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On the subject of "ringing"


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  • 3 weeks later...

IMO preringing matters greatly on headphones at least.  Perhaps the effects of "ramp up" or preringing are not as apparent when played on speakers in a free field environment.  But when the drivers are an inch away from your ear, the timing becomes very important.  I have a lot of respect for @Archimago. But I read on one of his articles (on his blog) that preringing is only apparent at high frequencies.  My ears disagree.

 

The preringing introduced by digital filter reconstruction seems to affect all frequencies.  Or perhaps it only changes the time alignment of the highs in relation to lows.  Which is happening I can't say. What I can say is that I prefer minimum phase filtering to linear phase.  For me, transient alignment is paramount to Rock/Metal/Prog music I enjoy so much.

 

It's like any other audio phenomenon:  when you hear it, you can't unhear it.  If you know what to listen for, you can pick out preringing on headphones pretty easily provided you have a decently resolving system.  For me, the biggest tell of preringing is that instruments separation is almost "too good".  While the stage becomes very expansive and space between the instruments is increased, you give up some precision on the attack.  There is definitely a tradeoff here.  

 

The next biggest tell is in an instrument that covers both high and low frequency in the same transient:  The bass kick drum.  A kick drum should have a click or snap of high mid frequency (when the batter head strikes the drum head) followed by a decay of bass and sub bass as the note decays.  If the transients are aligned using a linear phase filter, what you hear is a slight "chuffing" of the sub bass coming in just before the click of the batter head.  Some call this "ramp up".

 

I believe we've been listening to music on CDs for a long time and our brains have become accustomed to this ramp up sound.  Plus, it's not overly apparent unless you are listening critically.  Once you hear it though, you won't unhear it.  The overall effect of kick drum timing of high vs low frequency results in a blurry presentation, where that drum gets buried in the mix and the attack is subdued.  The same can be observes for all instruments to some degree.  I only use the bass kick as the most evident example. 

 

So take your pick:  enhanced instrument separation and open staging (linear phase) or perfectly timed transient attack (minimum phase).  You can't have both at 44.1 and a flat bandpass of 20-22k.  Now, if you're willing to concede some of the high frequency response, and design a filter that slowly rolls off, you can have the best of both worlds (but it'll sound dull at 44.1 pcm)

 

What I've just burped out is the case for high res PCM or DSD.  You can eliminate pre and post ringing by having a very slow rolloff filter ABOVE the audible range, leaving a perfectly reconstructed, time aligned sound between 20-20k.  

 

Long video, but it helps describe and give an example of pre-ringing in a very exaggerated form.  Note that the author chose to use the bass kick as the instrument to demo these preringing effects:

 

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We spend a huge amount of time arguing about the audible benefits/detriments of stuff where those arguing pro or con provide absolutely no data to support their claims.

 

So when we discover an area where we have data that clearly supports an impact on sound waves, the first thing everyone does is deny it can make a difference???

 

Is audio that special breed of science where data is irrelevant and "I heard a difference" is the gold standard???

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2 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

 

I'm more worried about those who drive like their fuel gauge says full, when there's really nothing in the tank... B|

Once when I bought a brand new (Ford) car it read full. "How kind, the dealer has filled the tank"

 

It stopped four miles down the road  :D

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32 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

 

 

32 minutes ago, Spacehound said:
47 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

.....Is audio that special breed of science where data is irrelevant and "I heard a difference" is the gold standard???

Only for a crazy minority. - Spacehound

 

 It is when backed up by correctly performed, positive DBT results, which many E.E.s claim ARE the " Gold Standard", until the results don't go the way they expected them to !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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5 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 

 It is when backed up by correctly performed, positive DBT results, which many E.E.s claim ARE the " Gold Standard", until the results don't go the way they expected them to !

 

 

one needs to present the methods as well as the claims

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23 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

 

I'm more worried about those who drive like their fuel gauge says full, when there's really nothing in the tank... B|

 

I was more worried recently, when the Fuel Gauge showed almost empty when there should have been around 3/4 of a tank.:$The rheostat in the petrol tank had become faulty.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

 

one needs to present the methods as well as the claims

 

 It still wouldn't matter to many E.E's , or that matter, the Anti Vaxxers, or the small numbers of General Practitioners who are smokers and refuse to accept the printed warnings on the packets as correct.

