Lies about vinyl vs digital

[The_K-Man]

1 hour ago, Rexp said:

You stated the lack of brickwall limiting is the reason vinyl sounds better, the above example suggests this in not the case.

 

By "above example" which do you mean?

[acg]

24 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Besides, vinyl is not eco-friendly (see here) and downloading avoids delivery which in Europe is mostly done using not so modern delivery vans with diesel engines.

 

 

That is so funny... the freakin internet is far and away the largest user of energy on the planet... It's probably near half of the world's energy use right now...

[semente]

15 hours ago, GUTB said:

@gmgraves revealed the truth behind the LIE of vinyl noise that even I bought into without thought -- the noise floor of vinyl isn't a floor in the digital sense, it just the level of spurious noise.

 

If a digital recording peaks out, it sounds awful. We've all heard it. I have yet to hear my LPs peak out...a crashing crescendo, screaming vocalist, etc., is very loud but no evidence of bumping into a ceiling is present -- obviously you need an amp with enough muscle to follow your speakers through these peaks, but we're talking about the source here. Some of my CDs obviously peak-limited, some are obviously compressed / processed to be loud. Soft sound following by loud sounds is an indispensable component of enjoyable hi-fi -- that's preaching top the choir I suspect, but why are my LPs good at this while my digital sucks at it?

 

Okay guys, help me out. What CDs or digital albums feature powerful dynamics / transients?

 

A couple of examples (first plot 30dB wide, second plot 66dB wide):

 

 

Pixies "Gigantic"(4ad)

 

 

 

Pixies "Hey" (4ad)

 

 

 

Bartok "Rondos On Folk Tunes, Sz84 - I. Andante" (Kocsis/Denon)

 

 

 

Bruckner "Symphony No.9 In D Minor, WAB109 - II. Scherzo. Bewegt, Lebhaft - Trio. Schnell" (Giulini/DG)

 

 

 

Morales "Missa Mille Regretz - Kyrie" (The Hilliard Ensemble/Almaviva) - acapella choir, it's only vocals

 

 

 

Pink Floyd "Hey You" (Harvest) - taken from "Echoes"

 

 

 

Joanna Newsom "Three Little Babes" (Drag City)

 

[semente]

28 minutes ago, acg said:

 

 

That is so funny... the freakin internet is far and away the largest user of energy on the planet... It's probably near half of the world's energy use right now...

 

Let's stick to shopping shall we; there are people using cars and motorbykes and boats and planes and helis for recreation too. A long hall trip for a single passenger can waste as much fuel a that same person's whole year of driving.

Goods travelling across the planet by boat, plane or lorry, and local deliveries use a lot of fuel. In many civilized countries electricity is produced by clean sources like sun, wind or water.

[Rexp]

42 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

By "above example" which do you mean?

That 1980's digital recordings didn't use brickwall limiting yet the CD versions still sound poor..

[The_K-Man]

32 minutes ago, Rexp said:

That 1980's digital recordings didn't use brickwall limiting yet the CD versions still sound poor..

 

That might be due to a number of factors, such as recording technique with the digital recorders, and early ADCs(analog to digital converters).  I explained that in an earlier post.

[semente]

6 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Supertramp's Crime of The Century in "original" CD fashion.

 

I only have the "The Very Best of Supertramp" on CD.

Here's the Leq plot for "Rudy" - impressive, even if this is not the widest-range mastering of the track:

 

[semente]

This one of my test tracks, the 1st movement of Rach's Symphonic Dances Op.45 (Jansons/EMI):

 

 

 

Chabrier's España (Gardiner/DG) is also a nice test track:

 

[semente]

6 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Most of the CD's I own show better dynamics than their vinyl counterparts, but pick them (remasters are never among it).

 

My experience with classical music remasters contradicts this, although I completely agree if you are referring to rock and pop.

 

But dynamic range isn't everything and some remasters have a better tonal balance;  if the loss in DR is just marginal I may go for the better tone.

[Rexp]

48 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

That might be due to a number of factors, such as recording technique with the digital recorders, and early ADCs(analog to digital converters).  I explained that in an earlier post.

No, the recording is good as it sounds good on vinyl, there must be another reason.

[4est]

2 hours ago, semente said:

 

Let's stick to shopping shall we; there are people using cars and motorbykes and boats and planes and helis for recreation too. A long hall trip for a single passenger can waste as much fuel a that same person's whole year of driving.

Goods travelling across the planet by boat, plane or lorry, and local deliveries use a lot of fuel. In many civilized countries electricity is produced by clean sources like sun, wind or water.

Then let's stick to the the truth, unless there is hard evidence that vinyl is any better or worse on the environment than digital.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, 4est said:

Then let's stick to the the truth, unless there is hard evidence that vinyl is any better or worse on the environment than digital.

Vinyl contains toxic chlorine. Digital doesn't.

[4est]

14 minutes ago, mansr said:

Vinyl contains toxic chlorine. Digital doesn't.

That is a very shallow view considering all of the toxic stuff involved with making computers. All I am suggesting is that unless there is some verification one way or another, we leave it be. Do you have any ACTUAL studies on the veracity of the claim that vinyl is worse on the environment than digital? I am just trying to keep on topic.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, 4est said:

That is a very shallow view considering all of the toxic stuff involved with making computers.

Computers are used in vinyl production too.

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, semente said:

I only have the "The Very Best of Supertramp" on CD.

