How much does it cost to be an audiophile?

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

What are some of those current selection pressures in first world societies?

Whatever it is that women find attractive in men. Many men seem to believe it is fast cars.

[accwai]

21 minutes ago, mansr said:

Whatever it is that women find attractive in men. Many men seem to believe it is fast cars.

 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Whatever it is that women find attractive in men. Many men seem to believe it is fast cars.

Taste varies so widely (dare I say, wildly) that it is hardly a criterion at all. 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

What are some of those current selection pressures in first world societies?

If you understand how evolution works, everything is a selection pressure at some level.  I'd imagine that modern selection pressures have to do with environmental changes/ pollution, changes in diet, and living in a more high paced society than humans have known before, etc.

Some people are going to live longer and reproduce better in modern conditions. There is, for instance, lots of scientific speculation that environmental factors/industrial food additives,  have something to do do with falling fertility rates.

 

[mav52]

4 hours ago, mansr said:

Whatever it is that women find attractive in men. Many men seem to believe it is fast cars.

When I met my wife she was driving a numbers matching 427 66 vet which we still have to this day along with my 65.   The woman knows old muscle cars.  So I found that very attractive in her. 

[AudioDoctor]

5 hours ago, mansr said:

Yes, because we pretty much suck physically, we had to invent various tools and otherwise outsmart other animals.

 

You seem to be suggesting that Africans are not as smart as others. That's wrong and offensive.

 

Why?  Did they not also have selection pressures that forced them to become smarter?  Nice try though...

 

Just because I used one example doesn't meant there aren't also others.

[AudioDoctor]

6 hours ago, Summit said:

 

If a dumbass president was elected in free and fair election, what does it say about the people that vote for him? After all he mainly does what he promised he would do ? 

 

I said he was a data point of the dumbing down, ie: lowering IQ, of society as a whole.  I would say it says exactly what I wanted it to.

[Ralf11]

11 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Thanks for the lecture on what I don't understand.  

 

 

No problem.  You aren't a biologist, so it is pretty easy to do.

 

Here is some reading for you:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

[Ralf11]

6 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

What are some of those current selection pressures in first world societies?

 

Kal, besides sexual selection, there is also a lot going on with the immune system, as well as menarche, BMI and ht.

 

Don't forget about stabilizing selection either - there are still "pressures" in that.

 

But one must be cautious:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933187/

[Ralf11]

4 hours ago, firedog said:

If you understand how evolution works, everything is a selection pressure at some level.  I'd imagine that modern selection pressures have to do with environmental changes/ pollution, changes in diet, and living in a more high paced society than humans have known before, etc.

Some people are going to live longer and reproduce better in modern conditions. There is, for instance, lots of scientific speculation that environmental factors/industrial food additives,  have something to do do with falling fertility rates.

 

 

Not exactly.  You need more than just differential mortality or fertility (or increased parental care leading to higher offspring fitness even in the face of LOWER fertility - the so-called K-selected organism)...  you also need a change in gene frequencies before you actually have evolution caused by selection.

 

 

[Ralf11]

re free and fair election - Russian trolls & information warfare are counterpoints to that; nonetheless, the issue with Drumfk is not his IQ (how smart does a Pres. need to be anyway?), it is his character and empty soul

 

re Africa - data on intelligence differences among different continents were analyzed some time ago - no signif. differences

 

so why did Europeons succeed in trashing all other cultures for a couple of centuries?

the ultimate nerdy-lookin' guy, Jarad Diamond offered one reason in his book (for general audiences) "Germs, Guns and Steel"

 

 

[mansr]

43 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

how smart does a Pres. need to be anyway?

Smart enough to not be constantly boasting about his own intelligence.

[mansr]

44 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

so why did Europeons succeed in trashing all other cultures for a couple of centuries?

Perhaps because they just happened to develop ships, guns, and a desire to explore/conquer the world before anyone else did. The development of ships might have been encouraged simply by the geography of Europe.

[Ralf11]

Historians rank the dumbest presidents - list includes Harding, Andrew Johnson, Reagan, and GW Bushco

[Ralf11]

Just now, mansr said:

Perhaps because they just happened to develop ships, guns, and a desire to explore/conquer the world before anyone else did. The development of ships might have been encouraged simply by the geography of Europe.

