Just got a Yggdrasil!

[Samuel T Cogley]

7 minutes ago, patagent said:

 

Did OP produce graphs?  If he did then you're reasoning is valid.  Otherwise, his first hand impressions and no more or less valid than Mani's first hand impressions (which he has made known).

 

I'm not following you.  Mani did not perform the measurements and has only JA's "reputation" as a measure of accuracy and validity.  They are being presented as "factually correct information", when they could certainly be characterized as, "produced by an industry insider with any number of possible biases".

[patagent]

1 minute ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I'm not following you.  Mani did not perform the measurements and has only JA's "reputation" as a measure of accuracy and validity.  They are being presented as "factually correct information", when they could certainly be characterized as "produced by an industry insider with any number of possible biases".

 

You made a distinction between the OP's first hand insights and Mani's use of JA's measurements ("second hand").  That's true except Mani has also first hand insights on the Yggy which he is trying to support using the second hand measurement.  If Mani's intentions are not malicious (which is a possibility), he should be commended not assaulted over the internet.

[Samuel T Cogley]

33 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

This thread has run its course and has veered so far off the original posters intent that it should be closed. I would suggest that Mani start his own thread. On most other forums I post on, this would have been taken care of by the moderator. It is too bad that it has had to go this far off course. 

 

I think the dead of this thread is what Mani had in mind the whole time...

[JoeWhip]

I know far too many of the magazine reviewers to take anything  they say as gospel, whether I like the particular product or not. There are some I don't listen to at all. I respect JA to a point but do not consider him to be the final word on anything.

[JoeWhip]

Time to drive up to Reading to see the Jeff Hamilton Trio. Hopefully I won't hear any of that glitchy energy during the show,

[Samuel T Cogley]

2 minutes ago, patagent said:

 

You made a distinction between the OP's first hand insights and Mani's use of JA's measurements ("second hand").  That's true except Mani has also first hand insights on the Yggy which he is trying to support using the second hand measurement.  If Mani's intentions are not malicious (which is a possibility), he should be commended not assaulted over the internet.

 

Mani's apparent zeal in slagging the Yggy in this thread makes me rather skeptical of his ability to provide an unbiased opinion.  YMMV, of course.

 

I will concede, he has an awesome sound system (at least, that's what I've read) and apparently has some friends here on the forum.

[patagent]

6 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Mani's apparent zeal in slagging the Yggy in this thread makes me rather skeptical of his ability to provide an unbiased opinion.  YMMV, of course.

 

I will concede, he has an awesome sound system (at least, that's what I've read) and apparently has some friends here on the forum.

 

As a third party observer, I see zeal fromSchiit owners as well.  If the concern is- Mani is maliciously bringing down the resale value of the Yggy by spreading false data then I can understand the zeal (somewhat).  The sense I get is- "I hate Mani because he just criticized my perfect firstborn."  

[hornytoad]

Just now, patagent said:

 

As a third party observer, I see zeal on Schiit owners as well.  If the concern is- Mani is maliciously bringing down the resale value of the Yggy by spreading false data then I can understand the zeal (somewhat).  The sense I get is- "I hate Mani because he just criticized my perfect firstborn."  

Mani has said the Chord 2 qute is awesome(and I do believe it is very good ) and said it is better than the Yggy. 

 

I can tell you that I listened to both for over a year and I completely disagree with that assessment as I felt the Yggy was superior in every way. I sold the Chord 2 qute but still liked it.

 

So based on his comparison of these two dacs , I give little weight to his opinions.  

[manisandher]

9 minutes ago, patagent said:

If Mani's intentions are not malicious (which is a possibility)...

 

I received an email earlier from someone I don't know. Here it is, with my reply below (sender's name removed):

 

Mani:

 

I'm beginning the shopping process for a DAC under $2500.

 

The reviews for Yggy are incredibly positive, and I was set on it, but saw your post here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/31284-just-got-a-yggdrasil/?do=findComment&comment=647384

 

And this: “While the processor's analog circuitry is superbly well designed, its digital circuitry appears to have problems with high-level, high-frequency tones, and with the LSBs of 24-bit data. It's possible, of course, that the former will be rare with music, and that the latter will be obscured by the noise floors of recordings. But it does look as if the digital circuitry is not fully optimized. Hopefully, this could be addressed with a firmware upgrade.—John Atkinson” (Please see it here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-audio-yggdrasil-da-processor-measurements)

 

It was like a cold shower, and stopped me dead…

 

Could you please give me a hand here and name a few alternatives, including the one you always refer to as your “regular DAC”, you prefer to Yggy?

