Discussion of AC mains isolation transformers

[One and a half]

6 hours ago, jsawyer09 said:

Just wanted to say thanks, @One and a half. This is more or less where I started, so everything has come full-circle. It's just I read a lot online about how people were using a UPS with the Topaz, so thought I'd do some experimentation. I already had one, so figured, why not? However, your suggestion to put the pump/alarm on a Monster unit (in my case, it's a Panamax M5400, or the UPS now for that matter) was a good one. Initially I just had it plugged in to the extra receptacle the Topaz resided. So now it's:

 

20a Wall Receptacle #1 > Topaz > Tripp-Lite—Teddy Pardo 15/2 on Google Nest Router; Paul Hynes SR4 on EE8 Switch

20a Wall Receptacle #2 > Panamax (or UPS) > Septronics Pump/Alarm 

 

That looks OK! A lot of us have a type of Panamax, Furman, Monster Centre that really does squat for audio protection. The coils they use, for some reason, react with rapid current from amps especially, and the abundance of caps just seem to resonate at the wrong frequency with clear audible detriments. 

However, they are a real plus for computing equipment, fridges, your sump pump, printers, anything other than audio equipment and TV. Line conditioners usually have very good protection circuitry like overvoltage and undervoltage sensing or lost neutral detection that really works well. A more novel approach (use the Japanese to English translation (hilarious):

 

What happened when the hot water washing toilet seat was strengthened with an audio power supply?

[jsawyer09]

Now that was funny! I guess there's no subjective water pressure improvement with that kind of experiment. Ah, the Japanese and their toilet seats. Thanks for the laugh.

[Superdad]

24 minutes ago, One and a half said:

What happened when the hot water washing toilet seat was strengthened with an audio power supply?

 

That's shocking! What some audiophiles will do for excitement...

 

But I agree with you Gary, the complexity of some "power conditioner" designs can have odd effects. Some of them dump all the crap into the ground, and often they greatly increase the impedance between the grounds of connected equipment. Which is quite counterproductive if one is trying to minimize leakage loops between gear. 

That's why we prefer the approach of a very stout, completely filterless power strip (with solid low impedance grounding wires or bus-bar between outlets) fronted from the wall by a great isolation transformer--such as the Topaz--for protection.

 

You mentioned Furman. We have had a variety of support issues (with ISO REGEN, UltraCap, and EtherREGEN) that ended up going away when the client bypassed their Furman box.  Garth Powell, ex of Furman, is also the designer of Audioquest's Niagara series.  Below is a pic. I have no idea what he is trying to accomplish (though I am not an engineer and pass no judgement). Just looks like more than I would want/need between the wall and my audio components.  It's not an AC>DC supply. It's supposed to be just AC in, AC out. 

 

[jsawyer09]

@Superdad, is that a Furman unit or one of the Niagaras? Not certain about it, either. I looked into AQ Niagara when I was setting up my system before moving into our new house, but went with a PS Audio Power Regenerator instead. I respect Garth a lot, and have had discussions and even interviewed Bill Low on a couple of occasions back when I was doing feature article work (and own mostly AQ power cords and ICs), so really wanted to support a good 'last step' in providing clean power to my system, even with dedicated 20a lines. Ultimately, regeneration made more sense to me; I didn't want to experiment or fuss about with another 'conditioner' on the market, so auditioned the PS Audio after researching and haven't looked back.

[Superdad]

25 minutes ago, jsawyer09 said:

is that a Furman unit or one of the Niagaras?

 

Oh sorry, I meant to say so. It's the Audioquest Niagara 7000 ($9,500).

And again, no disrespect meant to Garth Powell. I actually found his 31-page paper on AC rather interesting:

https://www.audioquest.com/resource/1136/Power-Demystified-whitepaper-8-23-18.zip

[GMG]

It's getting warmer and warmer where I live and we started using the air conditioner,

Funny thing is that earlier this year I bought out of curiosity the PS Audio noise harvester,

Didn't expect much of it and it actually did not show noticeable improvement to the sound. It didn't light up very frequently either, so I concluded that either it is just not doing anything or I am really lucky to have very clean power to begin with (I am running a dedicated line to my HiFi)

 

BUT

 

Now that we turned on the air conditioner it started flashing like crazy :-)

