Experience with power conditioners?

[Middy]

On 15/07/2017 at 8:45 PM, pam1975 said:

perfect, thank you!

 

I don't know where you live Pam but the US is awash with Topaz and Elgar transformers it seems....

They can be set up for different voltages so a trip to an EE first to check the settings and condition for safety. Wiring ect.

If I can explain this right...John Swenson advised these as they are cheapish to obtain and have advantages with low inner-winding capacitance. Attached to a simple non filtered cheap mains strip ( lower impeadance?). + other devices.

 

The lower inner winding capacitance helps filter out higher frequency mains noise. (Someone jump in if Iam telling it wrong)

The balanced aspect splits the power in half...opposite phase. When combined the difference is cancelled out.

 

It can produce an audible hum very low but can be an issue for some but with work arounds. 

If it is driving a power amplifier, some say peak power is more important(direct from wall) but for a cleaner pre amp Dac supply this is more suitable.

I opted for a UK balanced Isolation transformer by Airlink. It helped my simple set up and was a nice suprise.

Please note this is mainly paraphrased  and gleaned from CA and it's knowledgeable members and professionals. 

I know very little but appreciate the hard learned knowledge here and try to apply it as safely and cheaply as I am able.

 

I hope this helps a little @pam1975and any reader spotting any mistakes in the post let me/ Pam /ET AL..

Know..

 

Good luck and have fun

Dave

 

[Teresa]

22 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

what's wrong with your power that a conditioner will fix?

 

In my case it fixed a very real audio problem. I was hearing bad radio frequency interference (RFI) that actually sounded like a low level slightly mistuned radio station playing when I had no music playing or in between songs. I don’t own a tuner so I had no idea where this was coming from.

 

I bought a used Monster HDP1800 High Definition PowerCenter at a pawn shop for $60. I routed all my system power cords through the PowerCenter 1800 and the interference disappeared completely. The best $60 I ever spent.

 

On 7/15/2017 at 8:20 AM, pam1975 said:

hi,

I'd like to know if you believe power conditioners (eg PS Audio P5) are adding a significant bump in SQ or rather a marginal one and there are more important elements to address first.

I've read mixed opinions on the topic - a few people believe it all starts there but I seem to sense that the consensus is rather that this is the last step in the chain to take care of?

I'd welcome your input as to what your experience on this topic.

Thanks

 

Not sure if my line conditioner improved SQ, but it removed the nasty RFI I had, see my response above to Ralf11.

[fas42]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

use the term transparency if you like - I posted on the notorious veil in another thread a minute ago

 

I am going to assume you did not do blind testing, tho correct that if it is wrong, but I'm still interested in your impressions

 

Did you hear anything when no music was playing?

 

And, in what type of music did you hear an improvement?  orchestral? or other high DR?

 

 

 

Transparency is a good one.

 

No, I don't hear any noise when the track is musically quiet - if there is a strong acoustic encoded in the recording then I might be be tuning into the sound of that. But I am not aware of the system in itself being noisy in any fashion - the only example I can think of in the ones I've played with over the years is the current NAD combo: in the very early stages of sorting it out there was a period when it did sound noisy, there was an electronics "hissiness" which then disappeared as it steadily improved.

 

All types of music benefit, from the most dynamical extreme, to highly restrained classical - that key element of convincing life in the musical goings on is lifted in strength; that, which makes one want to keep listening, no matter what's playing.

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

George - you can hear the difference - can you describe it?

 

also, curious about music chosen (I'll guess there was little involving wah-wha pedals) and on your system in general...

 

Essentially, the same questions for both you gentlemen, or others.

 

Yeah, I can describe it. It's not something you notice when you don't have clean power, but it is something that you notice the LACK OF when you do have clean power. IOW, I never realized that my system had this graininess to the upper midrange and treble region until it was gone. That's the best way to describe it, a coarseness in these regions that is kind of the aural equivalent of emulsion grain in a 35mm photograph, especially one that has been enlarged to 8 X 10. It's something that most people would likely never notice until they saw the same scene shot with an 8 X 10 view camera. Then they would notice the grain in a 35mm print instantly. On top of noticing the grain in the 35mm print, they would never be able to look at that print again without seeing the grain immediately! That's the way my system sounds with and without the transformer in the mains circuit. I.E., I never noticed the grain before I installed the transformer, now I hear it instantly when the transformer is not in the system.

[fas42]

40 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 On top of noticing the grain in the 35mm print, they would never be able to look at that print again without seeing the grain immediately! That's the way my system sounds with and without the transformer in the mains circuit. I.E., I never noticed the grain before I installed the transformer, now I hear it instantly when the transformer is not in the system.