 

I trust your opinion, and would appreciate your help very much indeed, Mani!

 

Respectfully,

 

Hi,

 

Is there any way you could audition the Yggy? I’m not sure where you live, but my understanding is that in many countries they offer a refund policy if it doesn’t work out for you. Just because I didn’t like it doesn’t mean you won’t.

 

I don’t think my own DAC is really an alternative to the Yggy – it’s a lot more expensive and needs to be used in a particular way for optimal results. But I’ve read great things about the Holo Spring DAC, and the T&A DAC. I quite liked the Chord 2Qute which I had here for a while, but it needs to be used with a really good power supply for best results.

 

I hope this helps. Good luck with your search!

 

Cheers,

Mani.

 

 

[patagent]

8 minutes ago, hornytoad said:

Mani has said the Chord 2 qute is awesome(and I do believe it is very good ) and said it is better than the Yggy. 

 

I can tell you that I listened to both for over a year and I completely disagree with that assessment as I felt the Yggy was superior in every way. I sold the Chord 2 qute but still liked it.

 

So based on his comparison of these two dacs , I give little weight to his opinions.  

 

Could it be that you are both right?  That on your system Yggy is superior but in his system the Chord is?  Or that you guys have different genetic makeup which allows you to hear certain frequencies better/worse?  For example, I can smell a strange odor from my pee after eating asparagus.  Apparently, this is a genetic-based ability that roughly 40% of the population have.  Or maybe you prefer the color blue but he prefers the color red?  What we like or don't like is highly subjective.

[hornytoad]

2 minutes ago, patagent said:

 

Could it be that you are both right?  That on your system Yggy is superior but in his system the Chord is?  Or that you guys have different different genetic makeup which allows you to hear certain frequencies better/worse?  For example, I can smell a strange odor from my pee after eating asparagus.  Apparently, this is a genetic-based ability that roughly 40% of the population have.  Or maybe you prefer the color blue but he prefers the color red?  What we like or don't like is highly subjective.

I tried them  both on four different systems that I have in my house and each time I felt the Yggy was better. Yeah I agree that dacs can be system dependent though. 

 

[semente]

3 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I don't know and don't care what or if he has anything to gain. The last time this all came up, he did seem to be working rather closely with the maker of his DAC. Maybe their is some issue there for him.

 

But it doesn't matter. What matters is that he brings this crap up all over again when I am sure he knew it would be controversial. This magical recoding he made. How real is that. How come there is a problem in that recoding yet 99% of the people that own the DAC never have issues with the tracks they listen too. I don't get you and Jud defending him like this. I too feel like this is some kind of "old timers club".

 

But you'd rather have a Schiit (or any other brand) "fanboy" club instead? 

That is not what I would expect from a public, plural, "polytheist" audio forum...

[Samuel T Cogley]

Just now, patagent said:

 

As a third party observer, I see zeal on Schiit owners as well.  If the concern is- Mani is maliciously bringing down the resale value of the Yggy by spreading false data then I can understand the zeal (somewhat).  The sense I get is- "I hate Mani because he just criticized my perfect firstborn."  

 

"hate" is hyperbole.  I question his motives for posting in this thread, no doubt.

 

You have to understand the context:  Schiit products are specifically designed and sold to a market segment that is disillusioned with the stodgy "old school" of audiophilia.  I think a very strong case can be made that the "old school" embraces overpriced gear and there is a certain snob factor.  Schiit's core marketing message is something like, "if you're fed up with those snobs, this gear is for you".  While I would never suggest that Schiit's gear is something like "the best", often, "the best" is nothing more than super high priced stuff shrouded in mythical technobabble and enthusiastically supported by the "old school" elite.

 

This metaphoric "middle finger" to institutions like Stereophile (and by extension, many of their clients) will invariably attract derision from the "old school".  And I can assure you that from the audio forums that I frequent, Schiit certainly has generated a LOT of animus.  But they've also sold a LOT of gear.  And they embrace the animus as a way to show that they're successful and generate even more sales.

