Ever wondered why music sounds so different on headphones compared to loudspeakers?

[dalethorn]

No, it is not you. I own a pair of Stax HP that I use when required for quietness or when I make a change to something and need to double check. I've had numerous pairs of others, and just cannot seem to warm up to them either.

 

The problem may seem to be in the presentation, which I also assumed years ago. Then I discovered that it's the response. There are a number of papers by Paul Barton and others who have tried to change headphone sound for something they term "Room Feel". It's the right direction, although the designs that are in production still miss the mark.

[dalethorn]

That's YOUR understanding of the facts mentioned in those documents.

 

Actually no, it's your facts, that the speakers "mix" or smear the sound in the room. You said it.

[flak]

Actually no, it's your facts, that the speakers "mix" or smear the sound in the room. You said it.

 

You can go ahead with your opinions and ramblings as long as you want... forumers can read them as well as the linked documents and draw their own conclusions.

 

Ciaoooo

Flavio

[VenturaRV]

You say it's my argument, which is false since I gave you the Stereophile link. Then you claim that it's a vague concept when it's a proven physical property of a stylus in a groove. You're wasting your time here - argue with Art Dudley, since he's a published expert in a well-known national magazine.

Excuse me if I don't think I'm wasting my time in this fascinating debate.

 

Art Dudley's praise for well manufactured audio gear (and chairs) is as enthusiastically shared by me as unneccessary. The second part of his article is just an exposoition of his own preferences, nothing more.

 

"... I've had a few tape decks and turntables, and I doubt that even with tape hiss and record surface noise substracted out, that the same recording... ". These are not Dudley's words, but yours. So; I've been previously arguing with you and your statements, not with Art Dudley's subjective convictions (nothing original or unusual, for sure).

 

It seems to me that once Dudley has sentenced something, no matter if it is not very rational, you accept it as an incontrovertible truth.

 

Agreeing with you in most of what headphone's listening is corcerned, I only can, on the contrary, disagree with you reading your quite evanescent arguments (excuse me) about turntables vs. other reproduction procedures, as far as (excuse me again) they seem to come from a dangerously similar to "placebo effect" source.

Actually, you say that even removing tape hiss (present in the vynil made from that tape) and surface noise from the vynil itself, you suspect the difference between them will remain evident. Since this ideal comparison is not possible in practical terms, your statement remains a conjecture not falsable.

The sound, most probably, will be different (just changing the cart, for example), but will not be neccessarily better for the turntable. We have not (nor Dudley has) an objective method to solve the dilemma.

 

Enviado desde mi LG-E430 mediante Tapatalk

 

 

Sent from my LG-E430 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[dalethorn]

You can go ahead with your opinions and ramblings as long as you want... forumers can read them as well as the linked documents and draw their own conclusions. Ciaoooo. Flavio

 

It isn't rambling to say that speakers smear sound in a room. Anyone can ponder that for a moment and realize that it's literally true. The contention comes in regarding whether that smearing is a good thing or not. There is ample testimony from many experts to the effect that headphones produce a clearer, more detailed sound, but again, that's quite obvious from anyone's simple analysis - the headphone doesn't smear the sound in a room.

 

The controversy comes about in the "presentation", or the fictitious "soundstage", not from the fact that headphone sound is clearer and more detailed, which of course it is.

[dalethorn]

Excuse me if I don't think I'm wasting my time in this fascinating debate. Art Dudley's praise for well manufactured audio gear (and chairs) is as enthusiastically shared by me as unneccessary. The second part of his article is just an exposoition of his own preferences, nothing more. "... I've had a few tape decks and turntables, and I doubt that even with tape hiss and record surface noise substracted out, that the same recording... ". These are not Dudley's words, but yours. So; I've been previously arguing with you and your statements, not with Art Dudley's subjective convictions (nothing original or unusual, for sure). It seems to me that once Dudley has sentenced something, no matter if it is not very rational, you accept it as an incontrovertible truth. Sent from my LG-E430 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

I can't accept your emotional arguments, but I welcome any rational insight on exactly what Dudley said about the uniqueness of the stylus creating its own electrical signal.