Here's the Leq plot for "Rudy" - impressive, even if this is not the widest-range mastering of the track:

 

I have three versions of that. The track Rudy, which again shows -0dB on  the two versions I listed as the worst (OK, some like to call that the best), shows -10.5, -12.0 and -13.5 dB respectively. So if you think you have it impressive already, you can grab another 12dB (and go sit outside).

 

The album that I use for "average reference" shows -16.5 dB in this regard (this is AC/DC' Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap). Anything at a distance of 6dB of that, I depict as "usable" (thus also 6dB more compressed I regard usable). But not 16.5dB more dynamic, like the Supertramp example. Btw, I have no worse examples than this Supertramp that I know of.

 

Btw, the AC/DC I also have in a -15dB and a -9 dB version, so might you gonna try what this so-called reference would be ... doesn't work again (you could have the -9dB version).

[4est]

4 minutes ago, mansr said:

Computers are used in vinyl production too.

Whatever. Go ahead and be petulant, but you are too smart to play dumb... Objective data then, or let's please move on. Besides, I cannot recall vinyl being pushed as specifically greener than digital.

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, 4est said:

I cannot recall vinyl being pushed as specifically greener than digital.

 

I saw a few green ones, but most are black.

[The_K-Man]

2 hours ago, semente said:

 

I only have the "The Very Best of Supertramp" on CD.

Here's the Leq plot for "Rudy" - impressive, even if this is not the widest-range mastering of the track:

 

 

Has signature of a typical pop 'remaster' - although many a mastering engineer over on Head-Fi will tell you it's "better than the original relase on CD"  and "use your ears, ignore the brickwall limiting" shown in that DAW".

 

By the way, what tool are you showing that in?

[semente]

19 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

Has signature of a typical pop 'remaster' - although many a mastering engineer over on Head-Fi will tell you it's "better than the original relase on CD"  and "use your ears, ignore the brickwall limiting" shown in that DAW".

 

By the way, what tool are you showing that in?

 

I'm using AudioLeak:

 

http://www.channld.com/audioleak/

 

 

If you think that this is bad take a look at a couple of Radiohead tracks:

 

Radiohead "Karma Police" (original CD edition of OK Computer)

 

 

 

Radiohead "Nude" (original CD edition of In Rainbows)

 

[semente]

50 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

I have three versions of that. The track Rudy, which again shows -0dB on  the two versions I listed as the worst (OK, some like to call that the best), shows -10.5, -12.0 and -13.5 dB respectively. So if you think you have it impressive already, you can grab another 12dB (and go sit outside).

 

The album that I use for "average reference" shows -16.5 dB in this regard (this is AC/DC' Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap). Anything at a distance of 6dB of that, I depict as "usable" (thus also 6dB more compressed I regard usable). But not 16.5dB more dynamic, like the Supertramp example. Btw, I have no worse examples than this Supertramp that I know of.

 

Btw, the AC/DC I also have in a -15dB and a -9 dB version, so might you gonna try what this so-called reference would be ... doesn't work again (you could have the -9dB version).

 

From the DR Database website, Rudy track:

• MFSL CD - DR16

• both '83 and '97 CD editions DR13

• '90 The Very Best Of CD - DR12 (I get the same DR using the TT DR Offline Meter 1.1 for mac)

 

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=supertramp&album=crime+of+the+century

[jabbr]

On 7/4/2018 at 3:47 AM, GUTB said:

So what’s going on here? Could the issue be that these aren’t lies so much as not accounting for awful ADCs and digital mastering techniques?

 

The most likely explanation is that you enjoy vinyl more, for other than electronic/technical reasons, and that when listening, your brain makes vinyl "sound better" to you.

[The_K-Man]

2 hours ago, Rexp said:

No, the recording is good as it sounds good on vinyl, there must be another reason.

 

What specific CD is it?  Catalog # on the case hinge, year of original release?  Let's look at the source first so we can rule that out.

[mordante]

6 hours ago, semente said:

 

I keep the laptop close to the system. I have to stand up, browse with iTunes, drag-drop into HQ Player. I don't use playlists.

 

I'd hate having to flip a record, clean it and zap it with an anti-static gun every 20 minutes. I'd hate it even more if I had to do this in the middle of a musical piece...

 

Besides, vinyl is not eco-friendly (see here) and downloading avoids delivery which in Europe is mostly done using not so modern delivery vans with diesel engines.

 

Since I don’t have Tidal, Spotify or a similar service it really does not matter if I buy a cd and rip it to my nas or buy a LP.

 

The only place where I buy digital downloads is bandcamp. Most other sites seem to focus on just jazz and blues.

[The_K-Man]

54 minutes ago, mordante said:

 

Since I don’t have Tidal, Spotify or a similar service it really does not matter if I buy a cd and rip it to my nas or buy a LP.

 

The only place where I buy digital downloads is bandcamp. Most other sites seem to focus on just jazz and blues.

 "nas"?? 

 

Help!  I don't get all these millenneeyool acronymz!  

[24/88.2]

7 hours ago, Fokus said:

 

And as said before: this is wrong. The noise of dithered PCM behaves exactly the same as the noise in an analogue channel. Dither has been known since the 1940s. And if you would care to inspect the circuit diagrams of early pro digital ADCs (such as Sony PCM16*0 series), you would see the dither source sitting there nicely before the quantiser.

Except for the 1600, they all were using a zennerdiode before the quantiser.

Also most consumertypes.