 

So this isn't about "perfect firstborn", it's about slagging a $2300 DAC that has a lot of happy listeners.  I'm not trying to make an argumentum ad populum, I'm simply trying to suggest that the allegedly pure intentions of Mani might not be what they seem.  He certainly seems to be a proud member of the "old school" elite.  And that's precisely the demographic that seethes at Schiit's very existence.  And apparently, he felt duty bound to come into the thread and be a counter to the OP's review.  In the process, whatever intent the OP had has been completely destroyed.  And that's what I think was Mani's intent all along.  The results are indisputable, regardless of intent.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

A glowing example of the kind of ever-so-slightly-below-the-radar trolling that the forum management is allowing Mani to engage in.

 

I learned a great deal about Computer Audiophile today. 

 

We are all adults here. If you want to be sensored for your opinion, you'll have to look elsewhere. 

[Samuel T Cogley]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

We are all adults here. If you want to be sensored for your opinion, you'll have to look elsewhere. 

 

I'm trying my best to stay on the right side of the "civil" line.  And it's "censored"

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

What does the crossover distortion sound like?

The Yggy's "glitch" sounds like nothing, because you can't hear it (and it's not exactly crossover distortion. If you look closely you'll see that it's not at the zero-crossing point, but rather it's a little positive). But if you want to hear REAL crossover distortion, find an old, functioning Dynaco Stereo 120. It's the real thing and is caused by the the fact that the S120 tends to run heavily Class B. This means that that one half of the 2N3055 output pair stops conducting before the other half starts conducting. The reason for this seems to be that the transistors of the era were slow to turn on and off, I don't know to what to attribute the glitch that Atkinson found in the Yggy, Some say it's attributed to the DAC chips and others say that Atkinson goofed and the Yggy "glitch" really isn't there... I don't know.

[Samuel T Cogley]

5 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

The Yggy's "glitch" sounds like nothing, because you can't hear it (and it's not exactly crossover distortion. If you look closely you'll see that it's not at the zero-crossing point, but rather it's a little positive). But if you want to hear REAL crossover distortion, find an old, functioning Dynaco Stereo 120. It's the real thing and is caused by the the fact that the S120 tends to run heavily Class B. This means that that one half of the 2N3055 output pair stops conducting before the other half starts conducting. The reason for this seems to be that the transistors of the era were slow to turn on and off, I don't know to what to attribute the glitch that Atkinson found in the Yggy, Some say it's attributed to the DAC chips and others say that Atkinson goofed and the Yggy "glitch" really isn't there... I don't know.

 

There was a thread (might have been here) where Moffat acknowledged the glitch.  I seem to recall his response to the person who claimed to have heard it was, "you don't have golden ears, you have platinum ears".

 

Found it:

 

OMFG, it was Mani!  Dude's got a real axe to grind there!

[hornytoad]

2 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

There was a thread (might have been here) where Moffat acknowledged the glitch.  I seem to recall his response to the person who claimed to have heard it was, "you don't have golden ears, you have platinum ears".

 

He was responding  to .....drum roll... and this may shock you..... Mani. LOl. I certainly can't hear it. 

[patagent]

11 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

"hate" is hyperbole.  I question his motives for posting in this thread, no doubt.

 

You have to understand the context:  Schiit products are specifically designed and sold to a market segment that is disillusioned with the stodgy "old school" of audiophilia.  I think a very strong case can be made that the "old school" embraces overpriced gear and there is a certain snob factor.  Schiit's core marketing message is something like, "if you're fed up with those snobs, this gear is for you".  While I would never suggest that Schiit's gear is something like "the best", often, "the best" is nothing more than super high priced stuff shrouded in mythical technobabble and enthusiastically supported by the "old school" elite.

 

This metaphoric "middle finger" to institutions like Stereophile (and by extension, many of their clients) will invariably attract derision from the "old school".  And I can assure you that from the audio forums that I frequent, Schiit certainly has generated a LOT of animus.  But they've also sold a LOT of gear.  And they embrace the animus as a way to show that they're successful and generate even more sales.

