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PS Audio LANRover


dapla
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New and interesting video from PS Audio on another usb-improvement device. I didn't want to start another thread as I have had few listening experiences with these "improve your usb signal" devices. After searching, this seems like the best place for this post, but as it is a curated thread, if the caretaker finds it amiss I am happy to be corrected.

 

[video=youtube_share;TUl9fJNyfbo]http://youtu.be/TUl9fJNyfbo

 

(added---I see there is already a discussion on it at Head-fi--I'll link it, but will edit it out of that's inappropriate in this thread)--- http://www.head-fi.org/t/803111/xmos-xu208-usb-bridges-the-latest-gen-has-arrived/675

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Mutec MC-3+ USB, Acousence AFIS, microRendu and now the LAN-Rover. There's is so much going on and coming up in computer audio these days. I think I'll stay under the radar for a while before making any choices...

Streamer dCS Network Bridge DAC Chord DAVE Amplifier / DRC Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Speakers Lindemann BL-10 | JL audio E-sub e110 Head-fi and reference Bakoon HPA-21 | Audeze LCD-3 (f) Power and isolation Dedicated power line | Xentek extreme isolation transformer (1KVA, balanced) | Vibex one 6R power distributor | Uptone Audio JS-2 | Uptone Audio EtherREGEN | Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS-1.2 | Sonore OpticalModule | Emo Systems EN-70HD | Jensen CI-1RR Cables Transparent premium AES/EBU, Nordost Leif Red Dawn analog RCA, Kimber 8TC speaker cables, custom star-quad with Oyaide connectors for AC, Ghent for DC and ethernet Roon server Mac Mini/i7/SSD/16GB/Uptone DC mod/ext. SDD via firewire, Catalina | Roon | Tidal | Qobuz 

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For those that may not want to spend the time to watch the video, I can give a brief overview of the product. Paul explains it as a two unit device which accepts a USB output from your PC and which is connected to your router, and then the signal is received wirelessly by the receiving unit from your LAN and converted back to USB for connection to your DAC. It uses an ASIC (Application Specific IC) to handle the conversion. No price is mentioned and it is targeted for beta testing in June. He states that the improvement in sound quality is much better than any other USB device he has tried and believes that it is in part due to its galvanic isolation in the LAN connection. Hope that this helps!

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It appears the video---which was only 12 minutes long fwiw--has been removed by the user. In the other discussion I linked to, there was some posting that "the same thing more or less" may be already available for under $200 (just reporting what was stated there).

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For those that may not want to spend the time to watch the video, I can give a brief overview of the product. Paul explains it as a two unit device which accepts a USB output from your PC and which is connected to your router, and then the signal is received wirelessly by the receiving unit from your LAN and converted back to USB for connection to your DAC. It uses an ASIC (Application Specific IC) to handle the conversion. No price is mentioned and it is targeted for beta testing in June. He states that the improvement in sound quality is much better than any other USB device he has tried and believes that it is in part due to its galvanic isolation in the LAN connection. Hope that this helps!

 

Well, the most intriguing for me was that Paul stated this product knocks the socks off the Uptone Audio Regen.

Streamer dCS Network Bridge DAC Chord DAVE Amplifier / DRC Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 Speakers Lindemann BL-10 | JL audio E-sub e110 Head-fi and reference Bakoon HPA-21 | Audeze LCD-3 (f) Power and isolation Dedicated power line | Xentek extreme isolation transformer (1KVA, balanced) | Vibex one 6R power distributor | Uptone Audio JS-2 | Uptone Audio EtherREGEN | Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS-1.2 | Sonore OpticalModule | Emo Systems EN-70HD | Jensen CI-1RR Cables Transparent premium AES/EBU, Nordost Leif Red Dawn analog RCA, Kimber 8TC speaker cables, custom star-quad with Oyaide connectors for AC, Ghent for DC and ethernet Roon server Mac Mini/i7/SSD/16GB/Uptone DC mod/ext. SDD via firewire, Catalina | Roon | Tidal | Qobuz 

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Well, the most intriguing for me was that Paul stated this product knocks the socks off the Uptone Audio Regen.
I suspect that Paul's boast in that regard might just be a bit of hyperbole. Paul does tend to get very excited about his own products. I think I just might want to hear a more independent arms-length appraisal before I get excited about it too.

 

I can't help but wonder if, on reflection, Paul decided that it would have been better had he not made that particular remark and therefore took down the video. Just speculation on my part, no more.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Intona Industrial > W4S Recovery = job already done.

