Ever wondered why music sounds so different on headphones compared to loudspeakers?

[kumakuma]

A "top end" digital system has nothing to do with why a turntable costs $200k. To "perform as well" as a $200k turntable, a digital system need cost no more than $5k.

 

The difference in price between comparable analog and digital systems is the penalty you pay for trying to reproduce music using the inherently inefficient and error prone method that Dudley is talking about in his article.

[semente]

$200k turntables are created to perform physical real-world things like perfect balance, rotation speed, isolation, etc. Your discussion of $200k electronics is some kind of troll post that has nothing to do with why $200k turntables are built in the first place. The turntable tracks the record, and the electronics (preamp, amp etc.) take over from there.

I never mentioned 200k electronics...

[VenturaRV]

Are you trolling, or is your response intended to convey useful information here? Take your time, no hurry.

It is just I've become tired of this nonsense and off-topic discussion.

This is time to follow your already old (very old) advice and no waste my time no more.

Thank you.

 

 

 

Sent from my LG-E430 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[jabbr]

As I already said, the tape player requires the head to be electrically charged to read the tape. The stylus doesn't need to be charged. It reads the grooves kinetically, physically, not magnetically. It generates its own current.

 

Whether or not this is true -- it could be true for some heads -- what's the point? Current is current. Electrons have no memory (as far as we are concerned here)

[dalethorn]

The difference in price between comparable analog and digital systems is the penalty you pay for trying to reproduce music using the inherently inefficient and error prone method that Dudley is talking about in his article.

 

My fascination in studying analog hi-fi is to learn about things that are still relevant, such as the fact that we still need transducers to convert to and from sound in the air. And I believe that old tech should never be abandoned, since you never know when you might need it. I know many examples, most not in hi-fi, where engineering data has been lost through neglect.

[dalethorn]

The tape need only be recorded once, and then it plays back like phono. The tape head itself does not require electricity- magnetized particles create current or current creates magnetism.

 

Still not what Dudley said, which is that the disc creates a signal, and the equivalent in tape playback requires external power. When the motor turns the disc under the stylus, a signal is generated. When a motor pulls the tape over the tape head, some magnetic 'signal' is generated, but Dudley says that the latter case requires external power. It can't be power to the motors, since they are directly equivalent.

[semente]

My fascination in studying analog hi-fi is to learn about things that are still relevant, such as the fact that we still need transducers to convert to and from sound in the air. And I believe that old tech should never be abandoned, since you never know when you might need it. I know many examples, most not in hi-fi, where engineering data has been lost through neglect.

 

I was just showing my kids how to operate a gramophone.

They were fascinated and did not seem at all bothered by the ear piercing high frequency noise or the overall pretty shabby sound.

The spring seems to have lost its power and I had to spin the record manually.

All analogue, all acoustic playback.

I'm glad this was abandoned, though.

Nice for decorating but not for playback.

 

R

[dalethorn]

I never mentioned 200k electronics...

 

Just "very costly" electronics. So unless you're disinforming, you related that "very costly" to my post. Now you explain why.

[semente]

Just "very costly" electronics. So unless you're disinforming, you related that "very costly" to my post. Now you explain why.

Sorry, it wasn't me.

You're addressing the wrong person.

[dalethorn]

I was just showing my kids how to operate a gramophone.

They were fascinated and did not seem at all bothered by the ear piercing high frequency noise or the overall pretty shabby sound.

The spring seems to have lost its power and I had to spin the record manually.

All analogue, all acoustic playback.

I'm glad this was abandoned, though.

Nice for decorating but not for playback.R

 

There are a lot of very intelligent and resourceful people using analog record players that they pay a lot for. My experience with those caused me to abandon them years ago, however, I don't dispute the fact that these intelligent and resourceful vinyl users know exactly what they're doing. I have a pretty good idea, but for my part I don't have the time and resources.

[dalethorn]

Sorry, it wasn't me.

You're addressing the wrong person.

 

I'm sure the other guy saw it. If not, c'est la vie.

[mansr]

It could be operated by hand.

 

The tape reels could be spun by hand too.

[VenturaRV]

Yes, nothing new on the facts underlying the use of cross-feed... what's new, but not available in the market yet, is Dirac’s version of cross-feed that implements a patent pending method which includes the time-difference cues without giving comb filtering.

 

Flavio

Hi.

I've visited the aria.3d URL. Wow! The soundstage of the demos is impressive! I find the "Chicago" specially immersive.

A must!

Thank you.

 

Sent from my G620S-L01 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[STC]

Hi.

I've visited the aria.3d URL. Wow! The soundstage of the demos is impressive! I find the "Chicago" specially immersive.

