Ever wondered why music sounds so different on headphones compared to loudspeakers?

[dalethorn]

Yes agreed. I am perhaps guilty of over paraphrasing the exact words 'a mechanical LP groove and a phono pickup work together as an AC generator'. Please do not get me wrong, I think this is a fascinating point. However, I do think it is only one possible factor in why vinyl sounds as it does.

 

True. I've always taken the common man's crude analogy to heart, that the LP and stylus scrape the grooves with enough energy that a certain palpable physicality is bound to be impressed on the sound. Not that it's necessarily good.... With tape, if the tape is properly impregnated with permanent lubricants, and the head is engineered for a very smooth ride, then "scrape flutter" and other bad things become essentially inaudible, and there are little or none of those physical anomalies impressed onto the sound.

[dalethorn]

Perhaps, the constant noise and wobble induce audio pareidolia. Our brains are programmed to make meaningful interpretation from a random pattern. Just a thought! [emoji3] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

In the days when I used vinyl, the instant I lowered the stylus to the disc I could hear the background sound, but "feel" it as well - probably because low frequencies were involved. The best turntable I had had nearly unmeasurable rumble or motor-induced noise, and other factors were similarly reduced to near-nothingness, so who knows. But if you can do the test in a very quiet room with headphones, with the best turntable/arm/cartridge, and a high-quality pristine LP, you can definitely hear/feel something when the stylus hits the groove, before the music starts.

[Blake]

I thoroughly enjoy speaker listening and headphone listening. They are different experiences and there are times when I prefer one over the other, depending on my mood.

 

Overall, my personal views align pretty closely with Tyll of Innerfidelity in this article:

 

On the Strengths and Weaknesses of Headphones and Speakers | InnerFidelity

[4est]

Still not what Dudley said, which is that the disc creates a signal, and the equivalent in tape playback requires external power. When the motor turns the disc under the stylus, a signal is generated. When a motor pulls the tape over the tape head, some magnetic 'signal' is generated, but Dudley says that the latter case requires external power. It can't be power to the motors, since they are directly equivalent.

 

Not what Dudley said? Since when has he ever been an expert? A tape head requires no more power than a turntable. The tape passes by a head and it creates a signal in relationship to the tapes's magnetized gauss. The only required power beyond that is amplification. The insistence that magnetic coupling is some how less physical is simply incorrect as many have noted. Furthermore, one might initially think that magnetism has less "grip"/damping (in layman's terms) than a styli tracing a groove, but that is debatable as well.

[Johan]

As I noted in another post, and while speakers provide drama and freedom from a headset and wires, there are things speakers just can't do, short of a $million room and a hi-fi system costing nearly as much - just one example, the linear bass that extends all the way down, totally free of "room nodes". I'm aware that Dirac tries to compensate for that, but the result is still muddy with affordable speakers. The "large number of listeners" you note isn't just large, it's the overwhelming majority.

Bottom line: Not only is a high-quality speaker system with flat response and good detail from 20 hz to near 20 khz unattainable for the middle class today, the fact is that fewer and fewer people have the luxury to set up a system in their own house that can play music at audiophile volume levels on speakers, without disturbing anyone.

Best compromise in my opinion therefore is a nearfield listening setup in a seperate small room. At 1.5 - 2 meter listening distance you can listen at audiophile volume levels without disturbing anyone.

 

I do have have the following system in a 16 m2 room:

KEF X300A with sub out mod

KEF Q400b sub

Dirac Live RCS

Comfort chair

 

Flat response from 30Hz up, and I enjoy it much more than any system I ever have had or listened before, including my current living room system. Total system price (without source component) about 1.800 EUR so it's affordable for the middle class either.

[dalethorn]

I thoroughly enjoy speaker listening and headphone listening. They are different experiences and there are times when I prefer one over the other, depending on my mood. Overall, my personal views align pretty closely with Tyll of Innerfidelity in this article: On the Strengths and Weaknesses of Headphones and Speakers | InnerFidelity

 

Having been a headphone enthusiast a little longer than Tyll, I disagree with the first two premises in his article. On visceral impact, I think people shouldn't confuse what the ears hear and "feel" with rumble and so on in a listening room with speakers. Speakers do have their own scale of drama, and so they're literally different, but the headphone experience has appropriate visceral impact, if the recording and the frequency response have good fidelity. Having attended live pipe organ concerts in big churches, and listened to many recordings of same, many of those recordings accurately convey the live experience on my headphones.

 

The second issue, audio imaging, is more difficult to explain, but good headphones properly tuned do a fine job of that, at least with the better recordings. The number one problem is the simple frequency response. Get it right, and the soundstage for most recordings becomes a beautiful thing. Some recordings do play more "inside the head" than others, but those are also likely to be dull in presentation on speakers.

