Discussion of AC mains isolation transformers

[SoundSparks]

8 hours ago, One and a half said:

I'd give the Eaton a miss and wire in a dedicated line or two/three from the main panel as 'distance' is the advantage. To add cream to the coffee, THEN add an old Topaz at the front end of that dedicated line(s), mainly for protection.

 

The Eaton is definitely out then. Would you still advise to use an old Topaz between the wall and my gear even in case I cannot wire in a dedicated line, please?

 

8 hours ago, One and a half said:

I wouldn't worry about the lack of dynamics, select a large enough transformer at least 1.6 times the watts of the power amp(s).

 

22 hours ago, SoundSparks said:

Another question is how to choose the appropriate model for my two Class A Pass Labs XA60.5 mono-block power amplifiers with 200W Power consumption at idle. The HUGE problem is I do not know what their maximum instantaneous power consumption (i.e. at peak) is… Cannot even estimate the bloody thing!

My digital front end does not consume much, but I have two Fathom® f110v2-GLOSS subs. What figure for their combined power consumption should I take, please? It cannot be 2.2 kW, can it? And what for my two power amps? Would 200 W + 200 W give us accurate enough estimate?

 

A million dollar question: what Topaz model(s) should satisfy my needs? Enigma...

 

@oneguy, I am reading through the discussion at Head-Fi you kindly referred to, trying to understand as much as I possibly can, and I must confess this is not an easy task for me... What I was able to understand is that an old Topaz would be a very useful addition for my modest Hi-Fi setup. The problem (a huge one for me!) is where I can possibly get a plug-and-play solution incorporating the appropriate transformer, input plug, power cord I can plug into the wall, and at least 6 quality output receptacles I can plug my gear into. Oh, I am in Canada, if that is important.

 

Do you see now, dear experts, how completely lost I am?

[oneguy]

1 hour ago, SoundSparks said:

The Eaton is definitely out then. Would you still advise to use an old Topaz between the wall and my gear even in case I cannot wire in a dedicated line, please?

 

 

My digital front end does not consume much, but I have two Fathom® f110v2-GLOSS subs. What figure for their combined power consumption should I take, please? It cannot be 2.2 kW, can it? And what for my two power amps? Would 200 W + 200 W give us accurate enough estimate?

 

A million dollar question: what Topaz model(s) should satisfy my needs? Enigma...

 

@oneguy, I am reading through the discussion at Head-Fi you kindly referred to, trying to understand as much as I possibly can, and I must confess this is not an easy task for me... What I was able to understand is that an old Topaz would be a very useful addition for my modest Hi-Fi setup. The problem (a huge one for me!) is where I can possibly get a plug-and-play solution incorporating the appropriate transformer, input plug, power cord I can plug into the wall, and at least 6 quality output receptacles I can plug my gear into. Oh, I am in Canada, if that is important.

 

Do you see now, dear experts, how completely lost I am?

You won’t find a plug and play T1 or T100 unit with 6 outlets unless from the factory. You’d have to build a solution either like I did here (https://www.head-fi.org/threads/topaz-low-capacitance-isolation-transformers-for-affordably-clean-power.857448/post-15420796) or as seen in the previous links to satisfy that requirement. I wouldn’t shy away from a little DIY work. Building the power strip isn’t that bad unless you are stuffing a terminal strip and 10awg wiring inside and if you ever need assistance myself or one of the knowledge people on here would be able to walk you through it. Or you could just buy commercial power strip, cut the plug off and use the that. Even simpler. 
 

On the question of size requirements, the lowest I’ve attempted to run my system (same as my signature except I had a Spring KTE, SU-1 and ultrarendu back then) off of was a 2.4kva and it did the job fine so you could use that as a reference point to determine what you may need.

[SoundSparks]

Thank you! I think the easiest way for me will be to get an old Topaz, and just use a simple power strip from Tripp Lite. Could you please help me understand why your setup needs a 2.4 kVA monster?😀

[oneguy]

Worst case scenario:

-Speakers are 400w per channel (not class A but planning worst case)

-DAC is 40w ish

-Pre amp 95W for the HE-9 I used to have

-Plus other random power supplies for DDC (gone now), Bluetooth stage, LPS-1.2, endpoint ~ 150w

 

That’s about 1100w total. Double that for the watts to VA buffer comes out to 2.2KVA so that’s why the 2.4KVA was used (not wired for balanced power).
 