 

Yes, that's the way with a lot of the improvements that one can make with systems. One doesn't realise that there is a disturbing, audible quality in the sound - until you do something that gets rid of it. And from then on you always notice it - this figures in almost every area of the audio adventure. The good news is that when all of these "unknowns" are dealt with, then glorious, convincing playback emerges - there are no downsides!!

[Middy]

To use a musical quote for a change. .

"I can see clearly now the rain has gone"

[Ralf11]

George - can you describe your system?

 

I am esp. curious if these benefits occur in all-analog system... (to see if some new Schiit might solve the problem at lower cost and size if it is only a digital issue).

[Speedskater]

Any power line quality changes will be situation specific.

A few of the things that can change the situation:

a] Nearby appliances.

b] High-tech lighting systems.

c] Heating & AC systems.

d] Other entertainment systems.

e] Computers.

f] Other hi-fi components.

 

And just how it will sound depends on how well your components can deal with low quality AC power.

[cjf]

I've used a Torus Power RM20 Iso Transformer for about a year on my amps only. It worked well on lower current draw amps but when I changed amps to something much hungrier for power I noticed a bit of chubbiness to the bass. If I weren't so picky about bass performance I probably wouldn't have even noticed the Torus's presence in my system (which is a good thing..IMO). I think the ideal unit is one that gets completely out of the way and only gets rid of the bad stuff on the power line in addition to protecting your equipment. Such a unit is pretty much a Unicorn these days.

 

I'm now just going straight into a dedicated 20A outlet for the new amps and things sound better. Both mono blocks are sharing the same 20A outlet.

 

I think things change a bit though when you look at front end components. My Shunyata Denali 6000T was an eye opener when I installed it for my front end gear. Def much better sounding then going straight into the wall for that gear.

 

I may try another Denali for use with my amps given the very positive outcome I experienced with using one on the front end gear. My biggest concern is not currently having any surge protection for the amps despite them sounding better being straight into the wall then they did when plugged into the Torus.

 

I guess at some point a sacrifice will need to be made, sleep better at night knowing there is some form of surge protection in the chain or roll the dice and continue enjoying the sound offered by unrestricted current flow to the amps while keeping fingers crossed.

[gmgraves]

7 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

George - can you describe your system?

 

I am esp. curious if these benefits occur in all-analog system... (to see if some new Schiit might solve the problem at lower cost and size if it is only a digital issue).

 

OK. System #1, the one with the transformer: Harman-Kardon HK 990 Dual Mono Integrated amp, J. A, Michelle Gyro SE Turntable (with DC motor upgrade) and Jelco 750 tone-arm with Grado Reference V2 Statement Cartridge. Martin Logan Vista ESL speakers and dual Aethena P1 Subwoofers. Sony XA777ES SACD player, Otari DTR-8S DAT recorder, Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, Otari MX-5050 reel-to-reel. Logitech Squeezebox Touch music client. 

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, cjf said:

I've used a Torus Power RM20 Iso Transformer for about a year on my amps only. It worked well on lower current draw amps but when I changed amps to something much hungrier for power I noticed a bit of chubbiness to the bass. If I weren't so picky about bass performance I probably wouldn't have even noticed the Torus's presence in my system (which is a good thing..IMO). I think the ideal unit is one that gets completely out of the way and only gets rid of the bad stuff on the power line in addition to protecting your equipment. Such a unit is pretty much a Unicorn these days.

 

I'm now just going straight into a dedicated 20A outlet for the new amps and things sound better. Both mono blocks are sharing the same 20A outlet.

 

I think things change a bit though when you look at front end components. My Shunyata Denali 6000T was an eye opener when I installed it for my front end gear. Def much better sounding then going straight into the wall for that gear.

 

I may try another Denali for use with my amps given the very positive outcome I experienced with using one on the front end gear. My biggest concern is not currently having any surge protection for the amps despite them sounding better being straight into the wall then they did when plugged into the Torus.

 

I guess at some point a sacrifice will need to be made, sleep better at night knowing there is some form of surge protection in the chain or roll the dice and continue enjoying the sound offered by unrestricted current flow to the amps while keeping fingers crossed.

 

I suspect that your RM-20 is too small for the job of powering your amps. Try a larger one.

[Ralf11]

Thx - does the power conditioner affect SQ on analog as well as digital?

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Thx - does the power conditioner affect SQ on analog as well as digital?

 

Since you refuse (for some reason) to quote the post to which you are responding, I can only guess that thi is meant for me. I don't know that power conditioners affect digital at all. I do know that amps and pre-amps sound better with clean mains power.