I have a few air conditioners at home, but only 1 in particular causes the noise harvester to flash like crazy. I know that this particular unit is different, it is an AC Inverter type of air conditioner (supposed to invert AC to varying DC and therefore be more energy efficient, or something in that area of explanation). So I guess this AC inversion process is kicking back some nasties back to the main,

 

I would really like to prevent this leakage at the source and I know I should post this question on the PS Audio forum, (and I will), but I really appreciate this UpTone  forum and all the knowledge that people here share,

Is there any EMI filter I can install in-line to the air conditioner plug that will help reduce this effect? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[One and a half]

14 hours ago, GMG said:

It's getting warmer and warmer where I live and we started using the air conditioner,

Funny thing is that earlier this year I bought out of curiosity the PS Audio noise harvester,

Didn't expect much of it and it actually did not show noticeable improvement to the sound. It didn't light up very frequently either, so I concluded that either it is just not doing anything or I am really lucky to have very clean power to begin with (I am running a dedicated line to my HiFi)

 

BUT

 

Now that we turned on the air conditioner it started flashing like crazy :-)

I have a few air conditioners at home, but only 1 in particular causes the noise harvester to flash like crazy. I know that this particular unit is different, it is an AC Inverter type of air conditioner (supposed to invert AC to varying DC and therefore be more energy efficient, or something in that area of explanation). So I guess this AC inversion process is kicking back some nasties back to the main,

 

I would really like to prevent this leakage at the source and I know I should post this question on the PS Audio forum, (and I will), but I really appreciate this UpTone  forum and all the knowledge that people here share,

Is there any EMI filter I can install in-line to the air conditioner plug that will help reduce this effect? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a tough one since a quick look on Amazon has pathetic EMC filters that plug in. There's no data on attenuation relating to that a) we need to suppress

B) what the filter can do. 

 

The best filter is the single phase box type but that needs professional electrical install.

 

Wait, do you have an unused power conditioner like a Tripp lite, Furman, monster cable type ? Try that on the air-conditioning. It will need to be rated for 20A to match the aircon. 

[GMG]

Thanks @One and a half,

I had a look at Amazon and got lost. 
there is indeed no info on what the filters actually do. But then, I also don’t know what exactly needs filtering as I have no way to measure it. 
so a general filter would be a good suggestion. 
 

I was wondering if this would be a good choice (20A is more then enough)

Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter Termianl Single-Phase Line-Conditioner JREle AC 115/250V 20A JRW1220-22 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073RMLFRC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_2EA1V7C48QNBKG45EWF2

 

[One and a half]

25 minutes ago, GMG said:

Thanks @One and a half,

I had a look at Amazon and got lost. 
there is indeed no info on what the filters actually do. But then, I also don’t know what exactly needs filtering as I have no way to measure it. 
so a general filter would be a good suggestion. 
 

I was wondering if this would be a good choice (20A is more then enough)

Noise Suppressor Power EMI Filter Termianl Single-Phase Line-Conditioner JREle AC 115/250V 20A JRW1220-22 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073RMLFRC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_2EA1V7C48QNBKG45EWF2

 

Yes, something like that, the covered terminals are a good feature. Will need to be put inside or on a wall in a box. Depends on local regs which I'm not that familiar with in Israel.

 

The earth is important so that it is connected to the line and the other earth on the filter to the air-conditioning.

[Hiker]

I just discovered my new Holo Audio May KTE dac does not like to be plugged into a power conditioner for whatever the reasons it has a negative effect on it ,.I use Puritan model 136 Ac conditioner primarily for low draw front end components. Whether this is specific to this brand of conditioner I couldn’t say .

 

Yesterday out of pure curiosity I plugged the May dac directly into the wall receptacle and poof , pardon the pun , I hear a noticeable jump in performance across the board however I also noticed this effected the treble region by boosting it a little that is noticeable and a little annoying.

 

I wondered about using an isolation transformer just for the May dac and did a online search and got a bit overwhelmed by the choices , I just wondering , I would very much appreciate any guidance , my budget under $1,000.00 USD .

Thank you 

[Iving]

20 minutes ago, Hiker said:

noticeable jump in performance across the board however I also noticed this effected the treble region by boosting it a little that is noticeable and a little annoying

 

Just wondering if you might consider that these observations relate typically to mains noise (higher when plugged in to wall, lower when plugged in to conditioner). HF ("treble region") can masquerade as Hi-Fi - illusion of clarity/space etc. But the "annoying" aspect betrays digititis as I have experienced it - often.

