Amir at ASR claims Uptone won't sell the ISO regen to him...

[Albrecht]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

I don't need a blind test to tell me that my power amp works and is needed. If I connect the preamp directly to the speakers, I don't get any sound. I also know how an amp works. However, I have not examined the circuit diagrams for the specific model I use. I trust Marantz did reasonable job designing it, and I don't detect any obvious flaws. In other words, I know what the amp is supposed to do and why, and I can easily verify that mine does more or less what it should.

 

When someone comes along trying to sell me some widget that's supposed to make things "better" in unspecified ways through unspecified means, forgive me if respond with scepticism.

""When someone comes along trying to sell me some widget that's supposed to make things "better" in unspecified ways through unspecified means, forgive me if respond with scepticism."'

 

Well, -  that's never ever happened before. So, - we're all good!

[firedog]

2 hours ago, jtwrace said:

The study that I have from Harman on this is quite amazing but again nearly all people here would pass it off since it's science based.  

I really like Harman's work. They are one of the ew actors in the industry doing real listening tests and trying to understanding how we perceive what we hear.

In fact, now that you mention it, I think one of the places I read about listeners preferring the sound of more jitter in playback was in a Hartman report about testing they'd done. Maybe I can find it.

[crenca]

3 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

I find that ridiculous. The situation is far more complex and nuanced then that, and I really have no use for such misplaced obsessions and misinformation. Thus you get to join my 'Ignored Users' list 

 

BAHHH!!!!!!  This is without a doubt the funniest thing I have read yet on this thread  

 

A sincere thank you!

 

 

[Jud]

7 minutes ago, mansr said:

When someone comes along trying to sell me some widget that's supposed to make things "better" in unspecified ways through unspecified means, forgive me if respond with scepticism.

 

Do you think it would be fair to say you are skeptical of the ways and means that have been offered in explanation, rather than that they are totally unspecified?

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

In each listening test the ISO Regen was the only addition to "straight" USB cable.  If the ISO Regen had no effect, then USB cable plus "audible zero" (G version) should equal USB cable plus "audible zero" (M version).  At least that's what I'm thinking.  What are you thinking that's different?

Since you didn't compare against a plain cable, it's possible that the "good" device did nothing and the bad one made things worse. Or that both made it worse to different degrees.

[jtwrace]

1 minute ago, firedog said:

I really like Harman's work. They are one of the ew actors in the industry doing real listening tests and trying to understanding how we perceive what we hear.

In fact, now that you mention it, I think one of the places I read about listeners preferring the sound of more jitter in playback was in a Hartman report about testing they'd done. Maybe I can find it.

All I can say is if you ever have the chance to do what I did do it.  Of course you don't have to do the buying part.  

[christopher3393]

1 hour ago, crenca said:

I am not familiar with Bernstein - what are his "suggestions"?

 

http://blogs.stlawu.edu/metaphilosophy10/files/2010/01/Richard-Bernstein-Beyond-Objectivism.pdf

 

pp.46-49 are suggestive. 

[Jud]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

Since you didn't compare against a plain cable, it's possible that the "good" device did nothing and the bad one made things worse. Or that both made it worse to different degrees.

 

I did, and liked the ISO Regen much better, but that was not blinded in any way, thus subject to potential non-random bias in favor of the ISO Regen.

 

Edit: ISO Regen(s) - I liked both much better than straight USB cable.

[mansr]

Just now, Jud said:

Do you think it would be fair to say you are skeptical of the ways and means that have been offered in explanation, rather than that they are totally unspecified?

Nobody has explained how a slightly cleaner USB signal translates into audibly better analogue output from the DAC. There's only been hand-waving and speculation.

 

The be clear, I do not dispute the utility of an isolation feature in some situations. My own measurements upthread show as much. However, they also show that a DAC retailing for less than half the price of the ISO Regen isn't bothered by the same conditions. In other words, the ISO Regen doesn't strike me as a cost-effective solution.