 

Since Tyll does his headphone testing "as is", i.e. without EQ, his descriptions of soundstage and imaging will be limited by what the test headphone sounds like "out of the box, after burn-in". Take one example, his test of the v-moda M80 or XS (same 'phone in different frames), where he talks about the colorations (and BTW, Tyll's descriptions of headphone sounds are pretty accurate), the "constricted" sound especially. That constricted sound just disappears when properly equalized.

 

The $129 Beats EP will not sound quite as good as the Focal Elear, even when both have the ideal EQ curve applied, due to the drivers and materials, and uncorrected distortions that cost money to address in the more expensive headphones. But it comes very close - closer than most people realize.

[dalethorn]

Best compromise in my opinion therefore is a nearfield listening setup in a seperate small room. At 1.5 - 2 meter listening distance you can listen at audiophile volume levels without disturbing anyone. I do have have the following system in a 16 m2 room: KEF X300A with sub out mod. KEF Q400b sub. Dirac Live RCS. Comfort chair. Flat response from 30Hz up, and I enjoy it much more than any system I ever have had or listened before, including my current living room system. Total system price (without source component) about 1.800 EUR so it's affordable for the middle class either.

 

That sounds like a great idea. Here's an article that has some similarities for me, particularly down on page 2 where he talks about the crossovers:

 

Audience ClairAudient 2+2 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com

[dalethorn]

Not what Dudley said? Since when has he ever been an expert? A tape head requires no more power than a turntable. The tape passes by a head and it creates a signal in relationship to the tapes's magnetized gauss. The only required power beyond that is amplification. The insistence that magnetic coupling is some how less physical is simply incorrect as many have noted. Furthermore, one might initially think that magnetism has less "grip"/damping (in layman's terms) than a styli tracing a groove, but that is debatable as well.

 

Aren't you repeating yourself? Your contention has been argued here at length, and so far nobody has linked to a definitive article explaining the difference. Dudley has a distinct advantage insofar as his claim has been read a thousand times more than yours, and to my knowledge without it being debunked. But, being open-minded on this, I'm perfectly willing to entertain your notions if I can find where some tech engineers have commented on exactly what Dudley said.

[mansr]

Aren't you repeating yourself? Your contention has been argued here at length, and so far nobody has linked to a definitive article explaining the difference. Dudley has a distinct advantage insofar as his claim has been read a thousand times more than yours, and to my knowledge without it being debunked. But, being open-minded on this, I'm perfectly willing to entertain your notions if I can find where some tech engineers have commented on exactly what Dudley said.

Dudley is the one making an unconventional claim. The burden of proof is on him.

[dalethorn]

Dudley is the one making an unconventional claim. The burden of proof is on him.

 

Since you launched a personal attack on me, and by extension on this forum, you have no further authority on this topic.

[jabbr]

Ok so is there an answer to the question about why this might possibly matter? Is there some theory or explanation about whether the current is produced trans conducted by mechanical force, or via another mechanism, that it could possibly matter?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kumakuma]

Aren't you repeating yourself? Your contention has been argued here at length, and so far nobody has linked to a definitive article explaining the difference. Dudley has a distinct advantage insofar as his claim has been read a thousand times more than yours, and to my knowledge without it being debunked. But, being open-minded on this, I'm perfectly willing to entertain your notions if I can find where some tech engineers have commented on exactly what Dudley said.

 

Dudley is the one making an unconventional claim. The burden of proof is on him.

[dalethorn]

Dudley is the one making an unconventional claim. The burden of proof is on him.

 

And how do we know that?

[dalethorn]

Ok so is there an answer to the question about why this might possibly matter? Is there some theory or explanation about whether the current is produced trans conducted by mechanical force, or via another mechanism, that it could possibly matter? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Stereophile used the term electrical signal, rather than current. What comes from a stylus and what comes from a tape head are very different, so it would be good to have some published engineering comparisons.

[monteverdi]

Even there are quite inherent differences in the reproduction of sound stage between Headphones and loudspeakers i think the reproduction of sound stage also reflects how a recording is generated. Most recent albums are using many microphones and then mixed. So the soundstage is something generated artificially and benefits of some smearing trough the listening room.

Years ago I did some simple recordings using my Sony DAT-man and Sonicstudio microphones which are attached to glasses. If the microphones are pushed back to the ear one got a perspective close to binaural and forward more like conventional recordings. But either way these recordings were quite acceptable listening through loudspeakers and also headphones without generating a pronounced in the head perspective.

[kumakuma]

And how do we know that?

 

The pushback you are seeing here is a pretty strong indication.

[jabbr]

Stereophile used the term electrical signal, rather than current. What comes from a stylus and what comes from a tape head are very different, so it would be good to have some published engineering comparisons.

 

What comes from a stylus and from a tape head are both voltage and current. There differences you are repeatedly suggesting regarding kinetic energy etc are completely irrelevant and you have made no argument to suggest otherwise.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Anymore nonsense and this cool thread will be closed. Don't ruin it for everyone.

[Kal Rubinson]

Anymore nonsense and this cool thread will be closed. Don't think it for everyone.