They would invariably find some fault with the methodology used.. 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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17 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 

 It is when backed up by correctly performed, positive DBT results, which many E.E.s claim ARE the " Gold Standard", until the results don't go the way they expected them to !

There is no such thing as a 'positive' blind test and no 'correct' or 'expected' answer.

 

All the tests are is 'can you tell ANY difference'? It's not 'Can you tell THE difference'.

Thus it is 'binary'  (yes or no) so  100% objective as unless you CAN hear a difference you CAN'T have a 'preference'

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3 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

There is no such thing as a 'positive' blind test and no 'correct' or 'expected' answer.

 

All the tests are is 'can you tell ANY difference'? It's not 'Can you tell THE difference'.

Thus it is 'binary'  (yes or no) so  100% objective as unless you CAN hear a difference you CAN'T have a 'preference'

 

 What a load of crap ! That may be the way they are SUPPOSED to work, but in the case of people like yourself, mansr etc.. it is almost always a case of prove what you are saying with DBTs ,(sometimes followed by " or STFU" ) just as with any other claim in every field where people report results that can't be reasonably explained.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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15 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 What a load of crap ! That may be the way they are SUPPOSED to work, but in the case of people like yourself, mansr etc.. it is almost always a case of prove what you are saying with DBTs ,(sometimes followed by " or STFU" ) just as with any other claim in every field where people report results that can't be reasonably explained.

Bollox.

I can't speak for mansr but I have never 'created' nor taken part in ANY kind of audio test, blind or otherwise, and I don't intend to.

Why?  I couldn't be bothered. Like most  others  I just buy (or sometimes make)  whatever takes my fancy.

 

"can't be reasonably explained"

Which sort of UNreasonable explanations do you prefer?

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28 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

" can't be reasonably explained"

 

 There are numerous reports by members of this forum, and other related forums,  that can't presently be reasonably explained by the majority of the suitably qualified members, who prefer to ridicule them instead.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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6 hours ago, buonassi said:

 

Long video, but it helps describe and give an example of pre-ringing in a very exaggerated form.  Note that the author chose to use the bass kick as the instrument to demo these preringing effects:

 

That is a demonstration of equalisation with the filter transitions smack in the audible band. It has been known for three decades or so that under these conditions, given sufficiently steep transitions, linear phase pre-ringing can be audible.

 

But if you move the transition frequency up and up the audible effect vanishes.

 

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3 hours ago, Fokus said:

 

That is a demonstration of equalisation with the filter transitions smack in the audible band. It has been known for three decades or so that under these conditions, given sufficiently steep transitions, linear phase pre-ringing can be audible.

 

But if you move the transition frequency up and up the audible effect vanishes.

 

 

What if you can't move the transition frequency higher up i.e. low-passing a mid-woofer with a digital crossover?

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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On 1/24/2018 at 5:32 PM, fas42 said:

Does pre ringing matter? No.

 

As its frequency is at Nyquist, which is above almost everyone's HF cutoff frequency, you would think not. But when I discussed this with Karlheinz Brandenburg at an AES convention several years ago, he said that basically even if you can't hear the "ringing" as a tone, your brain could well be aware that something has happened when it starts and marks it as an acoustic "event." Then, when the peak is subsequently reached, that is marked as a spurious second "event," leading to confusion.

 

On the subject of the time-symmetrical ringing of linear-phase digital filters, I assume Robert Watts would disagree; see my comment on his "million-tap" filter at https://www.stereophile.com/content/chords-million-tap-digital-filter

 

Incidentally, I have recently been examining the time-behavior of A/D converter antialiasing filters and have found just one which captures a band-limited impulse without any ringing before or after: the Listen filter on Ayre's QA-9 converter, designed by Charley Hansen and Ariel Brown.

 

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

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