Those who own Audioquest cable...what do you think?

[Paul R]

You make it sound as if the ability to perceive spatial information is some kind of extraordinary skill.

Not only do I think that it doesn't require any special training but I am inclined to believe that anyone can do it (unless there's some medical impairment).

I will try that with my 7 year old later today.

 

Besides, I don't think that spatial information is musically relevant.

Watching a DVD of a live concert can also be a stimulating and exciting experience but the image/ visual aspect is not necessary as it's not music related, it's about sound.

 

As children we start reading illustrated books; the images help us understand bits of the narrative and keep us interested.

But as we grow up we learn that those images are not necessary, they're not part of the experience of reading.

Our imagination and our culture are all that is needed.

 

Music, as a means of expression and communication, doesn't require the visual aspect.

That's what distinguishes it from entertainment, which may or may not use music to achieve it's goal.

 

R

 

As I said- we will have to disagree here. Spacial discrimination of a multi-channel audio reproduction is not a naturally occurimg skill in humans- it is very definitely a learned skill. We did not evolve in an environment where artificially mastered audio recordings would be encountered.

 

Also, you are wrong about images and reading. Most of us do not give up the images, reading a descriptive narrative, either factual or fictional, creates images and sounds inside one's mind. For example, reading a well written novel is an A/V experience for me. I can imagine images and voices quite well, similar to a movie. Most people do have that capability to one degree or another.

 

You are coming off as some kind of elitist who believes his idea of what is important is music reproduction is true for everyone. It is not, and neiher are mine of course. But I expect mine are a little more common than yours. Perhaps not, but without good imaging, it would bot be worth the money to invest in high end audio reproduction.

 

Multi-channel video and music is of course, also very common. That recording you might play back from a video source also includes audio information about the artists on stage. At least it does in a well done recording.

 

-Paul

[Sal1950]

What about Audioquest cables?

They went bankrupt.

[Paul R]

Actually, I can.

 

 

 

While speech is learned, the learning happens whether we want it or not. I'd speculate learning to localise sounds is similar. For the record, I don't remember learning either.

 

Of course, like with many things, conscious practice can improve those skills.

 

 

 

Can these people localise sounds from physical objects? It's the same process.

 

Not well, and I am not at all convinced that what is coming out a pair of speakers exactly replicates what one would hear outside.

[Paul R]

I have seen several cats dogs and children respond to stereo imaging. Don't remember ever not hearing it. Clearly remember not being able to read as is the case with most people.

 

I bet it was to gross manifestations, such as in a movie soundtrack. Hard to get my cats or dog to pick out the string section. The cats do seem to have an aversion to piccolos though...

[CR250]

What about Audioquest cables?

 

They're Evil. I heard the owner drives a really nice car. We need to boycott and blog them out of existence.

[mansr]

Not well, and I am not at all convinced that what is coming out a pair of speakers exactly replicates what one would hear outside.

 

It doesn't, but the brain processes involved are still the same. It wouldn't be as intuitive otherwise.

[CR250]

Yep, it is defintely a learned skill. Bet you cannot remember not being able to read either, but you did learn that. (Imagine looking at this text and not being able to read it.)

 

I agree that it has to be something like an innate talent,nsimilar perhaps to speech. There are people with no physical defects that simply cannot learn to hear the stereo image. Rare, and sad souls...

 

Stel jou voor op soek t hierdie teks sen bot in staat is om dit te lees

 

試想一下，看這ŧ文字和機器人能夠讀取它。

 

Would it be fair to say that we're born with the ability see in stereo and pick up audible spatial information, stereo or otherwise, and to use it, our response must either be reflexive or recognized/learned?

[Jud]

 

While speech is learned, the learning happens whether we want it or not. I'd speculate learning to localise sounds is similar. For the record, I don't remember learning either.

 

Of course, like with many things, conscious practice can improve those skills.

 

Can these people localise sounds from physical objects? It's the same process.

 

Yes, localization of sounds is learned, and yes, it's very much like speech, in that for most people it's learned so early we don't recall it. It's also like speech in that either nature or (lack of) nurture can alter development to the extent that it is not learned.

 

Something analogous is that people with autism in fact see differently than most other individuals. Most people see an integrated "picture," a "gestalt." Research has shown people with autism tend to concentrate on particular features of a scene (e.g., high contrast borders and edges) rather than integrating these features into a whole.

 

When we receive signals in right and left ears and integrate these into an auditory "image" of a single object making a sound at some more central location, this is called "fusion." There's been considerable research regarding the aspects of sound that will cause fusion to occur, instead of being interpreted as separate sounds from right and left. I had an interesting experience along these lines when testing different capacitors in the right and left channels of my DAC and listening to well recorded mono (for example, Steve Hoffman's mastering of the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds.) The music coming from right and left speakers was audibly different. Fusion did occur, that is, I heard a single centered lead vocal for example, but it was oddly un-integrated. In a blog post about this test, I used the following cartoon image of the Batman villain "Two-Face" to give an impression what this sounded like:

 

[gmgraves]

98% of modern music should never have been written in the first place.

 

Well, there is that!

[gmgraves]

No less than the lofty vantage point used for your negative prognostication, George.

 

 

Exactly!

[Paul R]

Would it be fair to say that we're born with the ability see in stereo and pick up audible spatial information, stereo or otherwise, and to use it, our response must either be reflexive or recognized/learned?

 

No- we are all born with the ability to play a piano, drive a car, and hunt down, kill, dress, and cook our food too. We can not express those abilities without training and practice though.

