Why!? Please Tell Me Why!

[Ralf11]

I think he meant to write "engineers" and instead wrote "trolls"

 

If you are lost in a universe you don't understand then you are likely to doubt that others do understand things.  So why rely on science and engineering??  Such hard work!

[pkane2001]

55 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I think he meant to write "engineers" and instead wrote "trolls"

 

I hate auto-correct!
 

[Albrecht]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Yes, those audio systems grow on trees, and audiophiles simply discover the best by trying different ones... Oh, wait! They are designed and engineered by professionals. Maybe we should give them a little credit for knowing what they are doing? Just a bit?

If a cable helps make a system sound good consistently, - then it is a "well engineered" cable. And, - I do give high end audio engineers credit, - but not their unreasonable critics who are naysaying engineers who don't do their research, and do not engage in thorough testing, (read comparative listening tests, - the ultimate and best source of knowledge for the purpose of the cable: to enhance the listening experience).

[pkane2001]

59 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

If a cable helps make a system sound good consistently, - then it is a "well engineered" cable. And, - I do give high end audio engineers credit, - but not their unreasonable critics who are naysaying engineers who don't do their research, and do not engage in thorough testing, (read comparative listening tests, - the ultimate and best source of knowledge for the purpose of the cable: to enhance the listening experience).

 

A well-engineered cable doesn't require feats of super-human engineering. If a cable produces audibly variable results with well-designed equipment, the cable is suspect. If the cable is well-designed, then the equipment is suspect. This is not rocket-science that the high-end cable purveyors would like you to believe.

 

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

A well-engineered cable doesn't require feats of super-human engineering. If a cable produces audibly variable results with well-designed equipment, the cable is suspect. If the cable is well-designed, then the equipment is suspect. This is not rocket-science that the high-end cable purveyors would like you to believe.

 

"A well-engineered cable doesn't require feats of super-human engineering."

 

Who said that it does? Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

"" If a cable produces audibly variable results with well-designed equipment, the cable is suspect.""

So? Again... I didn't assert anything to the contrary.... but different cable designs and cables  MAY affect the same system differently,- and that has nothing to do with whether or not the cable is "no well engineered" but the GOALS of the cable's design.

 

"" If the cable is well-designed, then the equipment is suspect."

Don't know what that means, - and I'm betting that no one does either. You might want to define what you mean here....

 

""This is not rocket-science that the high-end cable purveyors would like you to believe."

Beyond the cliche, - no it's definitely not rocket science, nor is it mysterious. If you're implying that cable manufacturers are liars selling snake oil, - I would contend that you would not convince anyone without a lot more specific arguments and testing to backup your assertions...

[pkane2001]

8 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

"A well-engineered cable doesn't require feats of super-human engineering."

 

Who said that it does? Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

"" If a cable produces audibly variable results with well-designed equipment, the cable is suspect.""

So? Again... I didn't assert anything to the contrary.... but different cable designs and cables  MAY affect the same system differently,- and that has nothing to do with whether or not the cable is "no well engineered" but the GOALS of the cable's design.

 

"" If the cable is well-designed, then the equipment is suspect."

Don't know what that means, - and I'm betting that no one does either. You might want to define what you mean here....

 

""This is not rocket-science that the high-end cable purveyors would like you to believe."

Beyond the cliche, - no it's definitely not rocket science, nor is it mysterious. If you're implying that cable manufacturers are liars selling snake oil, - I would contend that you would not convince anyone without a lot more specific arguments and testing to backup your assertions...

 

You’re missing the point: a well designed cable has no sound, and the goal of any competent engineer is to ensure that’s the case. Anything else is either incompetence or deliberate degrading of the function of a  simple component.

[Albrecht]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

You’re missing the point: a well designed cable has no sound, and the goal of any competent engineer is to ensure that’s the case. Anything else is either incompetence or deliberate degrading of the function of a  simple component.

Nope....

 

No cable, - designed well or not has a sound. But different cables effect the sound of the system. It has nothing to do with competence or incompetence, - but design goals....

[pkane2001]

6 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Nope....

 

No cable, - designed well or not has a sound. But different cables effect the sound of the system. It has nothing to do with competence or incompetence, - but design goals....

 

Proper cable design does not require compromises. A cable has very basic circuit characteristics that can all be fully accounted for in design. Again, not rocket science.

[Allan F]

20 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Proper cable design does not require compromises. A cable has very basic circuit characteristics that can all be fully accounted for in design. Again, not rocket science.

 

Rocket science has nothing to do with sound. Cables do affect sound quality, and its not because of incompetent designers or designs that fail to fully account for basic circuit characteristics.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, Allan F said:

Rocket science has nothing to do with sound.

Apparently you have never heard a rocket.

[Allan F]

8 minutes ago, mansr said:

Apparently you have never heard a rocket.

 

Thank you. I forgot that a rocket's sound is what people must be referring to when "rocket science" is used as a standard of comparison.

[semente]

When Differences Can be Heard

 

Part 1: Speaker Impedance and Wire Resistance

Part 2: Amplifier stability and Wire Capacitance

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#differences

 

taken from Speaker Wire - A History by Roger Russell

[Nordkapp]

I do not want cables adding anything to the sound. There are already too many variables.