I I currently run a 5KVA now because it’s wired for balanced power which means the 240v wiring configuration with 120v running though it. Plus there is no replacement for overhead IMO, lol!

 

All that being said, the kill-a-watt meter never gets anywhere near that high on the VA display. It could be limited to refresh rate and maybe the transients aren’t there long enough for it to display their values? I don’t know. That’s just a theory. 

My current setup has all my analog on one 5KVA wired for balanced power, the digital on another 5KVA wired for balanced power. Not necessary but they were the lowest measuring of the isolation transformers that I still own so I figured why not use the best. 

[SoundSparks]

Oh, I see now... What power amp does require 400 W/Ch, if I may ask, please? I take it it is Maximum Continuous Load, and by doubling it you cover any peak current requirements?

Do I understand correctly balanced power you employ does offer some advantages over "straight" Isolation Transformers like Tripp Lite or Eaton?

Now I am starting to think of Balanced Power Supply like this one or that... The problem is they provide 1.5 kVA ans 1 kVA respectively, only... I kind of like the U.K. offer better...

I wish I was a handy guy, but all I can do is to play piano...

[oneguy]

The Emotiva Stealth 8 active monitors were labeled as 200 amp for the tweeter and 200 amp for the woofer so 400w max per cabinet. I don’t believe the website said whether the value was maximum continuous or not. They are discontinued so I’d either have to check the Wayback Machine website or dig out your manual to check. 
 

The general rule of thumb that most people push is double the W to cover a power factor correction (PFC) of 0.5. W= VA x PFC

 

If you have a meter that measures VA or PFC and you can put your your equipment in a worst case scenario then you don’t need to assume PFC of 0.5 because you can measure it so you can potentially use a smaller isolation transformer. As I mentioned before, the kill-a-watt measures this but I have my doubts in its abilities to measure transients. 
 

Balanced power offers the main advantages of reducing EMF radiated from the wire, the transformer will run cooler and the transformer will run quieter. Any transformer that can do 120/240 in and out can be wired for balanced power. For example the two MGE T100’s (successor to the Topaz/MGE T1) I have can be wired for balance power and the MGE T100 was later rebranded by Eaton as the Power-Sure 100 there are Eatons that can do balanced power. 

Additionally, a unit may not be advertised as 120/240 units but it may still do it. Going back the T100, the T100R doesn’t list that capability but it can do it because inside the enclosure the transformer has the same outputs as the as the T100H. 

[SoundSparks]

@oneguy, Thank you very kindly! While I am trying to comprehend what you are talking about, I thought about employing UPS in audio... Is it a good idea at all? Harmonic Distortion looks a bit too high at < 3% at Linear Load ( < 5% at Non-Linear Load) to my liking...

 

 

Earlier @MarkusBarkus noted: "They also recommended I plug both of my Luxman m900s and the c900 pre into the other dedicated line, with another Defender. Remaining gear in the UberBuss...or buy a Denali."

 

Could you please, dear experts, give me your opinion on the efficiency of the UberBuss? Is it one of those "glorified power strips" which do no harm, but provide no improvements either?

[oneguy]

I haven’t tried a UPS but from what I understand it’s not a good idea for audio. 

[One and a half]

50 minutes ago, oneguy said:

I haven’t tried a UPS but from what I understand it’s not a good idea for audio. 

That's right, UPS are common mode generators, that's the online types, the offline types have passive filtering and chokes that make more mess. UPS are great for IT, no problems, but not for audio even audio servers. I do have my audio server on offline UPS, it has an isolation transformer to reduce the crud, it's something, and a compromise. The rest of the audio system is powered from a 2kVA Topaz. The barrier between the two AC power sources is an EtherRegen.  