[4est]

Stereophile had a great article on why vinyl sounds different, and why a lot of people prefer it. The gist of it is that the stylus does something that neither digital nor analog tape playback does - the stylus generates its own current by its physical action in the record grooves, and then the amps amplify that sound. Tape and digital players have to construct that voltage from magnetism or bytes of computer data. That is bound to sound different.

 

I am sorry, but mansr is correct here, and magnetism is "physical action" in most metrics. Dudley often grasps at things if my memory serves me correctly. It has been years since I have bothered to read TAS or Stereophile.

[VenturaRV]

In case you missed the point, $200k turntables are *engineered* for maximum fidelity in reproducing what's on the record. People who pay $200k are not Armchair Quarterbacks - they're players.

In case you didn't read properly my objection: there are ashtonishing well engineered turtables costing $200k and people who buy them.

There are ashtonishing well conceived and enginered digital players costing $200k or more and people who buy them, also.

And these facts means only that the first prefer vynil, while the second prefer digital.

Nothing more.

 

Enviado desde mi LG-E430 mediante Tapatalk

[mansr]

I can't accept your emotional arguments, but I welcome any rational insight on exactly what Dudley said about the uniqueness of the stylus creating its own electrical signal.

I tried to do that. You responded that James Maxwell has insufficient moral authority. It is clear that discussion with you is futile, although it has some amusement value.

[semente]

I tried to do that. You responded that James Maxwell has insufficient moral authority. It is clear that discussion with you is futile, although it has some amusement value.

I wonder if Dudley keeps extended loans of those products that he raves about.

 

This would get him into even (moral) terms with Maxwell which used to sneak into his grandma's kitchen and snatch a few ginger biscuits...

[dalethorn]

I tried to do that. You responded that James Maxwell has insufficient moral authority. It is clear that discussion with you is futile, although it has some amusement value.

 

And now a personal attack. That kills your argument.

[dalethorn]

I wonder if Dudley keeps extended loans of those products that he raves about. This would get him into even (moral) terms with Maxwell which used to sneak into his grandma's kitchen and snatch a few ginger biscuits...

 

Non-sequitur - emotional argument.

[dalethorn]

In case you didn't read properly my objection: there are ashtonishing well engineered turtables costing $200k and people who buy them.

There are ashtonishing well conceived and enginered digital players costing $200k or more and people who buy them, also.

And these facts means only that the first prefer vynil, while the second prefer digital.

Nothing more. Enviado desde mi LG-E430 mediante Tapatalk

 

Fallacious argument, equating a $200k physical device with an electronic device which, if it actually costs $200k, has technology beyond NSA and CIA.

[dalethorn]

I am sorry, but mansr is correct here, and magnetism is "physical action" in most metrics. Dudley often grasps at things if my memory serves me correctly. It has been years since I have bothered to read TAS or Stereophile.

 

Equating the two is off-the-chart misinformation. The record groove is in a different world from a magnetic emulsion. You're not even trying.

[Synfreak]

That thread examplarely shows why the term "post-truth" was choosen to be the "the word of the year" ;-)

[semente]

Non-sequitur - emotional argument.

Actually it was sarcasm but I forgot the smiley.

I no longer read audio magazines or reviews.

[jabbr]

I can't accept your emotional arguments, but I welcome any rational insight on exactly what Dudley said about the uniqueness of the stylus creating its own electrical signal.

 

Hey "Dudley" isn't here and you don't seem to have enough knowledge of physics to make the arguments yourself -- voltage, current, magnetism is simple physics that is well understood by knowledgeable people. I don't think trying to educate you is likely to succeed unless you are willing to listen. Perhaps you don't really care.

[dalethorn]

Hey "Dudley" isn't here and you don't seem to have enough knowledge of physics to make the arguments yourself -- voltage, current, magnetism is simple physics that is well understood by knowledgeable people. I don't think trying to educate you is likely to succeed unless you are willing to listen. Perhaps you don't really care.