 

So this isn't about "perfect firstborn", it's about slagging a $2300 DAC that has a lot of happy listeners.  I'm not trying to make an argumentum ad populum, I'm simply trying to suggest that the allegedly pure intentions of Mani might not be what they seem.  He certainly seems to be a proud member of the "old school" elite.  And that's precisely the demographic that seethes at Schiit's very existence.  And apparently, he felt duty bound to come into the thread and be a counter to the OP's review.  In the process, whatever intent the OP had has been completely destroyed.  And that's what I think was Mani's intent all along.  The results are indisputable, regardless of intent.

 

It sounds like what you're saying is that the Yggy is the anti-establishment DAC that has way more substance than Donald Trump.  I can appreciate the context but you might be overestimating Mani's impact.  People here are smart and know to trust their own ears not some random internet poster.  

 

I might be in the market for a $2,000 DAC in the near future and would definitely consider Yggy (will hear it for myself first hand) because I'll be the one deriving listening pleasure from it not anyone else.

[Samuel T Cogley]

2 minutes ago, patagent said:

 

It sounds like what you're saying is that the Yggy is the anti-establishment DAC that has way more substance than Donald Trump.  I can appreciate the context but you might be overestimating Mani's impact.  People here are smart and know to trust their own ears not some random internet poster.  

 

I might be in the market for a $2,000 DAC in the near future and would definitely consider Yggy (will hear it for myself first hand) because I'll be the one deriving listening pleasure from it not anyone else.

 

I found some evidence of a years-old anti-Yggy crusade that puts things in perspective I think.

 

And please, I beg you, leave DJT out of it!!!

[crenca]

11 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

"hate" is hyperbole.  I question his motives for posting in this thread, no doubt.

 

You have to understand the context:  Schiit products are specifically designed and sold to a market segment that is disillusioned with the stodgy "old school" of audiophilia.  I think a very strong case can be made that the "old school" embraces overpriced gear and there is a certain snob factor....

 

 

I wonder what Schiit could accomplish with their out-of-the-box designs for a bit more money (just for arguments sake, say double the price)?  I was reading about their new HP amp Jotunheim which also has an unusual circuit from an EE perspective {this also speaks against the idea that Schiit do these unusual designs out of a personal motive against the "audiophile" world and JA in particularity - has JA ever measured a HP anything?}.  Given Schiit's market, they need to do things on a certain budget/cost level, and as we all know if you can afford to through more engineering and parts quality resources at a problem you can (but not always) come up with better results.  If they could price their gear at a higher price point would it measure better?

[manisandher]

7 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I don't know to what to attribute the glitch that Atkinson found in the Yggy, Some say it's attributed to the DAC chips and others say that Atkinson goofed and the Yggy "glitch" really isn't there... I don't know.

 

It's real. And bigger than Moffat admits. Here's another measurement taken of the Yggy's output by someone totally independent (and actually a Schiit supporter):

 

 

It's totally attributable to the DAC chips.

 

Mani.

[hornytoad]

Just now, manisandher said:

 

It's real. And bigger than Moffat admits. Here's another measurement taken of the Yggy's output by someone totally independent (and actually a Schiit supporter):

 

 

It's totally attributable to the DAC chips.

 

Mani.

Still can't hear it. 

[Samuel T Cogley]

So why didn't someone tell me that Mani was CA's resident Yggy hater.  Could have saved me a lot of keystokes. 

[Samuel T Cogley]

3 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

 

I wonder what Schiit could accomplish with their out-of-the-box designs for a bit more money (just for arguments sake, say double the price)?  I was reading about their new HP amp Jotunheim which also has an unusual circuit from an EE perspective {this also speaks against the idea that Schiit do these unusual designs out of a personal motive against the "audiophile" world and JA in particularity - has JA ever measured a HP anything?}.  Given Schiit's market, they need to do things on a certain budget/cost level, and as we all know if you can afford to through more engineering and parts quality resources at a problem you can (but not always) come up with better results.  If they could price their gear at a higher price point would it measure better?

 

HP gear is how I discovered Schiit in the first place.  But I've kind of moved on now.  I have a Lyr 2, and really like it, but I've recently been using Lake People/Violectric gear and find it superior.  I'm not a huge fan of tubes.  I prefer linearity.