Experience with power conditioners?

[pam1975]

hi,

I'd like to know if you believe power conditioners (eg PS Audio P5) are adding a significant bump in SQ or rather a marginal one and there are more important elements to address first.

I've read mixed opinions on the topic - a few people believe it all starts there but I seem to sense that the consensus is rather that this is the last step in the chain to take care of?

I'd welcome your input as to what your experience on this topic.

Thanks

[Ralf11]

several people on here have bought used line transformers - not sure what to tell you to use for search terms

[ElviaCaprice]

Isolation transformer is what you want.  Go here for more information.

 

[pam1975]

thanks both, I take it that's also the Topaz isolation transformer that is mentioned in another topic, if I understand correctly?

[ElviaCaprice]

Just now, pam1975 said:

thanks both, I take it that's also the Topaz isolation transformer that is mentioned in another topic, if I understand correctly?

Yes, there are other brand names that work.  Read more on the thread I mentioned, especially when John S talks about effectiveness of power conditioners vs isolation transformers.

[pam1975]

perfect, thank you!

[semente]

I'd only use one to treat a real, audible problem and I would probably go for a regenerator.

In any case, try before you buy.

[fas42]

Have done experiments myself, creating DIY units  - they can form part of the answers; an audio friend just down the road has used them, the commercial isolation transformers, for years, and it's certainly easy to hear the benefit on his setup.

[Ralf11]

what's wrong with your power that a conditioner will fix?

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

what's wrong with your power that a conditioner will fix?

 

Simple answer is that audio gear is not sufficiently robust to reject noise coming in via the mains power feed - so, need more rejection; keep doing this until you can't hear audible differences.

 

I have found that it's very difficult to kill off any impact entirely - the real solution is to make the audio components more capable on the inside, which is not something taken very seriously, unfortunately.

[Ralf11]

How noisy is your power line?

[One and a half]

30 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

How noisy is your power line?

Totally depends on the devices connected to the power line. 

 

An incandescent lamp = 0.0000uV 

SMPS = mV of frequency to several MHz

 

Your choice! 

[Ralf11]

No, I am asking him to quantify or describe the noise on his powerline.

[fas42]

9 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

No, I am asking him to quantify or describe the noise on his powerline.

 

Sufficient to impact the perceived quality of the audio system - no numbers, the simple process of plugging and unplugging various "noisy" electrical devices on circuits in the home is the "tool" that tells me whether I have adequate 'robustness' or not. The noise coming in from externally is a meaningless thing to measure, because it will change every minute, depending upon what neighbours are doing.

 

The only solution is to assume extremely noisy, "dirty" power is all one has on tap, at any time. Then the job is to engineer the audio equipment so that it's completely impervious to that environment. As an example, a previous system was sensitive - as are many - to arcing somewhere in the mains circuit - you literally heard the noise of this directly in the speaker sound. So in this instance I designed a noise suppression filter for the mains - which did the job; no noises were then heard, even with severe injection of arcing interference.

[Ralf11]

Hiss?  or Hum?

 

[One and a half]

Quite right @fas42. If there is a problem, then use an engineered solution to overcome. 

 

The choice of a 'power conditioner' does not fully relate to how that device will work in an audio system. For one, the impedance drops like a stone, and the caps in power conditioners can create resonances that cause more problems. Caps are unforgiving as to filter harmonics unless they are tuned with the correct inductors, at worst they keep harmonics locked in the system. 

[One and a half]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Hiss?  or Hum?

 

Neither the power line is responsible for only connections that trap the unwary, or lousy amplifier design. 

[fas42]

48 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Hiss?  or Hum?

 

 

If you are referring to the sound manifested from the arcing this was a scratching noise, something like a cat at the front door wanting to get inside.

 

The typical impact from noisy or poor quality mains is not hiss or hum, it's a drop off in quality, some of the sparkle and life in the playback goes missing ... imagine someone covering the tweeter with a heavy layer of cloth; it's an artifact that has that type of presence, subjectively.

[Ralf11]

So, when you remove the noise coming in via the mains power feed, it sounds as if a veil over the music has been lifted?

[One and a half]

3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

So, when you remove the noise coming in via the mains power feed, it sounds as if a veil over the music has been lifted?

You are a poor poster, not quoting any text to derive an answer, leaving responses open ended and guessing. Use the Quote button.

[Ralf11]

are you unable to read the post above mine?

[fas42]

41 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

So, when you remove the noise coming in via the mains power feed, it sounds as if a veil over the music has been lifted?

 

Ahhh, the notorious audiophile "veil" - not really, I just thought of another analogy: an audio friend down the road does both vinyl and file player systems; on the vinyl it might kick off nicely on an LP, then it starts to go dead, it loses its mojo - what's going on?! Aha!! Lift the cartridge, a big wad of fluff is firmly wrapped about the business end - carefully remove, needle down again ... and SQ restored.

 

That sort of thing - so, we're getting rid of system "fluff" ...

[gmgraves]

On 7/15/2017 at 0:37 PM, Ralf11 said:

several people on here have bought used line transformers - not sure what to tell you to use for search terms

That's what I have. It's a big medical equipment transformer, weighs about 60 pounds (27 Kilos). Each huge end bell contains oil-filled capacitors. The secondary side end bell has a medical-grade mains receptacle on it with two plugs. NOTHING other than 60 Hz 120 Volt AC mains gets through it. The primary, viewed with an o'scope might look nasty, with all kinds of switching spikes, and line noise riding on it, but the secondary is as clean as a new penny. No spikes, no switching noise, no line noise, just a pure 60 Hz sine wave. And yes, you can hear the difference! Expensive line cords as big as a newborn baby's leg and costing thousands of dollars might be mouse milk, but believe me a big medical grade isolation transformer is for real! I bought mine, after looking longingly at it for years in a surplus electronics shop. When said shop was going out of business, I paid them one last visit. They had a US$175 price tag on it which is why it never sold in all those years. The last time I was in the shop, there was a big sign over the counter: "Everything must go - no reasonable offer refused!" I went back, picked up the transformer and plopped it on the counter. "Fifty Bucks!", I said. "Sixty", said the proprietor. "Done!" said I, pulling out my wallet. Best $60 I've ever spent (on audio, that is!). 

[Ralf11]

14 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Ahhh, the notorious audiophile "veil" - not really, I just thought of another analogy: an audio friend down the road does both vinyl and file player systems; on the vinyl it might kick off nicely on an LP, then it starts to go dead, it loses its mojo - what's going on?! Aha!! Lift the cartridge, a big wad of fluff is firmly wrapped about the business end - carefully remove, needle down again ... and SQ restored.

 

That sort of thing - so, we're getting rid of system "fluff" ...

 

use the term transparency if you like - I posted on the notorious veil in another thread a minute ago

 

I am going to assume you did not do blind testing, tho correct that if it is wrong, but I'm still interested in your impressions

 

Did you hear anything when no music was playing?

 

And, in what type of music did you hear an improvement?  orchestral? or other high DR?

 

 

[Ralf11]

George - you can hear the difference - can you describe it?

 

also, curious about music chosen (I'll guess there was little involving wah-wha pedals) and on your system in general...

 

Essentially, the same questions for both you gentlemen, or others.