[SoundSparks]

Thank you very kindly, dear experts!😃

I take it UPS is out... 😒

My neighbor's kid, an apprentice electrician, told me his mentor has recently installed a so-called "Whole House Surge Protector" for a guy running quality audio/video setup at home (along with the usual set of household appliances, of course). The kid dropped a few names for me (not sure if I got them correctly): Siemens, Intermatic (?), EATON, Leviton (?), Schneider (?) Electric.💭

Will you please be so kind to comment on the negative, and positive moments of such undertaking for audio fidelity, dear experts?😃 It you believe it would be beneficial, what brand(s) would you recommend, please?😃

 

[GryphonGuy]

8 hours ago, SoundSparks said:

Thank you very kindly, dear experts!😃

I take it UPS is out... 😒

My neighbor's kid, an apprentice electrician, told me his mentor has recently installed a so-called "Whole House Surge Protector" for a guy running quality audio/video setup at home (along with the usual set of household appliances, of course). The kid dropped a few names for me (not sure if I got them correctly): Siemens, Intermatic (?), EATON, Leviton (?), Schneider (?) Electric.💭

Will you please be so kind to comment on the negative, and positive moments of such undertaking for audio fidelity, dear experts?😃 It you believe it would be beneficial, what brand(s) would you recommend, please?😃

 

 

It sounds like you've got your answer living next door. Ask your neighbour's kid to ask the client if you could chat about how the gear is sounding? Then if OK, get your neighbour's kid to get his boss to quote for you on that gear.

 

Regards

GG.

[jsawyer09]

On 8/26/2021 at 8:05 PM, oneguy said:

I haven’t tried a UPS but from what I understand it’s not a good idea for audio. 

I've written extensively about this fora-wide in some manner or another. I have a PS Audio Stellar P3 for my dedicated listening room but do utilize an online double-conversion pure sine wave UPS for my networking gear and other ancillaries (Topaz 1kVA Iso-tranny, balanced Iso-tranny, LPSs, etc.) that is in my basement utility room. It's not a typical $100 UPS, though, you'd get at Best Buy or on Amazon. It's a Tripp-Lite model SU1500RTXL2UA. It runs a pure sine plugged-in or while battery powered. Different applications altogether, but when paired together in my system as a whole, the benefits are immense.

 

Would I use a UPS in an audio-only application where my system was plugged directly into it? Probably not a good idea as has been illustrated. For what comes before the system? Yes, absolutely. The power regenerator, for me, is a must have. I cannot imagine my system without one at this point, and I even have dedicated 20a lines for my audio room. This admittedly, more than anything and IMO, likely benefits one's system more than any expensive regenerator, UPS, cables or power conditioner. The real beauty of it is the relative cost. It might cause some amount of temporary disarray and/or marital strife, but in the end is the single-most (cost) effective upgrade for audio, period.

 

Here's the Tripp-Lite UPS I use:

 

 

 

 

[One and a half]

18 hours ago, SoundSparks said:

Thank you very kindly, dear experts!😃

I take it UPS is out... 😒

My neighbor's kid, an apprentice electrician, told me his mentor has recently installed a so-called "Whole House Surge Protector" for a guy running quality audio/video setup at home (along with the usual set of household appliances, of course). The kid dropped a few names for me (not sure if I got them correctly): Siemens, Intermatic (?), EATON, Leviton (?), Schneider (?) Electric.💭

Will you please be so kind to comment on the negative, and positive moments of such undertaking for audio fidelity, dear experts?😃 It you believe it would be beneficial, what brand(s) would you recommend, please?😃

 

Whole house surge protection at the main panel is a good idea. It's benign 99% of the time, doesn't affect audio, and lasts for years. When a high voltage spike enters the house from the street, the spike is absorbed by the protector and conducted in a control manner to ground. Depends on the rating, but 6kV is the common max limit and presumes the fault is due to switching transients or power authority goof ups.

 

If lightning protection is desired, that's a whole different concept again.

[MarkusBarkus]

...and I would like to add one of the best protective measures you can take: Add your hifi to your homeowners insurance. 
 

IME, even with protection, good grounding, etc...lightning does what it does and it doesn't always play by "our" rules.

[SoundSparks]

Thank you very kindly, dear experts!😃

16 hours ago, GryphonGuy said:

Ask your neighbour's kid to ask the client if you could chat about how the gear is sounding?

For some reason the guy didn't like the idea. Oh, well, some people are like that...

14 hours ago, jsawyer09 said:

Would I use a UPS in an audio-only application where my system was plugged directly into it? Probably not a good idea as has been illustrated.

I'll definitely get one for my office. I heard CyberPower is another reputable brand.

7 hours ago, One and a half said:

Whole house surge protection at the main panel is a good idea. It's benign 99% of the time, doesn't affect audio, and lasts for years.

O.K. than this is definitely the way to go! Could you please give me a few names/models, if possible? I am not positive I can trust the kid in this regard: he is just an apprentice...

6 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Add your hifi to your homeowners insurance.

