exasperating customer experience. 

 

But, so that I am maximally clear here: that is not the point of this post.

 

The truth of the world is this: There are NO, and I mean, NO perfect manufacturing processes or perfect products, from any manufacturer in any industry. None. They do not exist.

 

The Japense have a very specific term for their philosophy about designing and manufacturing products: KAIZEN (Change for the Better, ref here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen)

 

The key point about kaizen is to work with humility and open-ness with a spirit of "continuous improvment" so that overall product quality increases continually over time. When product quality improves, the customer's ability to use the product and their experience improves, and society as a whole improves, too. 

 

Understanding this key principle with humility rather than indignation is the basis for one of the highest quality manufacturing systems the the world, The Toyota Production System (reference: The Toyota Way by James Likert).

 

This post was written in the spirit of kaizen with respect to helping Uptone Audio developing what is truly an excellent product into an higher-quality one, specifically with respect to product robustness. One that will realize its full and considerable potential all the while providing 1) a function performs on-target with minimal variation in the presence of noise factors and 2) a satisfactory customer experience.

 

Right now, its not doing that. 

 

Improving ER's "robustness quality attributes" will not only improve the customer experience, it will also lower service, support, repair, and warranty costs, a lower COPQ (Cost of Poor Quality), and result in greater profitability for Uptone Audio. And that's a good thing; I sincerely want Uptone Audio to be maximally profitable and successful as they bring a great deal of innovation and value to the audio industry. And, they're really nice guys, too. 

 

Alex, happy to work with you and Uptone Audio as a professional DFSS resource regarding the SFP/OT robustness quality attribute in any way I can. Feel free to reach out. 

 

all my best, 

Stephen

 

On 1/13/2020 at 1:42 PM, Puma Cat said:

I've now obtained a 10Gtek 850nM optical transceiver, the one that Alex and Uptone Audio recommends.

 

"Obtained" as in I bought one for you and had Amazon send it you via next day Prime? 

 

On 1/13/2020 at 1:42 PM, Puma Cat said:

It worked upon first install and has been functioning perfectly since. No dropouts, and to date, no issues with it the optical transceiver disconnecting from barely touching or moving the ER.

 

I guess the "robustness quality attributes" criticisms you eloquently communicated really apply more to the variation in SFP transceivers that Sonore is supplying--as those are the only ones yet reported to be finicky in the EtherREGEN's SFP cage. 

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, Puma Cat said:

Hi John and Alex,

Any word on this (hopefully forthcoming) white paper? Its been two months now since this was posted. Personally, this white paper would be an excellent reference for me to show to friends and fellow audiophiles about the John's discoveries of the role of high-impedance leakage currents on clock phase noise, and the benefits that ER brings in addressing this. 

 

I have a 6-page draft of it which I will be editing this weekend--into a condensed version to be used as a Q&A requested for a forthcoming formal review of the EtherREGEN.

 

For the measurement portion, John is still writing some code to capture and process the raw data from his Wavecrest timing analyzer as the software it comes with produces only averages of the measurements he wants (he can explain in more accurate detail if he wishes). It is rather complicated.

 

Truth is, we are both exceedingly busy at present and given that no clones of ourselves are showing up each morning to handle our most pressing tasks, a number of non-essential chores often get pushed out. So we thank you for your patience. 

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, PYP said:

Just now learning about fiber.  Would this patch cable work with Alex's suggested SFP?  https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00T5796DQ/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A1AMUYYA3CT6HJ&psc=1

 

Sure, that cable will work fine. It is multimode with LC connectors, matching the SFP transceivers we reference.  Here is a simple and informative page to read to get up to speed on the basics of common fiber optic cables:

https://www.fibercables.com/pages/picking-out-fiber-optic-cable

[Superdad]

37 minutes ago, willyhot said:

my current setup is connecting my network on A side and DAC connected player on the B side. And the SQ is great!
...
however, after same dropping frame issue happened today I decided to try my old 100 base T switch again to get my wife’s permission on buying a new Blu-ray.....  And you guess right , everything became smooth and perfect. I tried 5-6 movies and high definition documentaries and not a single frame dropped.

 

Sorry to hear you are having trouble. Puzzling since the 'A' ports of the EtherREGEN are Gigabit--so much greater throughput than your 100Mbps switch. 

What color LEDs do you see above the EtherREGEN 'A' port where you have the Blu-ray player plugged into? 

 

Can you submit a diagram of your network?  Because I guess I am confused about where the video stream is coming from or going to.  Are you playing Blu-ray discs or are you using your Blu-ray player as a video processor to stream from video files on network storage?  If so then what is that storage and where is it connected to?  Also, what is the file format? Full uncompressed 4K video will have a tough time moving smoothly through 100Mbps connections--especially if it has to go through several switches.

[Superdad]

6 hours ago, Heckyman said:

The LMS server (an i9 iMac) resides upstairs, so streams to the ER though the router via WiFi. It sounds great compared to before I got the ER, but I've noticed the sound is even better if I bring the server downstairs and plug it directly into the ER "A". 
Any thoughts on how to equalise these 2 connection methods so I can keep the server upstairs? Add another switch? Upgrade the router? Get a separate WiFi AP or mesh system? Throw upgraded LPS's on everything?

 

Easiest way would be to just run another long Ethernet cable from your LMS server to one of the other 'A'-side ports of your EtherREGEN. Then you can leave the server upstairs.

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, dminches said:

I received one of the ERs from the first batch and applied the firmware patch.  I am still having intermittent issues where the anything connected to the switch drops from my network.

 

My setup is very simple:  Verizon Fios modem/router > 24 port gigabit switch > Blue jeans Cable Cat 7 > EtherRegen “A” side.  The only other connection on the A side is a Cat 6 run to a Netgear switch in the same room.

 

Hi:

Sorry I am confused when you say that "anything connected to the switch drops from my network."  Connected to which switch?  Your 24-port unit, your Netgear switch, or the EtherREGEN?  

And no problems to you music server on the 'B' side?

 

Other than a cabling issue, the only thing I can think of is that perhaps you did not successfully update the firmware and that the EEE bug is still biting you. You could try reflashing your EtherREGEN.

 

Do post what you discover and if you continue to have trouble then please contact us for an exchange--as a way to be certain the issue is not with your unit. (Though hard to imagine; EtherREGENs--since the firmware updates--either just work or not; Intermittent things are most always traced to system/software connections.)

Thanks,

--Alex C.

 

[Superdad]

15 minutes ago, dminches said:

Alex, just to clarify, anything connected to the EtherREGEN no longer has an internet connection.  The “B” side is no longer seen on my network.

 

What are you feeding to the 'A'-side? It has to have a path back to you router to pass an IP address to your player on the 'B'-side. I'm sure you have that since you have been using the EtherREGEN for a while. Let's sort this out. Please contact me directly.

Thanks.

[Superdad]

10 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

Three days I'm back to stock SMPS and all is fine but... @Superdad Alex: any clue on what might have been the cause of... ^^^

Not sure Paolo. But keep an eye on your LPS-1.2. It could be the culprit. Be sure to keep it set to 12V as the EtherREGEN draws less at 12V than at the lower voltages.

[Superdad]

9 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

oh... btw... are ER and UltraCaps LPS-1.2 chargers the same?

asking as... I believe I was using ER's one to power the LPS-1.2

Yes, they are exactly the same model.