Experience with power conditioners?

[Middy]

I know opinions and passions can get the better of us but the Question remains from @pam1975 For some solid advice.

Pam can you list your set up speakers amp and power budget you are prepared to spend?

 

One not so obvious is to have an electrician fit  wire cooker cable ie thick to a dedicated socket for your audio from the main supply.

 

If you have $5k-10,000 on a huge audiopile regenerator or can have big power filter transformers fitted at the mains..great.

 

But A budget and opinion from the personal experiences of these posters might at least give you a starting point..

Are you USA based UK AU Can EU.?

This will help with local brands..

 

Good luck

 

Dave

[jabbr]

48 minutes ago, Middy said:

I know opinions and passions can get the better of us but the Question remains from @pam1975 For some solid advice.

 

The advice to use an isolation transformer was very solid and reasonable.

[Speedskater]

For large systems, a big, permanent, hard wired isolation transformer wired as a 'Separately Derived System' can be a nice addition.

[Middy]

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

The advice to use an isolation transformer was very solid and reasonable.

I agree just ensure its high enough KV to meet your requirements.  @pam1975

I just know mine gave a nice boost to my amp dac for my headphones...

 

ect mine uk balanced isolation transformer.

https://airlinktransformers.com/product/standard-balanced-power-supply-bps1500#full-spec

 

[pam1975]

It's turned into a very interesting thread - didn't expect that but I learned a lot in the process.

I am indeed exploring the option of the isolation transformer, although being in EU I also learned that the mains tend to be cleaner.

And no, I will not spend $5k to $10k for clean power, way overkill for me...

[Middy]

 I wish I had that amount too...

Not knowing about Electrickery doesn't help me especially in counterpoint discussions. This was a low price gamble at £280 ish...No magic bullet as everyone's local/ internal supply and kit varies so much. But is it better with the ISO TRANS.. Yes in my case.

And...if my rig changes that stays.

But like I said a dedicated run to your audio gear room may be cheaper and remove some issues.

This can be stage 2 getting a transformer .

We have ring main loops in the UK. 

I have no more spare rcd spots on my consumer unit. I can't afford to replace mine yet.

Good luck Pam and have fun

Dave

 

 

[Ralf11]

6 hours ago, jabbr said:

   My wife is mystified as to why these superheavy boxes keep arriving from Indiana. ...

 

tell her either Indy 500 parts or a Norwood Repulsion ray gun

[Ralf11]

speaking of the OP...

 

here's my 1st ReStmt. of the questions:

 

1. is a power conditioner likely to add a significant bump in SQ?

 

2. are there more important elements to address first?

 

for #1, I suspect it may depend on the quality of the power delivered to your home, and that might vary based on location, what the neighbors are up to, and other factors

 

- a power conditioner won't help with RFI from cordless phones, WiFi xmitters, fl. lights, (LEDs?), and other audio components (right?)

 

- what do we know about AC power quality in a typical US home?  or, most importantly, a home in an R-1 zone in the western US served by BPA and about 8 blocks from a sub-station??

 

 

for #2, I might answer yes as most people's systems will benefit greatly from better speakers, better rooms, and better treatments (this last item can be very low cost)

 

I also wonder if Streaming systems are more susceptible to AC power issues than Rippers, tho I think George said it made a big difference in his analog chain

[Speedskater]

I have no clue as how to do a multi-quote, so I'll improvise:

speaking of the OP...

here's my 1st ReStmt. of the questions:

1. is a power conditioner likely to add a significant bump in SQ?

Not very likely.

 

2. are there more important elements to address first?

Heck yes!

 

for #1, I suspect it may depend on the quality of the power delivered to your home, and that might vary based on location, what the neighbors are up to, and other factors

I would think that other hi-fi components, nearby high-tech lighting systems, appliances and HVAC would have more impact on power quality than what is delivered to the home.

 

- a power conditioner won't help with RFI from cordless phones, WiFi xmitters, fl. lights, (LEDs?), and other audio components (right?)

Correct! Most power conditions don't do a very good job of dealing with RFI.