[Hiker]

1 minute ago, Iving said:

 

Just wondering if you might consider that these observations relate to typical mains-related noise. Higher plugged in wall. Lower plugged in conditioner. HF ("treble region") can masquerade as Hi-Fi - illusion of clarity/space etc. But the "annoying" aspect betrays digititis as I have experienced it. [often!]

Well it’s all new to me it’s certainly not an illusion I just came across a reviewer that mentioned very briefly he unplugged the review sample of the Holo Audio May KTE dac from his Puritan brand AC conditioner he much preferred the Holo dac without this conditioner..

 

[Iving]

12 minutes ago, Hiker said:

Well it’s all new to me it’s certainly not an illusion I just came across a reviewer that mentioned very briefly he unplugged the review sample of the Holo Audio May KTE dac from his Puritan brand AC conditioner he much preferred the Holo dac without this conditioner..

 

Whatever you prefer is correct!

[Hiker]

55 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

Whatever you prefer is correct!

I don’t know if you are being sarcastic with that reply , I just ask a pretty straight forward question however it doesn’t matter .

I’m not alone in my observation and I am waiting a reply from this reviewer asking for further information he only made very brief off the cuff comment why he also prefers not to plug the Holo May dac in this particular Ac conditioner as for the little jump in performance that’s easily discernible.

[Iving]

Just now, Hiker said:

I don’t know if you are being sarcastic with that reply , I just ask a pretty straight forward question however it doesn’t matter .

I’m not alone in my observation and I am waiting a reply from this reviewer asking for further information he only made very brief off the cuff comment why he also prefers not to plug the Holo May dac in this particular Ac conditioner as for the little jump in performance that’s easily discernible.

 

What? No not at all. Your experience as first posted reminded me of my own. I posted politely hoping to be helpful and nothing else. It's inevitable that in the end you will make up your own mind. If you find factoring-in my remarks helpful then all to the good. If not - nothing lost. Wish you well with your experiments and reflections.

[Hiker]

2 hours ago, Iving said:

 

What? No not at all. Your experience as first posted reminded me of my own. I posted politely hoping to be helpful and nothing else. It's inevitable that in the end you will make up your own mind. If you find factoring-in my remarks helpful then all to the good. If not - nothing lost. Wish you well with your experiments and reflections.

I apologize, I missed interpreted your comments . From here I wonder if a medical grade isolation transformer used with a dac is even a good idea or not . Not having to plug straight into the wall receptacle is my goal and perhaps there is a better idea .

 

[Iving]

1 hour ago, Hiker said:

I apologize, I missed interpreted your comments . From here I wonder if a medical grade isolation transformer used with a dac is even a good idea or not . Not having to plug straight into the wall receptacle is my goal and perhaps there is a better idea .

 

I use two Topaz isolation transformers. One for digital (up to and inc. DAC = Dangerous Convert-2) and one for analogue (pre-amp and after). Long trial and error some time back. Masses of info early in this thread = 2016 onwards. John Swenson mentions Topaz + rationale first page.  If interested you can review my system - link in sig. line. Much blood, sweat and tears. But it's all part of the deal --- It's what you've got to do if you want to satisfy yourself that you are optimising your audio resources.

 

It's just a imho - digital annoyance or edge or hash or harshness or whatever - two things have helped me particularly - clean mains inc. Topaz transformers - and clocks. If you find enhanced "treble region" SQ but "annoying" at same time I think probably it's HF noise and you are better off with your DAC in the mains conditioner. Reviewers are only human and say what's right to them in their situation on the day. But you are you in your situation and you will know sooner or later - taking everything into account - what's best for you.

 

In what other past-time can you embrace so much pleasure and pain at the same time for so long? ;-)

[Iving]

Extracts from John Swenson p.1 this thread:

 

The isolation transformer I'm using is a Topaz model, it is a very special transformer. It has extremely low inter-winding capacitance (.005pf according to the manufacturer). Most transformers have two mechanisms that transfer AC from one side to the other: magnetic and capacitive. The magnetic part is low frequency (it is what the 50/60Hz mains signal uses) and the capacitive is high frequency. The combination means that a "normal" transformer lets a lot of high frequency crud through.