[kennyb123]

On 7/15/2017 at 8:20 AM, pam1975 said:

hi,

I'd like to know if you believe power conditioners (eg PS Audio P5) are adding a significant bump in SQ or rather a marginal one and there are more important elements to address first.

I've read mixed opinions on the topic - a few people believe it all starts there but I seem to sense that the consensus is rather that this is the last step in the chain to take care of?

I'd welcome your input as to what your experience on this topic.

Thanks

 

The Shunyata Denali that I added recently  may have been my most musically-significant upgrade in the last 10 years - more so than any DAC or server upgrade.  I was stunned to find that for all these years I had been listening through a haze that has been  dulling tone colors and obscuring details. I was something that effective for the cost had been available years ago.

 

I should point out that not all conditioners are equal.  The Nordost/Quantum stuff I used previously barely made a dent relative to the Shunyata products.  

 

I consider proper power distribution as something that's foundational.  I'm not sure one can take in the full measure of how good one's components really are unless care has been taken to properly power them.

 

I should also add that friends who came over to hear my system after the Denali agreed that my system had made a "quantum leap".  The improvement was not subtle.

[pam1975]

thanks a lot guys - someone earlier mentioned that a power regenerator was going to be more appropriate than a conditioner. Why is this? 

[cjf]

6 hours ago, pam1975 said:

thanks a lot guys - someone earlier mentioned that a power regenerator was going to be more appropriate than a conditioner. Why is this? 

I would say this is just one persons opinion more then anything else. All responses here fall into that category.

 

A regen type unit may make sense if your area is known for power delivery sags, brown outs and the like. I avoid these units myself since I haven't met one that wasn't power limiting, transparent or built well enough to provide long term trouble free, silent operation. Too many parts and pieces to potentially fail IMO.

 

Even the good Isolation transformers develop a hum after a while that gets louder over time. Given the weight of many of these devices it becomes a real challenge to send it back for repair if the need arises. Im going all passive this time around for many reasons like better reliability, smaller size, less weight and less "stuff" in the path between wall and component.

 

Just another opinion in the sea of opinions.

 

[Ralf11]

well, I'll take an expert opinion over the garden variety type any day

 

then there are opinions on audio components formed based on reliable scientific testing (double-blinded, statistically significant, etc), followed by those of very careful listeners who have compared several items, etc.

 

no opinion on the regenerator, however I've always wanted a transmogrifier...

[kennyb123]

On 7/19/2017 at 9:06 AM, pam1975 said:

thanks a lot guys - someone earlier mentioned that a power regenerator was going to be more appropriate than a conditioner. Why is this? 

 

I'd encourage you to read the FAQ at Shunyata:  http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/support/faqs.  In particular take note of their emphasis on what they term DTCD (Dynamic Transient Current Delivery).  Shunyata places an emphasis on not restricting DTCD over reducing noise. This seems to me to be the right approach. Speaking for myself - transient performance makes all the difference in the world when it comes to making music sound "live'.

 

Regenerators are simply power amplifiers.  Dynamic transient current delivery will be limited by how well the regenerator can itself respond to transients.  I know the PS Audio regenerators have a loyal following, but I'd be reluctant to want to put anything in front of my components that might impede their ability to draw current instantaneously.  

 

The most astonishing thing to me about the Shunyata Denali was that it improved dynamics over the high-end power strip I has been using (Quantum QBase).  It seems counterintuitive that passing current though a conditioner could actually improve dynamics, doesn't it?  But clearly some dynamic compression had been occurring as a result of feeding my system through that single high-end power strip.  I think once one hears how well their system responds when instantaneous current is minimally impeded, it becomes difficult to recommend taking any steps that might harm that. 

[gmgraves]

26 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

I'd encourage you to read the FAQ at Shunyata:  http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/support/faqs.  In particular take note of their emphasis on what they term DTCD (Dynamic Transient Current Delivery).  Shunyata places an emphasis on not restricting DTCD over reducing noise. This seems to me to be the right approach. Speaking for myself - transient performance makes all the difference in the world when it comes to making music sound "live'.

 

Regenerators are simply power amplifiers.  Dynamic transient current delivery will be limited by how well the regenerator can itself respond to transients.  I know the PS Audio regenerators have a loyal following, but I'd be reluctant to want to put anything in front of my components that might impede their ability to draw current instantaneously.  

 

The most astonishing thing to me about the Shunyata Denali was that it improved dynamics over the high-end power strip I has been using (Quantum QBase).  It seems counterintuitive that passing current though a conditioner could actually improve dynamics, doesn't it?  But clearly some dynamic compression had been occurring as a result of feeding my system through that single high-end power strip.  I think once one hears how well their system responds when instantaneous current is minimally impeded, it becomes difficult to recommend taking any steps that might harm that. 