 

- what do we know about AC power quality in a typical US home?  or, most importantly, a home in an R-1 zone in the western US served by BPA and about 8 blocks from a sub-station??

I'll pass on that one.

 

for #2, I might answer yes as most people's systems will benefit greatly from better speakers, better rooms, and better treatments (this last item can be very low cost)

Yep.

 

I also wonder if Streaming systems are more susceptible to AC power issues than Rippers, tho I think George said it made a big difference in his analog chain

I'll pass on this on too.

[fas42]

8 hours ago, jabbr said:

This would be readily apparent in THD measurements. If your SPICE model shows "high frequency rubbish" then you probably need better snubbers. DIYAudio has endless discussions on amplifier design and a subforum on power supply design -- if you post your SPICE model there folks would help you out.

 

THD and suchlike may be very deceptive because they refer to the DUT being in an equilibrium with respect to its operating conditions - and that's one thing an amplifier while playing back music is most certainly not. Depending upon precisely the type of music being played and the volume, the circuitry is in a constant flux, changing endlessly, with respect to voltages and temperatures - steady state measurments are quite useless for assessing the meaningful characteristics of the unit.

 

Yes, snubbers are needed - and, virtually no audio components use them; I went through a phase of adding these to ordinary audio consumer items, and they all benefited markedly.

 

I used to be very active on diyAudio - and played a major part in a long running thread on understanding the inner workings of power supplies - so, been there, done that.

[Ralf11]

playing a major part in a long running thread on the internet is not the same as played a major part in designing digital electronics after getting an IEEEE degree

[Ralf11]

and I hope I stuck in enough E's to satisfy all you guys 

[fas42]

47 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

playing a major part in a long running thread on the internet is not the same as played a major part in designing digital electronics after getting an IEEEE degree

 

Not quite sure how this is relevant to making an audio power amplifier behave well ...

[Speedskater]

46 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Not quite sure how this is relevant to making an audio power amplifier behave well ...

The point is:

Marce knows a lot about circuit design, while many poster on many audiophile forums don't.

And why specify audio power amplifiers on an AC power thread?

[cjf]

22 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Use of isolation transformers is very well established. This has nothing to do with "instantaneous current delivery" rather reduction in leakage current (among the other things). Generally the interwinding capacitance is specified by e.g. Topaz. Mine have 0.0005 pF  giving common mode noise attenuation > 100 dB =>

https://books.google.com/books?id=OtXLBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=0.0005+pf+capacitance+transformer&source=bl&ots=wf6fxXGSYf&sig=Vnm-U1csYZOIbOkd-OkuMjXrqxI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj45Mjl7ZvVAhUEZCYKHQrYAfIQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=0.0005 pf capacitance transformer&f=false

https://coefs.uncc.edu/mnoras/files/2013/03/Transformer-and-Inductor-Design-Handbook_Chapter_17.pdf

 

I have no issues with ISO Transformers. In fact, as I previously mentioned, I still own a very good one today but have chosen to stop using it due to feeling that my system in its current state sounds better without it. In previous versions/states of my setup the ISO Trans did a fine job.

 

It was mentioned that maybe I need to use a bigger one but that wont be happening. My existing unit, based on numbers/specs alone, should in theory, be plenty big enough if it were truely not limiting current in any way. But as I've come to learn, the same two mono blocks plugged into the same shared, dedicated 20A circuit directly that the ISO Trans used now sound noticeably more powerful, fast and alive then they did when they were plugged into the ISO Trans.

 

The unit I am speaking of is the Torus RM-20 which is a 100lb beast with a 20A & 2400w rating using a real 20 cord plugged into a dedicated matching circuit wired with 10ga Romex. This is about three times more then what my amps are pulling from the wall. Using a bigger one is nonsense. I think the more likely reality is that they are not as "Pass Thru" or direct as Mr Graves thinks/says they are.

 

Is it possible that the $3K Torus is not as good as the $60 unit? That I cant answer, but I sure hope not.