 

I think it lost its cool several days ago.

[dalethorn]

The pushback you are seeing here is a pretty strong indication.

 

Dudley's Stereophile article has a high ground on several counts. The pushback here has no ground other than x number of people say something. I supplied a link or two to something unique, so what I'd like to see with the 'pushback' are links to authoritative comparisons of the signal generated by stylii and tape heads. I didn't quote a forum member who said that stylii uniquely generate their own signal, I quoted a respected source that's been in print for 2-1/2 years.

[dalethorn]

What comes from a stylus and from a tape head are both voltage and current. There differences you are repeatedly suggesting regarding kinetic energy etc are completely irrelevant and you have made no argument to suggest otherwise.

 

I posted a link to a factual article by a very long-respected publication, Stereophile. The 'repeatedly' you suggest is simply rebuttal to the repeated challenges. Stop the repeated challenges of the same thing again and again, and I will not have to answer anything. Besides the fact that the article has been in print for 2-1/2 years, Stereophile gained its reputation as the people's alternative to commercial media like High Fidelity, Stereo Review, and Audio magazine. I can't prove to you that the Earth is round, but I can link to an article that explains it. I found Dudley's statement to be unique, fascinating, and very much worth sharing. I would love to see some engineering comparisons between what exactly comes from a stylus and a tape head.

[kumakuma]

Dudley's Stereophile article has a high ground on several counts. The pushback here has no ground other than x number of people say something. I supplied a link or two to something unique, so what I'd like to see with the 'pushback' are links to authoritative comparisons of the signal generated by stylii and tape heads. I didn't quote a forum member who said that stylii uniquely generate their own signal, I quoted a respected source that's been in print for 2-1/2 years.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this.

 

Stereophile is not a peer-reviewed publication and Dudley's column is really just a monthly collection of his thoughts on various subjects.

 

There are no measurements or other data in his column supporting his view that the signal generated by vinyl playback is somehow different from the signal generated by other means.

 

In other words, it is just his opinion and, in my mind, carries no more weight than your opinion or the opinions of anyone else who has posted to this thread.

[jabbr]

I posted a link to a factual article by a very long-respected publication, Stereophile. The 'repeatedly' you suggest is simply rebuttal to the repeated challenges. Stop the repeated challenges of the same thing again and again, and I will not have to answer anything. Besides the fact that the article has been in print for 2-1/2 years, Stereophile gained its reputation as the people's alternative to commercial media like High Fidelity, Stereo Review, and Audio magazine. I can't prove to you that the Earth is round, but I can link to an article that explains it. I found Dudley's statement to be unique, fascinating, and very much worth sharing. I would love to see some engineering comparisons between what exactly comes from a stylus and a tape head.

 

 

The most obvious exception I take off hand: although many electrical circuits including sensors are sensitive to their power supplies, so too are mechanical devices sensitive to things like wow & flutter, and vibration which is very obvious. The degrees of sensitivity to various issues is implementation dependent though it's prolly easier to reduce variation in a power supply e.g. nanovolt range than it is to achieve the same reduction in mechanical devices. But again this is all implementation dependent.

[VenturaRV]

I think it lost its cool several days ago.

Because of that very reson, Karl, I stopped posting, and now I limit myself to enjoy the show.

Not much it suppossed to be about in the first term: headphones vs. speakers.

 

Enviado desde mi LG-E430 mediante Tapatalk

[dalethorn]

The most obvious exception I take off hand: although many electrical circuits including sensors are sensitive to their power supplies, so too are mechanical devices sensitive to things like wow & flutter, and vibration which is very obvious. The degrees of sensitivity to various issues is implementation dependent though it's prolly easier to reduce variation in a power supply e.g. nanovolt range than it is to achieve the same reduction in mechanical devices. But again this is all implementation dependent.

 

Well, I spent the better part of today looking up comparisons with Google. The only find I got that mentioned tape versus vinyl (or the equivalent with other search terms) was in Portugese I think. Or maybe Italian. Quite a lot of info on phono cartridges and stylii, and the 'transducer' aspect of the cartridges, but nothing really on tape heads. Plenty of vague info on magnetics, magnetic induction or whatever, electromagnets, and the usual limitations of tape technology, bias currents ..... But not a single snippet describing in detail just what the mag-read process is like, how much amping takes place in the deck, and so on. I joined the AES for a second time a couple years ago, but never participated or read more than one or two journal articles. Having worked with tape years ago, reel to reel, cassette (CrO2, metal etc., Dolby B) - I learned a lot about head wear among other things, but nothing new today. I'd say I picked up a fair bit from the vinyl articles though.

 

There was one interesting post on a forum owned by Decware, on *improving* sound by recopying a tape. Amazing stuff, if it were true. Another good read on tape was on a Dr. AIX forum talking about Cookie Marenco and whether her tape recordings should be considered High Resolution or not (apparently not). But that was it. Seems to me the Web is still extremely primitive for technical information, short of subscribing to forums like the AES.