A must!

Thank you.

 

Sent from my G620S-L01 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

You should also try the speakers setup. The learning curve may be a little steep for most but they are other ways for realistic 3D sound with Stereo.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The Computer Audiophile]

Bickering posts removed. Enough of the off topic nonsense.

[VenturaRV]

You should also try the speakers setup. The learning curve may be a little steep for most but they are other ways for realistic 3D sound with Stereo.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are right.

I meant only that the aria.3d demos were very impressive in the spatial presentation.

I don't know how they achieve these results, but I guess it is some sort of algorithm applied to the signal (as at QSound do), not a natural recording method.

In any case, it seems to me difficult to experiment much with my speakers setup... They weigh 86 kg each... [emoji27]

 

Sent from my G620S-L01 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[STC]

You are right.

I meant only that the aria.3d demos were very impressive in the spatial presentation.

I don't know how they achieve these results, but I guess it is some sort of algorithm applied to the signal (as at QSound do), not a natural recording method.

In any case, it seems to me difficult to experiment much with my speakers setup... They weigh 86 kg each... [emoji27]

 

Sent from my G620S-L01 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

 

I am lucky, mine weighs just about 56kg [emoji23]

 

Anyway, you don't really need any sort of algorithm if you want to preserve the purest sound from your source. I experimented without any algorithm at first because of Hirez and SACD and was reluctant to taint the pure signal. Now, I use ambiophonicsDSP algorithm. No regrets.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[VenturaRV]

I am lucky, mine weighs just about 56kg [emoji23]

 

Anyway, you don't really need any sort of algorithm if you want to preserve the purest sound from your source. I experimented without any algorithm at first because of Hirez and SACD and was reluctant to taint the pure signal. Now, I use ambiophonicsDSP algorithm. No regrets.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Well; even though I like to maintain the source signal as pure as I can, I must confess sometimes I use the tricks JRiver or Foobar have in offer to obtain artificial space fx. A contradiction, but I'm human and a sinner. [emoji17]

 

Sent from my G620S-L01 using Computer Audiophile mobile app

[Confused]

Post deleted

[Confused]

To make that kind of blanket statement it is obvious that you never listened to a a really good headphone system. I too believed in the mantra you are preaching but it is flat out wrong.

Rather than 'preaching a mantra', I was essentially stating how my own personal brain reacts to listening to headphones, with the 'music is in my head' sensation limits my enjoyment. As a point of note, when I am preaching blanket statement mantras, I tend to avoid signing off with the words 'Is it just me'. OK, so it is also obvious that I have never listened to a really good headphone system. To be fair, I do not own one, not a really good one anyway. (I do own some old Grado SR80's and some mid priced Sennheisers) After all, why would I spend lots of cash on something that I would not enjoy? Having said that, I did visit a hifi dealer earlier in the year that was having a headphone demonstration event. I spent many hours there listing to a variety of kit. My favourite set up from the day was an Aurender N10, feeding a Chord TT powering Audeze LCD 3's. This was a great set up, it sounded sublime. I fully understand the benefits, the elimination of troublesome room nodes, the level of performance that can be achieved for a fraction of the cost of a speaker based system, the fact you can play at any time or volume without annoying neighbours or family. Yet despite all these benefits, I still get limited enjoyment from headphones. Oddly enough you made a statement in you post that genuinely interests me, you state that you used to have a similar view to myself. I for one would be very interested in knowing what made you change you view, what lead to headphone enjoyment in your case. Although if it simply moving to higher quality kit, I am not sure this will work for me, I think the problem is essentially psychological, it is in my brain. But maybe I am wrong? Believe me, I am just about the most open minded person you will find and I am open to hearing peoples views and experiences, and trust me, I never preach mantras or anything else, but I will state my views, and I am interested in the views of others.

[Confused]

Picking up on this threads 'sub-topic' of the Stereophile article. I think the theory of the cartridge generating it's own power is an interesting one. But I suspect that whatever improvement this makes, this will work in combination with the other known characteristics of vinyl reproduction. Vinyl does have limits to dynamic range, deep bass needs to be mono or it would not be possible to cut the grooves, interactions between the TT, arm , cartridge and room / environmental factors, and so on. The fact is that digital and vinyl do sound different. OK, you could argue that in terms of measured performance, digital wins, but many of vinyl's supposed drawbacks tend to produce 'Euphonic' results, which can be a good thing if you simply want to enjoy the music. Once think occurs to me, I have listened to 24/96 vinyl rips, then played back on a decent quality digital system, and the digital version does sound very similar to the vinyl original, suggesting the benefit of the cartridge generating power is relatively small in the overall presentation of the sound.