[jabbr]

22 minutes ago, cjf said:

Is it possible that the $3K Torus is not as good as the $60 unit? That I cant answer, but I sure hope not.

I don't think it's about which transformer is better rather what sound good to you in your system -- It's not fair to test components in different systems with different listeners and draw conclusions about the components. I'd predict that the 100lb transformer is perfectly excellent

 

You could start doing doing a bunch of measurements if you wanted to track down with some degree of validity or else just do what sounds best  

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Speedskater said:

The point is:

Marce knows a lot about circuit design, while many poster on many audiophile forums don't.

And why specify audio power amplifiers on an AC power thread?

 

Not arguing with anything that marce says - I've parried with him over minor details, and viewpoints, in a previous forum lifetime - yes, he knows his stuff ...

 

Audio power amplifiers are the real meat of the AC power problem in most audio situations - because they demand transient, heavy spikes of current from the mains supply to feed the typical power supply smoothing caps; other audio components have requirements far less grunty, they're relatively benign. Just imagine you had a very heavy duty light dimmer, driving some high wattage lamps in your room - do you think that a normal stereo would be completely impervious to any interference from that?

[jabbr]

9 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Audio power amplifiers are the real meat of the AC power problem in most audio situations - because they demand transient, heavy spikes of current from the mains supply to feed the typical power supply smoothing caps; other audio components have requirements far less grunty, they're relatively benign.

 

This isn't true. As I mentioned above:

 

1) what about an input choke filtered power supply? How do "transient, heavy spikes of current" make it through the choke?

2) What about constant current sourced amplifiers? How would they work? Do you heard of a "cascode"?

The whole point of a "typical power supply smoothing cap" is that it is the supply current that is smoothed with respect to amplifier draw.

3) What about shunt supplies? They are also designed to supply "instantaneous spikes" of current without drawing such spikes from the mains AC.

I could go further on and on, but start by addressing the three examples

 

9 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Just imagine you had a very heavy duty light dimmer, driving some high wattage lamps in your room - do you think that a normal stereo would be completely impervious to any interference from that?

 

Really?

Let's start with a few very simple questions:

1) what is current in amps that the lamps use?

2) what is the maximal current in amps that the ampifiers draw? 

3) how many amps is the circuit rated for

4) at any point does a fuse blow?

 

C'mon

[fas42]

5 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

This isn't true. As I mentioned above:

 

1) what about an input choke filtered power supply? How do "transient, heavy spikes of current" make it through the choke?

2) What about constant current sourced amplifiers? How would they work? Do you heard of a "cascode"?

The whole point of a "typical power supply smoothing cap" is that it is the supply current that is smoothed with respect to amplifier draw.

3) What about shunt supplies? They are also designed to supply "instantaneous spikes" of current without drawing such spikes from the mains AC.

I could go further on and on, but start by addressing the three examples

 

 

Really?

Let's start with a few very simple questions:

1) what is current in amps that the lamps use?

2) what is the maximal current in amps that the ampifiers draw? 

3) how many amps is the circuit rated for

4) at any point does a fuse blow?

 

C'mon

 

Of course one can do designs which mitigate the situation - I've come across all sorts of clever thinking which improve the behaviour; I'm commenting here on the classic power supply circuit, which is standard fare in every textbook.

 

The smoothing cap is there to try and maintain a decently stable voltage rail; heavy bass comes along and lots and lots of energy is needed by the output stage - the caps sag by a decent amount, and then the next charging pulse comes along, and depending upon the ESR of the caps and everything else a tremendous spike of current feeds that part of the circuitry - why is the standard diode bridge used a whopping, 35A rated part? ... because, it needs to be .... And the primary current reflects that draw ...

 

The point about the lamps is the transient nature of the current draw, and the number of amps involved - high current suddenly starts, and then stops - lots and lots of harmonics are generated, depending upon everything.

 

The reality is that plenty of people have found that separating the supply of mains power for the amps from the rest of the gear can make a major difference - if something works, then there is a reason.

 

[Speedskater]

Why do we read about soft-start circuits in power amps to protect their bridge rectifiers, if AC circuits can't deliver short term power?