[Norton]

25 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

In each listening test the ISO Regen was the only addition to "straight" USB cable.  If the ISO Regen had no effect, then USB cable plus "audible zero" (G version) should equal USB cable plus "audible zero" (M version).  At least that's what I'm thinking.  What are you thinking that's different?

Isn't the point though that your test didn't provide for a third option  to listen without either device present and for you to prefer that option?  You might have preferred G simply because at best  it had no effect on SQ whatsoever, while M had a clearly perceptible negative effect.  

[Jud]

17 minutes ago, mansr said:

I don't need a blind test to tell me that my power amp works and is needed. If I connect the preamp directly to the speakers, I don't get any sound. I also know how an amp works. However, I have not examined the circuit diagrams for the specific model I use. I trust Marantz did reasonable job designing it, and I don't detect any obvious flaws. In other words, I know what the amp is supposed to do and why, and I can easily verify that mine does more or less what it should.

 

Were less expensive amps meeting the minimum requirements of your system available?

[Jud]

Just now, Norton said:

Isn't the point though that your test didn't provide for a third option  to listen without either device present and for you to prefer that option?  You might have preferred G simply because at best  it had no effect on SQ whatsoever, while M had a perceived  negative effect.

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31999-amir-at-asr-claims-uptone-wont-sell-the-iso-regen-to-him/?page=24#comment-671871

[Albrecht]

13 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Well yes, manufactures have an agenda (sell more stuff, make more money, etc.) and consumers have an agenda (get more and better stuff for less money, etc.).  My point in this multi-faceted and grand debate about what is audiophile and what is not, what sounds better and what does not, measurements and "objective" SQ vs. artisan SQ and the "subjective" - in the midst of all this it is the manufactures who (generally) have the high ground vs the consumers because of the reasons I cited.  They play both sides of the coin better the consumer, on average.  So we get to sound like a bunch of back biting personal internet trolls (on average) and the manufactures, propted up by the "audiophile press", occupy the more reasonable, dispassionate high ground.  This is simply the optics...

I agree with you on many things, but I read in your post a rather negative viewpoint of manufacturers. In my experiences traveling the halls & rooms at CES, - I have a different viewpoint. Most manufacturers that i have encountered face to face believe that they have insight into a "great sounding" component that enhances the listening experience and want to share it. Many of these designers have great sound and great listening experiences as their goal with making money as secondary. Mostly, - these people are not getting rich, - and often, - not their main source of income. Especially in these tough times & the death of the middle class, parts costs are skyrocketing, while disposable income is diminishing. Many designer/manufacturers have gone out of business.

[crenca]

13 minutes ago, christopher3393 said:

 

http://blogs.stlawu.edu/metaphilosophy10/files/2010/01/Richard-Bernstein-Beyond-Objectivism.pdf

 

pp.46-49 are suggestive. 

 

Wonderful Christopher3393!  Just read p. 46-49.  I like how he points out in his own way that Aristotle never escaped the earlier (Platonic) dialectic.  Realism (if it is to be a "beyond" the modern objectivist/realist dialectic) will have to escape the earlier dialectic in my opinion.  He appears to be claiming to do just that, so I will now have to read the whole paper...

[mansr]

11 minutes ago, Jud said:

Were less expensive amps meeting the minimum requirements of your system available?

It wasn't very expensive, and I have better things to do than compare specs for every amp on the market.

[plissken]

I would still like to see if a GTG is doable. While we are a dispersed group I wonder if a # of us are in driving distance of a member that could host. I'm in the KentuckyIndy area.

[mansr]

Just now, plissken said:

I would still like to see if a GTG is doable. While we are a dispersed group I wonder if a # of us are in driving distance of a member that could host. I'm in the KentuckyIndy area.

Hampshire, England here. A bit too far for driving.

[plissken]

27 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Do you think it would be fair to say you are skeptical of the ways and means that have been offered in explanation, rather than that they are totally unspecified?

 

You mean as in 'guessing'?

[Albrecht]

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

You mean as in 'guessing'?