With its extremely low capacitiance the Topaz doesn't pass the high frequency crud on the AV main, just the base line frequency and a couple harmonics. Thus it is a very effective noise filter.

This isolation transformer keeps noise and surges from the rest of your house and neighborhood out of your audio system and fully preserves your safety ground.

My recommendation is to use a simple power strip with NO filtering or surge suppression, the Topaz does it much better than what will come in almost any power strip. I plug EVERYTHING into thepower strip. This dramatically cuts down on the impedance between boxes, significantly lowering noise generated by leakage loops.

Some people will say "but then the noise injected back into the AC mains can go right into other boxes". Yes it can. BUT recent experiments have been pointing to the leakage loops being a significantly greater detriment to ultimate good sound than the injected noise. Of course different systems are different and this may not be true in all systems, but it is looking like this is a good place to start for many systems.

The medical transformers may not have very low capacitance between windings, their leakage current is usually speced between winding and ground NOT winding to winding.

The leakage current I have been talking about is winding to winding, not winding to ground. So just because something is "medical" it may not be doing much good for the leakage currents I'm talking about. The MAY be very good, they may not.

[fas42]

My tuppence worth, 🙂 ...

 

A general rule is, the better sorted the components already are, usually the easier it is to hear the impact of remaining weaknesses in the setup - most components don't have enough isolation against noise artifacts built into them; so, the consumer has to add them externally, if he is fussy about SQ.

 

Unfortunately, every component will be different in how it reacts to what conditioning and filtering devices are put into the system - what works brilliantly for one DAC, say, may be a disaster for another nominally similar DAC - it all depends on exactly how all the circuitry has been designed, and implemented for the individual DACs.

 

General rules, as above, can be very useful as a first guide as to what to do in a particular situation; next, read up what other people have found to work, or not work, for similar combos of gear; finally, experiment, experiment, experiment - don't be afraid to chuck out the rule book, and try something quite different - just in case it supplies the right characteristics to suit your situation ...

[SoundSparks]

Dear Experts,

 

Could you please help me understand if Eaton T100R-1800 or T100R-2400 Power-Suppress 100 power conditioners will provide clean enough power supply to improve the sound of my modest Hi-Fi setup? I hope when power product is properly chosen, more dynamic range, control, and bass extension can be realized, and this is of critical importance for audio applications, IMHO.

 

Another question is how to choose the appropriate model for my two Class A Pass Labs XA60.5 mono-block power amplifiers with 200W Power consumption at idle. The HUGE problem is I do not know what their maximum instantaneous power consumption (i.e. at peak) is… Cannot even estimate the bloody thing!

 

Please chime in at your convenience.

 

Last but not least, please keep it safe, and stay healthy, dear friends!

[ASRMichael]

4 minutes ago, SoundSparks said:

Dear Experts,

 

Could you please help me understand if Eaton T100R-1800 or T100R-2400 Power-Suppress 100 power conditioners will provide clean enough power supply to improve the sound of my modest Hi-Fi setup? I hope when power product is properly chosen, more dynamic range, control, and bass extension can be realized, and this is of critical importance for audio applications, IMHO.

 

Another question is how to choose the appropriate model for my two Class A Pass Labs XA60.5 mono-block power amplifiers with 200W Power consumption at idle. The HUGE problem is I do not know what their maximum instantaneous power consumption (i.e. at peak) is… Cannot even estimate the bloody thing!

 

Please chime in at your convenience.

 

Last but not least, please keep it safe, and stay healthy, dear friends!

Hi, have you considered (if possible) putting in a dedicated mains rather than a conditioner? I removed / sold my conditioner after my dedicated mains was installed. The end result was amazing & at a fraction of the cost of a decent conditioner. 

[MarkusBarkus]

@SoundSparks that was my first question too: What does your current distribution infrastructure look like?

 

I agree with @ASRMichaelthat a dedicated line (or two) can make a big difference. I also recognize it's not always feasible to do.

 

I have two PIAudio UberBuss products I quite like, but recently I was considering testing a Shunyata Denali, or even an Everest. So I called Shunyata. 
 

An Everest is 8K but after a discussion about my gear and infrastructure, they recommended I plug my Extreme directly into the wall (dedicated line) and add a Shunyata Venom Defender (300 bucks) in the same outlet. 
 