 

Shunyata's FAQs are more like FAiry tales than they are like FAQs. DTCD is marketing hype and means nothing. A components ability to provide enough current to provide proper transient response is the responsibility of that component's power supply. If the component's power supply is inadequate to provide the required instantaneous current for good transient response or, if the component's analog circuitry hasn't the slew rate to provide for good transient response, then all the power conditioning in the world is not going help. Most modern amps and preamps have slew-rates in the area of >10 volts/µsecond. That is plenty high enough to take care of any transients in the audio passband, no matter how fast they are.

 

Shunyata "Research" sell mouse milk and snake oil. You'd do well to steer clear.

[Speedskater]

Shunyata DTCD is the opposite of a power conditioner's line filter. Excessive high frequency response is not something that you want in an AC power system, all that;s up there is noise & interference. Plus it doesn't work, it's something like putting a few large links in a long chain, it doesn't make the chain any stronger.

[kennyb123]

54 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

A components ability to provide enough current to provide proper transient response is the responsibility of that component's power supply. If the component's power supply is inadequate to provide the required instantaneous current for good transient response or, if the component's analog circuitry hasn't the slew rate to provide for good transient response, then all the power conditioning in the world is not going help. Most modern amps and preamps have slew-rates in the area of >10 volts/µsecond. That is plenty high enough to take care of any transients in the audio passband, no matter how fast they are.

 

It is true that many components have the ability to adequately handle transients in the audio passband.  Shunyata's point is simply that one should be careful not to impede that ability.  

 

Those reading this thread can decide for themselves who is making the more compelling case with respect to Shunyata:  me, who owns their products and is absolutely thrilled with them; or you, who has put forth an argumentum ad hominem.

 

I consider the guys at Shunyata - Grant and Caelin - two of the best the audio industry has to offer.  They are generous with their time, willing to go out of their way to help both current and prospective customers, and offer fantastic products that offer an outstanding value relative to their competition.  

[Speedskater]

1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

 

It is true that many components have the ability to adequately handle transients in the audio passband.  Shunyata's point is simply that one should be careful not to impede that ability. 

It's not 1980 anymore. Any and all well designed components can:

handle transients in the audio passband.

[kennyb123]

27 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

It's not 1980 anymore. Any and all well designed components can:

handle transients in the audio passband.

 

I don't think it's a binary choice.  There are degrees of how well transients are handled.  

 

This became clear to me when I moved from a Krell amp to my current Spectral amp.  The Krell amp seemed not to rise as fast nor decay as quickly.  The whack of a mallet against a bass drum sounded much more like the real thing with the Spectral amp, for example.  The Krell was too slow to provide a realistic sense of the decay, leaving the whack less impactful.

 

I think some designers favor fidelity to the frequency domain sometimes at the expense of frequency in the time domain.  Some listeners are okay with that tradeoff.  Not me - I'm a drummer so fidelity in the time domain is more essential to me.  In light of that you can probably see why Shunyata's focus on products that enhance on dynamic transient performance appeal greatly to me.

 

I have a pretty high bar when it comes to what I consider handling transients adequately.  I've encountered too many components that don't meet that bar, hence my qualification in the post you quoted. 

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Shunyata DTCD is the opposite of a power conditioner's line filter. Excessive high frequency response is not something that you want in an AC power system, all that;s up there is noise & interference. Plus it doesn't work, it's something like putting a few large links in a long chain, it doesn't make the chain any stronger.

 

Exactly!

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

 

It is true that many components have the ability to adequately handle transients in the audio passband.  Shunyata's point is simply that one should be careful not to impede that ability.  

 

Those reading this thread can decide for themselves who is making the more compelling case with respect to Shunyata:  me, who owns their products and is absolutely thrilled with them; or you, who has put forth an argumentum ad hominem.

 

I consider the guys at Shunyata - Grant and Caelin - two of the best the audio industry has to offer.  They are generous with their time, willing to go out of their way to help both current and prospective customers, and offer fantastic products that offer an outstanding value relative to their competition.  

 

How, pray tell, is a power conditioner going to impede an amp or preamp's ability to adequately handle transients. The very job of a power conditioner is to not have any high-frequency capability. In a perfect world, a power conditioner would pass 50-60 Hz and no other frequency. That's how it cleans up the mains. It strips away switching transients, line noise and RF interference, by not letting them pass the conditioner. Shunyata Research is talking nonsense as per usual. These people aren't just charlatans, they are expensive charlatans. IOW, the P. T. Barnum of the audio world. W.C. Fields would be proud: "Never give a sucker an even break or smarten-up a chump!"