 

 

[crenca]

6 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

I agree with you on many things, but I read in your post a rather negative viewpoint of manufacturers. In my experiences traveling the halls & rooms at CES, - I have a different viewpoint. Most manufacturers that i have encountered face to face believe that they have insight into a "great sounding" component that enhances the listening experience and want to share it. Many of these designers have great sound and great listening experiences as their goal with making money as secondary. Mostly, - these people are not getting rich, - and often, - not their main source of income. Especially in these tough times & the death of the middle class, parts costs are skyrocketing, while disposable income is diminishing. Many designer/manufacturers have gone out of business.

 

I agree with you, and I know manufactures (on average) are not "bad".  I am simply saying that in the current situation, they have it good in terms of this debate.  They are born "on the good side of the tracks" so to speak, and that we consumers are at a circumstantial disadvantage when it comes said debate.  So the optics of the debate is always going to put threads like this on the wrong side of the tracks - it is always "a war" and about unicorns, etc.

 

 

 

[crenca]

9 minutes ago, plissken said:

I would still like to see if a GTG is doable. While we are a dispersed group I wonder if a # of us are in driving distance of a member that could host. I'm in the KentuckyIndy area.

 

I still have family in Louisville area, and make it out there about once a year...

[plissken]

22 minutes ago, mansr said:

 However, they also show that a DAC retailing for less than half the price of the ISO Regen isn't bothered by the same conditions. In other words, the ISO Regen doesn't strike me as a cost-effective solution.

 

Every time I've made that point the subjectivists gloss over it. If the Regen does something to improve your DAC due to S.I. then either your DAC or source is defective regardless of cost.

 

I'm moving into the camp of just suggesting Ethernet derived devices based on my testing.

[plissken]

1 minute ago, crenca said:

 

I still have family in Louisville area, and make it out there about once a year...

 

I would be happy to host. Just need some others if possible. If not that's fine too.

[Albrecht]

1 minute ago, crenca said:

 

  So the optics of the debate is always going to put threads like this on the wrong side of the tracks - it is always "a war" and about unicorns, etc.

 

 

 

I hear you. Thanks for explaining.

In a way, - these are kind of like "tweaks" where it's both tough to quantify when listening; and tough to measure. OTOH, I find that what they are doing is mitigating issues with the USB bus. In that the USB bus (and output too) is designed for many functions, (mice, hard drives, etc). That USB bus is not designed for audio alone, - and certainly not high performance audio. If one doesn't have a high performance audio system, one isn't going to buy a $500 set of spring-loaded, super bouncy, earthquake proof, feets to put under their CD player/DAC either.

 

Somebody will call a DAC that doesn't have an USB bus mitigation factors built in to the DAC itself a poorly designed DAC. But a DAC manufacturer will likely not be able to encounter several factors/issues with different computers/file players. Yes, - all the details aren't there. But (from where I sit) there are quite reasonable deductions and affects produced throughout a broad range of DACs in the areas of Signal Integrity, Galvanic Isolation, & clean power. At least a couple of these have presented themselves in traditional CD playback.

But I guess by writing such I am weighing in on one side of the debate.

 

Bottom line, (and I'm not trying to be holier-than-though), but I don't advocate going in and stomping all over someone's 2004 Dell Optiplex desktop running iTunes with a $196 Sony CD player & amp & DDC & telling them the Iso-Regen is the greatest thing ever in audio. It simply isn't going to make a difference there. But please don't come out and beat the crap out of me when it's obvious that it works great in my totally different system.

I have $13,000 (retail) speakers, but I'm also realizing some significant benefits from running a cheap-assed $200 DDC. There are pictures all over the Internets of the Glavanic Isolation circuitry, - it's been measured, - it's been verified by listening.

 

Cheers,

 

[Jud]

24 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I'm moving into the camp of just suggesting Ethernet derived devices based on my testing.

 

I don't think anything with an Ethernet input does what I want (with regard to running filters of my choice) just yet.  Hopefully at some point in the near future.