 

It would also be interesting to try a analogue TT back to back with one of these:

 

ELP Laser Turntable |

 

In theory, this should produce the vinyl analogue sound, without the effect of the cartridge generating it's own power. Unfortunately, I have never had the chance to listen to one, I am sure it would be fascinating. Although even if a back to back test of the ELP versus a conventional TT could be set up I suspect the results would not be conclusive, there are just too many variables here.

[dalethorn]

Picking up on this threads 'sub-topic' of the Stereophile article. I think the theory of the cartridge generating it's own power is an interesting one. But I suspect that whatever improvement this makes, this will work in combination with the other known characteristics of vinyl reproduction. Vinyl does have limits to dynamic range, deep bass needs to be mono or it would not be possible to cut the grooves, interactions between the TT, arm , cartridge and room / environmental factors, and so on. The fact is that digital and vinyl do sound different. OK, you could argue that in terms of measured performance, digital wins, but many of vinyl's supposed drawbacks tend to produce 'Euphonic' results, which can be a good thing if you simply want to enjoy the music. Once think occurs to me, I have listened to 24/96 vinyl rips, then played back on a decent quality digital system, and the digital version does sound very similar to the vinyl original, suggesting the benefit of the cartridge generating power is relatively small in the overall presentation of the sound. It would also be interesting to try a analogue TT back to back with one of these: In theory, this should produce the vinyl analogue sound, without the effect of the cartridge generating it's own power. Unfortunately, I have never had the chance to listen to one, I am sure it would be fascinating. Although even if a back to back test of the ELP versus a conventional TT could be set up I suspect the results would not be conclusive, there are just too many variables here.

 

The Stereophile article didn't say that the cartridge created power, it said that the analog disc generates its own electrical signal, and all other mediums require external power to create a source signal.

[STC]

Perhaps, the constant noise and wobble induce audio pareidolia. Our brains are programmed to make meaningful interpretation from a random pattern. Just a thought! [emoji3]

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Confused]

The Stereophile article didn't say that the cartridge created power, it said that the analog disc generates its own electrical signal, and all other mediums require external power to create a source signal.

Yes agreed. I am perhaps guilty of over paraphrasing the exact words 'a mechanical LP groove and a phono pickup work together as an AC generator'. Please do not get me wrong, I think this is a fascinating point. However, I do think it is only one possible factor in why vinyl sounds as it does.

[dalethorn]

Rather than 'preaching a mantra', I was essentially stating how my own personal brain reacts to listening to headphones, with the 'music is in my head' sensation limits my enjoyment. As a point of note, when I am preaching blanket statement mantras, I tend to avoid signing off with the words 'Is it just me'. OK, so it is also obvious that I have never listened to a really good headphone system. To be fair, I do not own one, not a really good one anyway. (I do own some old Grado SR80's and some mid priced Sennheisers) After all, why would I spend lots of cash on something that I would not enjoy? Having said that, I did visit a hifi dealer earlier in the year that was having a headphone demonstration event. I spent many hours there listing to a variety of kit. My favourite set up from the day was an Aurender N10, feeding a Chord TT powering Audeze LCD 3's. This was a great set up, it sounded sublime. I fully understand the benefits, the elimination of troublesome room nodes, the level of performance that can be achieved for a fraction of the cost of a speaker based system, the fact you can play at any time or volume without annoying neighbours or family. Yet despite all these benefits, I still get limited enjoyment from headphones. Oddly enough you made a statement in you post that genuinely interests me, you state that you used to have a similar view to myself. I for one would be very interested in knowing what made you change you view, what lead to headphone enjoyment in your case. Although if it simply moving to higher quality kit, I am not sure this will work for me, I think the problem is essentially psychological, it is in my brain. But maybe I am wrong? Believe me, I am just about the most open minded person you will find and I am open to hearing peoples views and experiences, and trust me, I never preach mantras or anything else, but I will state my views, and I am interested in the views of others.

 

Two things: If you're not compelled to use headphones because you are still able to have a satisfactory listen with speakers, then you may never really enjoy headphones, since it can be a nuisance and slightly claustrophobic. The other thing is, being directly against your ears, the imperfections of headphones can be irritating - even with premium headphones.

 

I see a couple possible ways to mitigate that, if you are motivated to use headphones: One is to use a parametric equalizer to correct the problems. It requires quite a bit of practice, but the reward if done well is a beautiful sound and much improved soundstage (that latter point isn't well known in the business). Another way is to use a headphone like the Focal Elear, which limits the treble (where most of the irritations occur), and further limits irritations due to the non-reflective design. A third thing that can help is a tube amp, which softens irritations somewhat.