[Albrecht]

35 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Proper cable design does not require compromises. A cable has very basic circuit characteristics that can all be fully accounted for in design. Again, not rocket science.

""Proper cable design does not require compromises."

Beyond saying not much in that sense, - like what do you mean by "proper" or "compromises?," - sure, - whatever, - and i never said that cable design does...

 

" A cable has very basic circuit characteristics that can all be fully accounted for in design"

Yes, - so? Again never said anything to the contrary....

 

To say it another way.. and to get specific. Cardas Clear and Nordos Valhalla are two very different designs, - both can affect the sound of a system, - in some systems, - they may cause the system to sound the same. In others, - (depending on amps/speakers/sources), they can make the system sound different. They have different resistance levels, different shielding, etc..  One is not designed or engineered poorly, the other is not necessarily better designed or Better engineered.... Through testing, and analysis...  the engineers from both companies and their dealer networks,  their customers, on other listeners know through many, many, tests the above to be true.

 

Your argument falls apart under the truth of what every listener knows, - that cable manufacturers are not propagandist liars bamboozling people with products that will not affect any changes in a high end audio system.

[Speedskater]

5 hours ago, mansr said:

Are you seriously trying to say that a Toslink cable doesn't carry audio signals?

Nope, I'm saying that the digital signal needs to be converted and de-coded, to fit the 1979 dictionary definition.

[Allan F]

19 minutes ago, Nordkapp said:

I do not want cables adding anything to the sound. There are already too many variables.

 

Cables don't add anything to the sound; they alter it. I believe what you meant to say is that you want cables that alter the sound to the least extent. However, it's a combination of the characteristics of both the cable and the associated equipment that accounts for the difference.

[Ralf11]

53 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Nope....

 

No cable, - designed well or not has a sound. But different cables effect the sound of the system. It has nothing to do with competence or incompetence, - but design goals....

 

affect

 

and like he said, if it does, then something is wrong

[Nordkapp]

15 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

Cables don't add anything to the sound; they alter it. I believe what you meant to say is that you want cables that alter the sound to the least extent. However, it's a combination of the characteristics of both the cable and the associated equipment that accounts for the difference.

If said cables are "altering" sound, then they are effectively adding or subtracting  something. That said, yes I desire the most neutral interfaces as possible. 

[pkane2001]

20 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Your argument falls apart under the truth of what every listener knows, - that cable manufacturers are not propagandist liars bamboozling people with products that will not affect any changes in a high end audio system.

 

I guess I must be an exception, since I know that well designed cables do not have any audible effect in a well designed system. And by well-designed, I don't mean expensive or high-end or the monstrosities that started this thread. Just properly engineered. 

[Ralf11]

many expensive cable manufacturers are propagandist liars bamboozling people with products that will not effect any changes in a high end audio system

 

 

Learn the difference between affect and effect - it will help people believe you know what you are talking about

[Nordkapp]

22 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I guess I must be an exception, since I know that well designed cables do not have any audible effect in a well designed system. And by well-designed, I don't mean expensive or high-end or the monstrosities that started this thread. Just properly engineered. 

You are not an exception....you are an inspiration to many.

[Albrecht]

26 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I guess I must be an exception, since I know that well designed cables do not have any audible effect in a well designed system. And by well-designed, I don't mean expensive or high-end or the monstrosities that started this thread. Just properly engineered. 

Of course "properly engineered" means nothing whatsoever. Amongst the inexperienced you are not an exception, - as this section of Computer Audiophile is indeed, testament.

[gmgraves]

1 minute ago, Nordkapp said:

You are not an exception....you are an inspiration to many.

Here-here! He is right. There are two kinds of cables that ave an audible effect and only one that can be easily and statistically repeatedly discerned in a proper DBT. The first kind is a cable that looks so good, it just has to make an audio system sound better. The second is a cable that is specifically designed as either a low-pass, or a midrange-pass, or a high-pass filter in order to make that cable sound different, AKA "better" than the competition by attenuating some frequencies and passing others unaltered. 

[gmgraves]

5 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

Of course "properly engineered" means nothing whatsoever. Amongst the inexperienced you are not an exception, - as this section of Computer Audiophile is indeed, testament.

I suspect that by properly engineered, he means cables (and I'm assuming we're talking interconnects here) that have relatively low X sub c and X sub L, are not designed purposely to be filters, and have quality terminations and good quality strain reliefs on both ends. 

[Ralf11]

Well, we should mention that:

 

1.  a USB cable can transmit EM noise or create a ground loop

2. speaker cables can affect sound when used with coneheads (which present a complex impedance)

3. Interconnects can pick up RFI/noise - the simple solution is to use a Balanced cable (and if your equipment only provides for RCA connections, then consider that the manf. is not serious about SQ, no matter how much they charge).  Also, Benchmark recently noted that Star-Quad helps even more.

 

Other than the above, just buy fanciest, most expensive Phaatie-est cables and enjoy the warm euphonic glow of confirmation bias at its best