I had one on the TV so I switched it over. Sounds great.

 

They also recommended I plug both of my Luxman m900s and the c900 pre into the other dedicated line, with another Defender. Remaining gear in the UberBuss...or buy a Denali.

 

I thought that was very direct and helpful info, and 8,000 vs. 600 dollars. 5,000 for a Denali, give or take.
 

Full disclosure: I did not move the amps over, because replacing two expensive power cords to make it possible would be painful. 
 

I recognize I did not answer your question, but I hope my reply might provide food for thought. Good Luck.

[SoundSparks]

What an excellent community: just posted my silly questions (please forgive me, I am just a humble musician, not an electrical engineer...), and already have answers! Thank you very kindly, dear experts!

 

1 hour ago, ASRMichael said:

... putting in a dedicated mains rather than a conditioner?

I wish it was possible, but this goes against the regulations in our complex, unfortunately enough...

 

2 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

They also recommended I plug both of my Luxman m900s and the c900 pre into the other dedicated line, with another Defender. Remaining gear in the UberBuss...

This is a very elegant, Mozart-like, I would say, solution! I realize in your case there is no concern regarding instantaneous current demands from your monster power amp (I assume you have a 20A dedicated line), but do you have any idea what its maximum peak current is, by any chance?

 

Do you feel the UberBuss is indeed not a current-limiting device? I take it your front-end gear is fed from it?

 

Any chance you could please compare the SOUND you get with and without Shunyata Venom Defender in the chain, and report back? Am i correct in my understanding you employ two Venom Defenders: plugged into the wall and into the UberBuss?

 

The reason I inquired about Eaton products is that they are the direct descendants from Topaz brand, which is highly regarded in this forum, as far as understood...

 

As you can tell, I am completely lost...

[One and a half]

Although the Eaton is a descendent of the Topaz line, the Eaton includes a parallel filter which the topaz never had. That filter is usually a set of caps which do a lot of things, one of them is put a kink in SQ.  Caps cause resonances between the impedance of the transformer and the load and do more harm than good for audio. Sound is thin and glare caused by peak currents interaction, most  'power conditioners'  have them and they sound like shit, just filter at wrong frequencies.

 

What Eaton doesn't advise in the specification is the capacitance between primary and secondary windings. The lower the value, the lower the transmissible crap from primary to secondary, the Topaz over the years offered three or four different values, the Eaton has 'none'. If they don't advise, must be junk.

 

I'd give the Eaton a miss and wire in a dedicated line or two/three from the main panel as 'distance' is the advantage. To add cream to the coffee, THEN add an old Topaz at the front end of that dedicated line(s), mainly for protection.

 

I wouldn't worry about the lack of dynamics, select a large enough transformer at least 1.6 times the watts of the power amp(s).

 

Improved bass (or actually squashing the crud which works in opposition to bass frequencies) is best with a balanced connection on the output of a transformer. This needs a bit of work professionally to install, not quite a DIY solution, as rules change for different countries.  

 

Negotiating a separate transformer for say sources and another for amps is tricky. Have often thought about it, but determining the ground point for two transformers with different return paths is not a trivial issue. Anyway, something for another day.

 

[oneguy]

17 hours ago, SoundSparks said:

Dear Experts,

 

Could you please help me understand if Eaton T100R-1800 or T100R-2400 Power-Suppress 100 power conditioners will provide clean enough power supply to improve the sound of my modest Hi-Fi setup? I hope when power product is properly chosen, more dynamic range, control, and bass extension can be realized, and this is of critical importance for audio applications, IMHO.

 

Another question is how to choose the appropriate model for my two Class A Pass Labs XA60.5 mono-block power amplifiers with 200W Power consumption at idle. The HUGE problem is I do not know what their maximum instantaneous power consumption (i.e. at peak) is… Cannot even estimate the bloody thing!

 

Please chime in at your convenience.

 

Last but not least, please keep it safe, and stay healthy, dear friends!

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/topaz-low-capacitance-isolation-transformers-for-affordably-clean-power.857448/post-15935604

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/topaz-low-capacitance-isolation-transformers-for-affordably-clean-power.857448/post-15936157
 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/topaz-low-capacitance-isolation-transformers-for-affordably-clean-power.857448/post-15961109