 

;-)

Source:

*Aurender N100 (no internal disk : LAN optically isolated via FMC with *LPS) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch - split for *LPS) > Intona Industrial (injected *LPS / internally shielded with copper tape) > DIY 5cm USB link (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > W4S Recovery (*LPS) > DIY 2cm USB adaptor (5v rail removed / ground lift switch) > *Auralic VEGA (EXACT : balanced)

 

Control:

*Jeff Rowland CAPRI S2 (balanced)

 

Playback:

2 x Revel B15a subs (balanced) > ATC SCM 50 ASL (balanced - 80Hz HPF from subs)

 

Misc:

*Via Power Inspired AG1500 AC Regenerator

LPS: 3 x Swagman Lab Audiophile Signature Edition (W4S, Intona & FMC)

Storage: QNAP TS-253Pro 2x 3Tb, 8Gb RAM

Cables: DIY heavy gauge solid silver (balanced)

Mains: dedicated distribution board with 5 x 2 socket ring mains, all mains cables: Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 Dual Screen

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The Lanrover looks very much like the Icron OEM product.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25604[/ATTACH]

 

There's an error in the statements at 6:18 where Extenders cannot send data at high speed.... Icron have been making USB extenders for quite some time at USB Audio Class 2.0 speeds.

I don't think it is ... not from Paul's description.

 

If I understand the product correctly ... the LANRover runs over Ethernet protocols so can be connected via switches (and via WiFi bridges, etc). The Icron product you linked to however purely uses Cat5e cabling to connect the two USB "extenders" - you could not connect these via switches nor utilise WiFi as a link.

 

Looking further on the Icron website the LANRover may be Extend USB 2.0 over Gigabit Ethernet, Cat5 with the RG2304GE-LAN so it maybe you knew what I wrote above and just linked to the wrong product. Though interestingly the Fast Ethernet (10/100) version of the Icron USB over LAN device specifically says not for Isochronous devices such as audio devices though perhaps with Async audio devices this limitation doesn't exist and/or the Gigabit devices night be different.

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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I suspect that Paul's boast in that regard might just be a bit of hyperbole. Paul does tend to get very excited about his own products. I think I just might want to hear a more independent arms-length appraisal before I get excited about it too.

 

I can't help but wonder if, on reflection, Paul decided that it would have been better had he not made that particular remark and therefore took down the video. Just speculation on my part, no more.

 

This is not a Paul's product, he said himself that this is the first product not engineered by ps audio.

I suspect this is the product once uptone was talking about.

I hope this can be brought to the market without the ps audio mark up price.

very interesting!

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This is not a Paul's product, he said himself that this is the first product not engineered by ps audio.
"The LANRover is going to become a product that we're going to sell. And we'll do beta testing in June."

 

It may not have been engineered in house, but it sure sounds like Paul considers it to be his product. :)

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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"The LANRover is going to become a product that we're going to sell. And we'll do beta testing in June."

 

It may not have been engineered in house, but it sure sounds like Paul considers it to be his product. :)

 

It means that it will be branded by ps audio and sold by them, but I expect that the manufacturers will also be able to sell a similar solution.

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I suspect that Paul's boast in that regard might just be a bit of hyperbole. Paul does tend to get very excited about his own products. I think I just might want to hear a more independent arms-length appraisal before I get excited about it too.

 

I can't help but wonder if, on reflection, Paul decided that it would have been better had he not made that particular remark and therefore took down the video. Just speculation on my part, no more.

 

Wow this may be the first thing we ever agreed with each other about!!

 

Yes he does like to boast.

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I don't think it is ... not from Paul's description.

 

If I understand the product correctly ... the LANRover runs over Ethernet protocols so can be connected via switches (and via WiFi bridges, etc). The Icron product you linked to however purely uses Cat5e cabling to connect the two USB "extenders" - you could not connect these via switches nor utilise WiFi as a link.

 

Looking further on the Icron website the LANRover may be Extend USB 2.0 over Gigabit Ethernet, Cat5 with the RG2304GE-LAN so it maybe you knew what I wrote above and just linked to the wrong product. Though interestingly the Fast Ethernet (10/100) version of the Icron USB over LAN device specifically says not for Isochronous devices such as audio devices though perhaps with Async audio devices this limitation doesn't exist and/or the Gigabit devices night be different.

 

Yeah, the thing I'm scratching my head about is the issue of clocking/re-clocking. If I understand this correctly, the TCP/IP protocols for ethernet basically eliminate the issues with USB packet loss. However,

 

1) the USB stream into the first part of the LANRover/Icron would still need to be as accurate as possible, I would think - right? Otherwise, the TCP/IP packets wouldn't be bit-perfect, but would include the errors transmitted in that first USB stream from the computer - yes?

 

2) once the LANRover/Icron type device converts the TCP/IP packets back into a USB stream to head to the DAC, you're still going to be dealing with issues of USB transmission there, too - so I would think quality of USB cables, reclocking, etc would still matter there, yes? What are the quality of the clocks internal to these devices in re-constructing the USB stream headed to DAC? If they're not ultra-high quality, there should be gains still to be had, right?

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2) once the LANRover/Icron type device converts the TCP/IP packets back into a USB stream to head to the DAC, you're still going to be dealing with issues of USB transmission there, too - so I would think quality of USB cables, reclocking, etc would still matter there, yes? What are the quality of the clocks internal to these devices in re-constructing the USB stream headed to DAC? If they're not ultra-high quality, there should be gains still to be had, right?

 

Yes, the improved signal integrity and impedance match from a REGEN afterwards should still benefit.