 

the Chinese had ships long before that - read Diamond's book - he set the Anthroplogists/Historians into a real tizzy

[mansr]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

the Chinese had ships long before that

Yes, but apparently they didn't want to conquer Europe, for whatever reason. The Mongols wanted to and did.

[gmgraves]

20 hours ago, mansr said:

All true, but an IQ test doesn't account for the effects of long-term experience. Reaching one's limit in a particular area of problem solving can take years.

When I stated that all IQ tests measure is the ability to solve problems, I would have expected that the word "all" would be universally inclusive, meaning that it excludes a lifetime of experience as well any savant-ism that one might have. It also excludes talents such as the ability to sing well, or play a musical instrument or prowess at some sport. Just the ability to solve problems. 

[gmgraves]

39 minutes ago, mansr said:

Yes, but apparently they didn't want to conquer Europe, for whatever reason. The Mongols wanted to and did.

Only as far west as Vienna.

[Ralf11]

19 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Only as far west as Vienna.

 

 

https://imgflip.com/i/2cedug

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Why?  Did they not also have selection pressures that forced them to become smarter?  Nice try though...

 

Just because I used one example doesn't meant there aren't also others.

Actually, according to "The Bell Curve" by  ‎Richard J. Herrnstein‎ and ‎Charles Murray, The people with the highest average IQ on the planet are the Chinese, followed by European Ashkenazi Jews. White Europeans are third. The groups with the lowest average IQs are Mexicans of American Indian ancestry, and Africans. And it's simply (in those cases) exactly that African natives and others on the low end of the scale do not have the selections pressures that forced them to be smarter. African Americans are 10 point below the US national average (which will always be 100 because it's the centerpoint of the bell curve by definition). And I'm just the messenger. Don't get mad at me if you don't like the findings of Herrnstein and Murray's research. 

And Mansr, suggesting that black Africans don't have as high an IQ as other groups is only offensive if it's not the truth and is being used to keep some groups down. Since it is the truth, and there is lots of research to back it up, it shouldn't offend anyone. I'm sure that it's Inconvenient for the politically correct, perhaps, but in science (and the search for truth), there is no place for political correctness. 

[gmgraves]

8 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

What are some of those current selection pressures in first world societies?

Physical attractiveness, is number one in all societies where the mates select each other. After that it's such factors as personality, sense of humor, and with women it's the ability of a potential mate to support a family. The guy who is good-looking, smart, has a high-paying job and exhibits that he has lots of money is prime mating material in this society and generally has his pick of the females. 

[gmgraves]

8 hours ago, mansr said:

Whatever it is that women find attractive in men. Many men seem to believe it is fast cars.

Well, Fast cars are generally expensive, and as such are an outward indicator of possible wealth and women are attracted to money as proof that the guy can provide her with financial security and in first world cultures, that's a big attraction. It can even trump #1, looks. Case in point: Bill Gates, Melinda French!

[Kal Rubinson]

6 hours ago, firedog said:

If you understand how evolution works, everything is a selection pressure at some level.  I'd imagine that modern selection pressures have to do with environmental changes/ pollution, changes in diet, and living in a more high paced society than humans have known before, etc.

Yes but I was thinking, in the context of this discussion, of selection for intelligence and talent.

 

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

But one must be cautious:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933187/

Thanks.  Very interesting.

[Ralf11]

One more tidbit - we do know that there is positive assortative mating for IQ

 

ok 2 more - I speculate that as people move to cities we will see some selection for whatever genes are involved in sociality (as defined by tolerating large aggregations and consequent frequent inter-human interaction).  Those one one side of the curve may suppress breeding or may wind up in prison, with whatever fertility consequences that has.

 

 

BTW, folks I suggest extreme caution re anything you see in The Bell Curve...

[Kal Rubinson]

11 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Physical attractiveness, is number one in all societies where the mates select each other. After that it's such factors as personality, sense of humor, and with women it's the ability of a potential mate to support a family. The guy who is good-looking, smart, has a high-paying job and exhibits that he has lots of money is prime mating material in this society and generally has his pick of the females. 

That's well known but that affects his options which may not be influenced by whether she is capable of (or interested in) a large family.  My point is that a wealthy and advanced society (putting aside its inequities and inefficiencies for the moment) does not challenge selection for intelligence to the extent that physical and intellectual abilities are selected in physically challenging environments.