What a brilliant idea! How come I didn't think of it from the beginning?! Better late than never!

[MarkusBarkus]

...and BTW: that tip comes from a call I had with Shunyata re: power strategies for audio. They said they always highly recommend it. 
 

And since I'm referencing that call, I was very impressed that they suggested plugging my server and the amps directly into the wall (I do have dedicated lines, which is not an option for you IIRC). Not that the recommendation is uniquely clever, but I called for guidance on adding an Everest or Denali. Very fair of them, I think. 

[SoundSparks]

That alone tells you a lot about their integrity! I will never hesitate to recommend Shunyata.😁

[Alaric. H]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KsLzmLJ6i1Dn2g2L6I just found a line conditioner next to a dumpster I was working near.

[Talley4217]

I work petrochemical and I do run across the Topaz units from time to time mostly in analyzer or lab settings.  Earlier this week I was doing a walk at Dow Freeport Tx and was in their lab when I came across this might gem:

Topaz Model #93110-31

10kv 1PH

.0005pf

146db 

205lbs 

 

 

 

Up to me finding this I had not known about a larger than 7.5kv rated preferred "-31" model number.  I started doing some research and came across another model which was a NOS Topaz 96220-31  20kv rated single phase which also had the .0005pf and 146db which was actually for sale and local to me in Houston.  I made a deal and picked it up earlier this week.   I had never heard of this model and there is zero information out there about them.

Here is the 20KV Topaz:

 

 

 

I currently run a new 2yr old Eaton Power Surpress 100 7.5kv model.  My plan is to switch that out for the 20kv model.  

The Power Surpress 100 7.5kv:
 

 

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

44 minutes ago, Talley4217 said:

I work petrochemical and I do run across the Topaz units from time to time mostly in analyzer or lab settings.  Earlier this week I was doing a walk at Dow Freeport Tx and was in their lab when I came across this might gem:

Topaz Model #93110-31

10kv 1PH

.0005pf

146db 

205lbs 

 

 

 

Up to me finding this I had not known about a larger than 7.5kv rated preferred "-31" model number.  I started doing some research and came across another model which was a NOS Topaz 96220-31  20kv rated single phase which also had the .0005pf and 146db which was actually for sale and local to me in Houston.  I made a deal and picked it up earlier this week.   I had never heard of this model and there is zero information out there about them.

Here is the 20KV Topaz:

 

 

 

I currently run a new 2yr old Eaton Power Surpress 100 7.5kv model.  My plan is to switch that out for the 20kv model.  

The Power Surpress 100 7.5kv:
 

 

 

 

 

Cool!

[JohnSwenson]

Just to let you know the units are KVA not KV. The A is important, it means volts x Amps, which is watts, so 10KVA is 10,000 watts, which is very different than 10KV which is 10,000 VOLTS.

 

We all know what you meant, but a 10,000 volt transformer is a very big thing.

 

John S.

[feelingears]

Wow, wish I had known about Topaz ten years ago!

 

+1 for PS Audio P3 regenerator for digital front end. Currently using it with a Schiit Saga+ preamp too but the Pass amp is direct to wall/dedicated circuit. I get a tremendous benefit from the P3 for lowering noise floor, treble clarity, and dynamics. Hearing it was one of those immediate, "oh, that's staying right where it is!" moments (only have had about three of those.)

 

Unfortunately it seems lately I've developed a hum coming from the PS Audio unit however (not thru the speakers). I'll have to read more here to see if there's a means to diagnose and remedy the issue.

[One and a half]

The 20kVA would do my whole house, would be an interesting exercise to design a soft start circuit for such a beast. That's after hiring a fork lift....

[One and a half]

14 hours ago, Alaric. H said:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KsLzmLJ6i1Dn2g2L6I just found a line conditioner next to a dumpster I was working near.

That's a motorised Variac, impressive, even if it doesn't work, the copper alone is worth the salvage!

[Talley4217]

5 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Just to let you know the units are KVA not KV. The A is important, it means volts x Amps, which is watts, so 10KVA is 10,000 watts, which is very different than 10KV which is 10,000 VOLTS.

 

We all know what you meant, but a 10,000 volt transformer is a very thing.

 

John S.

lol.  Yes you are correct.  Me being a master electrician for 16yrs I might of gotten lazy with my verbiage and also assume we all what we are talking about.  Good catch though.