 

I know a great deal more about this tech (ICRON's) and the implementations than I have time to write about right now, so I may share more later on. Don't want to step on PSA's toes at all as I think what they are doing (making people aware of an alternate solution) is great. To be clear though, ICRON introduced this piece in May 2013, so it is not brand new. It has just stayed way under the radar.

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

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It appears the video---which was only 12 minutes long fwiw--has been removed by the user. In the other discussion I linked to, there was some posting that "the same thing more or less" may be already available for under $200 (just reporting what was stated there).

 

Hi,

 

Audio Elf is correct here. The big benefit is putting this on the LAN, keeping the computer far away from the Audio Rack.

 

The StarTech, (plus maybe 1 or 2 others), are the only ones that do as Paul suggests, (compatible with GB LAN), full conversion and range from $599 to $999. The StarTech is available on Amazon for $499 and is 4 port USB.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-330-Feet-Ethernet-Extender-USB2G4LEXT2/dp/B00HFGQESY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

 

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I don't think it is ... not from Paul's description.

 

If I understand the product correctly ... the LANRover runs over Ethernet protocols so can be connected via switches (and via WiFi bridges, etc). The Icron product you linked to however purely uses Cat5e cabling to connect the two USB "extenders" - you could not connect these via switches nor utilise WiFi as a link.

 

Looking further on the Icron website the LANRover may be Extend USB 2.0 over Gigabit Ethernet, Cat5 with the RG2304GE-LAN so it maybe you knew what I wrote above and just linked to the wrong product. Though interestingly the Fast Ethernet (10/100) version of the Icron USB over LAN device specifically says not for Isochronous devices such as audio devices though perhaps with Async audio devices this limitation doesn't exist and/or the Gigabit devices night be different.

 

Like the traditional extender from Icron, the CAT5e cable was a classic point to point type, the protocol to extend USB2 could not be routable over switches. This is what I have for quite some time now using dedicated Cat5e cable, and helps with the Intona's often fickle handshaking processes.

Instead of Cat 5e, it's possible to use Fibre Optic cabling to achieve isolation, but the modules attract a 30-45% price premium over the Cat5e versions.

 

For the LanRover, and the Star Tech OEM product, it appears to code the USB in Ethernet packets or whatever magik they use in the transmitter, and the receiver picks up the same "encoded" message at the other end, like a typical (and reliable) broadcast method. In this case, it is necessary to have the two units, and for a home LAN is certainly workable if network cabling or Wi-fi exists.

 

The other issue is the power supply to drive the LanRover. Icron supply (for my model) a 24V 1A SMPS. Sbooster are about to release a 24V 1.3A linear supply in the next few months something, so will need to wait. The high current demand is assumed to cope with 2 x 500mA spec at the receiver end. For a audio use with a DAC, the current demand maybe anywhere between nothing and often 300mA or more.

 

As pointed out by Albrecht, the plus is the noisy computer especially pumping DSD512 can be at some distance away from the audio rack. Conducted noise will still be a problem, but with the differential circuitry for Ethernet will knock a lot of this on the head. There is of course PHY matters to deal with both at the USB and Ethernet sides.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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I am sorry,

 

I don't quite understand what you mean. These ASIC converters essentially convert an USB signal into TCP/IP protocol and behaves through the LAN like any other OSI model networked packet transfer, the receiver then builds a "new," isolated, USB signal. Am i missing something here??

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It means that it will be branded by ps audio and sold by them, but I expect that the manufacturers will also be able to sell a similar solution.
Fine. I really don't care one way or another. My point was simply that it will be a PS Audio product, i.e 'Paul's product'.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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I don't quite understand what you mean. These ASIC converters essentially convert an USB signal into TCP/IP protocol and behaves through the LAN like any other OSI model networked packet transfer, the receiver then builds a "new," isolated, USB signal. Am i missing something here??

 

Right, that is a form of tunneling, running USB over TCP/IP. Thus my "sneakily tunnel" comment.

 

As I understand it, the endpoint LanRover device is not network addressable and usable by other network devices other than the far point LanRover. For example, a PC Server can't address the endpoint LanRover directly.

 

So by "leveraging the network" I mean there can't be a web of standardized network devices and compatible networked software hanging off the network that could potentially utilize the endpoint. It's point to point vs. distributed networking.

My system here

 

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It means that it will be branded by ps audio and sold by them, but I expect that the manufacturers will also be able to sell a similar solution.

 

You mean like this 00-00315 - Icron Ranger 2211 - USB 2.0 CAT5e Extender (330 ft)

Eric


Ubuntu Studio Linux box (i7-9700, 8 cores, 16GB RAM, Intel X520-DA1 NIC, HQP Desktop) > fiber optic > MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ > fiber optic > fitlet2 (Linux Mint - HQP NAA) > T+A DAC8 DSD > Rogue Audio DragoN > Klipsch La Scala — digital volume control with HQP via Roon client, DSP with HQP convolution engine, Intel NUC (Roon server)

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