 

I can understand the kinetic energy from a needle running in a groove, but the mag tape has no such thing. It's easy to see what Dudley is getting at, but the hair-splitting here is beyond absurd.

[dalethorn]

That thread examplarely shows why the term "post-truth" was choosen to be the "the word of the year" ;-)

 

I don't directly equate political talk with 'review' talk, although there is some commonality. The motivations pretty well tell the tale, or the spin. But when a reviewer injects something unexpected into the review, and the review has no dependency on or gain from that particular something, I see it as a possible opportunity to learn something, to gain a new perspective.

[semente]

I don't directly equate political talk with 'review' talk, although there is some commonality. The motivations pretty well tell the tale, or the spin. But when a reviewer injects something unexpected into the review, and the review has no dependency on or gain from that particular something, I see it as a possible opportunity to learn something, to gain a new perspective.

I can see where you are getting to but to me it looks as though Dudley is just making up (?) an argument with which to defend his damsel.

Not journalism, not authority, just opinion.

[4est]

Not even trying? Off the chart mis information? Do you even have a clue as to how this all works?

 

For starters, in tape it is not a magnetic emulsion, it is magnetized particles applied to tape. Those particles pass by a "head" inducing current through magnetic induction.

 

For phono, the styli bounce off of bumps in a groove to MAGNETICALLY INDUCE current through a few methods.

 

These very small signals are then amplified nearly a million times to provide a line level signal. Neither of these will do anything if there is not electricity provided to move the induction producing elements. Both require eaualization too. Beyond this, all I see are distinctions without differences. FWIW, I still purchase and play vinyl as part of my audio-itis.

Equating the two is off-the-chart misinformation. The record groove is in a different world from a magnetic emulsion. You're not even trying.

[kumakuma]

Thanks for the correction.

Other Chesky records (i.e. "Jazz in the New Harmonic"), with David Chesky himself at the piano, are made with a dummy head and torso, and the results are not extremely impressive, no more than any other "spaciousness" recording made with minimal miking techniques.

I'm not sure that dummy heads are the complete solution for binaural listening.

Perhaps there are other factors in the equation.

 

I have found David Chesky's own albums the least enjoyable of the series but like the ones by Amber Rubarth, Noah Wall, Melissa Menago, Macy Gray, Alexis Cole, CC Coletti, The New Appalachians, and Wycliffe Gordon a lot.

 

You could be right about dummy heads not being a complete solution. All I know is that I like what I hear when I listen to these albums on both my headphones and speakers.

[dalethorn]

Not even trying? Off the chart mis information? Do you even have a clue as to how this all works? For starters, in tape it is not a magnetic emulsion, it is magnetized particles applied to tape. Those particles pass by a "head" inducing current through magnetic induction. For phono, the styli bounce off of bumps in a groove to MAGNETICALLY INDUCE current through a few methods. These very small signals are then amplified nearly a million times to provide a line level signal. Neither of these will do anything if there is not electricity provided to move the induction producing elements. Both require eaualization too. Beyond this, all I see are distinctions without differences. FWIW, I still purchase and play vinyl as part of my audio-itis.

 

I think you're finally getting a little warmer. You might score a few points compared to Dudley's contention if we get more serious input here that drills down to the actual issue.

[dalethorn]

I have found David Chesky's own albums the least enjoyable of the series but like the ones by Amber Rubarth, Noah Wall, Melissa Menago, Macy Gray, Alexis Cole, CC Coletti, The New Appalachians, and Wycliffe Gordon a lot. You could be right about dummy heads not being a complete solution. All I know is that I like what I hear when I listen to these albums on both my headphones and speakers.

 

Generally agree, although I've picked a few Chesky tracks separate from the albums. Girl From Guatemala is an outstanding example.

[dalethorn]

Speaking of the original topic, another example that brings together a representative headphone and music track - It Hurts Me Too, from the Jamming With Edward album (1969 Rolling Stones informal sessions) - although the bass tends toward boomy, there is a quantity of delicious underlying bass detail that's difficult-to-impossible to appreciate in a room with speakers, due to the reinforcement of the muddying effect.