Any AC circuit can easily deliver more than 10 times it's rated current for several power line cycles.

[gmgraves]

On 7/21/2017 at 6:25 PM, cjf said:

Do you happen to have any measurements that you've done yourself your willing to share with the peanut gallery on this miracle $60 "Medical Grade" ISO Transformer?

 

Given all the mention of one only needing a properly built amplifier to begin with to avoid the need for such a power cleansing contraption we may be inclined to think your feeling the need to own one yourself is an admission of guilt that your own amp must not be properly designed like the rest of us poor slobs.

 

Do you really think this $60 ISO Transformer is as good as you think it is easily outclassing everything else on the market regardless of how much research,time and money was blown during the creation of its more established competitors products?

 

Please pass me whatever your smoking, I need to experience the same high

 

I haven't actually done any measurements, per se, but I have looked at the mains waveform at the wall and at the secondary side of the medical transformer using a Tektronix 465B 'scope, and any grunge visible on the mains waveform is absent on the secondary side. I don't remember saying that a properly built amplifiers don't need clean mains power, I said that an amplifier circuit with a properly designed power supply doesn't depend on a power conditioner to supply some mythical instantaneous current for the amp to maintain good transient response - a royally different thing.

 

Copper and good permeable iron are expensive. These consumer grade audio power conditioners from the likes of Shunyata Research are generally 1st or 2nd order LRC filters and don't use anywhere nearly as much copper or iron as does a large isolation transformer. Such transformers presents such a high impedance to high frequencies that they simply do not get across the primary/secondary boundary. Now, the power transformer in one's amplifier does have some attenuating properties to line noise, but it's nowhere as effective (and neither is a consumer-grade "snubbers") at cleaning-up line noise as is a big isolation transformer like mine.  

 

I was lucky. I saw the worth in that transformer I bought early oncnd was able to snag it at a great bargain price. I call it a medical-grade transformer because it has a medical grade dual receptacle on the secondary end bell casing. I really have no idea what it's original owner used it for. And to be clear, I don't just power my amps from this transformer, I power my entire system from it.

[audiventory]

To estimation of impact power conditioner, us need to learn primary goal - analog output of DAC: what power conditioner change there?

[One and a half]

2 hours ago, audiventory said:

To estimation of impact power conditioner, us need to learn primary goal - analog output of DAC: what power conditioner change there?

A single point power supply will give all the audio devices the same reference. This means reducing the risk of unequipotential grounds that causes further SCIN in the signal leads. 

Further the conditioner, and can be anything that provides a single source, still means leakage currents can travel to and fro via AC power.  

To stop these,  for USB anyway is to use isolation in the signal path, or super shielding, xlr cabling, and bonding cables.

By no means is there a method to isolate Dacs from AC power without severely creating a high impedance where we want everything common to the one source.

 

[Speedskater]

48 minutes ago, One and a half said:

A single point power supply will give all the audio devices the same reference. This means reducing the risk of unequipotential grounds that causes further SCIN in the signal leads.

This is what Ralph Morrison and Bill Whitlock have been writing for decades.

But it's Common Impedance Coupling noise not SCIN that's the problem here.

[gmgraves]

On 7/22/2017 at 10:42 AM, pam1975 said:

It's turned into a very interesting thread - didn't expect that but I learned a lot in the process.

I am indeed exploring the option of the isolation transformer, although being in EU I also learned that the mains tend to be cleaner.

And no, I will not spend $5k to $10k for clean power, way overkill for me...

 

That depends on where you are, I guess. My friend Sergio lives in Rome. He says that his mains is very noisy and he uses a mains filter. Another audiophile friend, Geoff, lives in Silicon Valley these days , but he used to live in London, He said that his mains was very dirty (and I've seen letters to the editor in several British Hi-Fi rags ask what they could do about the dirty mains supply. Also, keep in mind that while British receptacles are very robust and three pronged, most of mainland Europe uses a rather flimsy, two round-pronged receptacle without a ground connection.