 

Or in art, we can all see a painting or hear a musical performance. It still takes specialized training and knowlege to fully appreciate them. Even more to create or perform them.

 

See the difference?

 

[edit] Actually Jud explained it very well in a preceeding post.

[semente]

As I said- we will have to disagree here. Spacial discrimination of a multi-channel audio reproduction is not a naturally occurimg skill in humans- it is very definitely a learned skill. We did not evolve in an environment where artificially mastered audio recordings would be encountered.

 

I've had little exposure to multi-channel stereo music reproduction.

How much does it differ from two channel stereo when it comes to spatial reproduction of say a piano

 

Also, you are wrong about images and reading. Most of us do not give up the images, reading a descriptive narrative, either factual or fictional, creates images and sounds inside one's mind. For example, reading a well written novel is an A/V experience for me. I can imagine images and voices quite well, similar to a movie. Most people do have that capability to one degree or another.

 

It might not have been clear but I meant to say that we do not need to have images accompanying the text because we create our own.

That's why I mentioned imagination and culture.

 

You are coming off as some kind of elitist who believes his idea of what is important is music reproduction is true for everyone. It is not, and neiher are mine of course. But I expect mine are a little more common than yours. Perhaps not, but without good imaging, it would bot be worth the money to invest in high end audio reproduction.

 

The meaning of Music is well defined.

What can change is one's expectations and one's goals regarding reproduction.

 

R

[semente]

The cats do seem to have an aversion to piccolos though...

 

Might be the tweeters...

[Allan F]

No- we are all born with the ability to play a piano, drive a car, and hunt down, kill, dress, and cook our food too. We can not express those abilities without training and practice though.

We may be born with the ability to learn how to do those things, but we are not born with the ability to do them. More importantly, when it comes to creating music or art at a high level, some people are born with the talent to do so and others are not.

[wwaldmanfan]

No- we are all born with the ability to play a piano, drive a car, and hunt down, kill, dress, and cook our food too. We can not express those abilities without training and practice though.

 

I agree with Allan F, and could not disagree more with Paul R, concerning musical ability. I have always felt, and stated often, that musical talent is genetic, as some folks are good at learning foreign languages, and others are not. As an example, I will use Wendy Waldman, an artist with whom I am very familiar, although she's obscure to most people here.

Wendy was born and raised in L.A. Her grandfather, George Steiner, wrote music for Laurel & Hardy and Betty Boop. Her father, Fred Steiner, wrote music for Perry Mason, Gunsmoke, Rocky & Bullwinkle, Star Trek, and The Twilight Zone. Her mother was a concert violinist. Before she reached the age of 30, Wendy had released five critically acclaimed solo albums on Warner Bros. records, on which she wrote all the music and lyrics, wrote the arrangements, played guitar, piano, and dulcimer, and sang. She toured extensively to enthusiastic audiences.

She has subsequently recorded additional albums, but currently makes her living as a record producer of note, and a songwriter who has written for dozens of other artists, and won Grammys, too, if that means anything.

 

My point is that some people are born with innate ability, and others are not. I love music, and I've been playing guitar for 50 years, but I still stink. I've never written a song. Anyone can learn the basics, but either you have natural talent, or you don't.

Add to that the physical limitations. If you have small hands or stubby fingers, you are never going to be a great pianist or guitarist (Segovia was an exception).

 

[PeterG]

I definitely concur. Hearing a Bruce Springsteen song, which George also may not be familiar with, I discussed with a friend how many snippets of references in that song no longer made sense to the current generation. They either would miss the meaning or take it wrong, or not even notice it was supposed to be more than filler. In my mind for those of that time he did a superb job of evoking emotions and complete sense of situations in a gestaltic sense, but not if you simply don't get any of it as current teens and early 20's people would find it today. Nothing wrong with todays young people, it just wasn't timeless music even though it evokes timeless feelings.

 

 

Baby this town rips the bones from your back,

It's a death trap,

It's a suicide rap,

We gotta get out while we're young...

 

I call that timeless. (My kids do, too.)

[Paul R]

I've had little exposure to multi-channel stereo music reproduction.

How much does it differ from two channel stereo when it comes to spatial reproduction of say a piano

 

Stereo is multi-channel, albeit 2 channel. As opposed to monoaural recordings or mixes. I was not very clear about that.

 

 

It might not have been clear but I meant to say that we do not need to have images accompanying the text because we create our own.

That's why I mentioned imagination and culture.

 

Ah- I misunderstood you.

 

 

 

The meaning of Music is well defined.

What can change is one's expectations and one's goals regarding reproduction.

 

R

 

I am not sure that everyone agrees on what s music to one's ears! But I see your point.

[mansr]

I am not sure that everyone agrees on what s music to one's ears! But I see your point.

 

Actually, scientists recently discovered neurons that fire when a person hears music, whatever the style and whether he likes it or not.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/09/science/new-ways-into-the-brains-music-room.html

Distinct Cortical Pathways for Music and Speech Revealed by Hypothesis-Free Voxel Decomposition. - PubMed - NCBI

[gmgraves]

I agree with Allan F, and could not disagree more with Paul R, concerning musical ability. I have always felt, and stated often, that musical talent is genetic, as some folks are good at learning foreign languages, and others are not. As an example, I will use Wendy Waldman, an artist with whom I am very familiar, although she's obscure to most people here.

Wendy was born and raised in L.A. Her grandfather, George Steiner, wrote music for Laurel & Hardy and Betty Boop. Her father, Fred Steiner, wrote music for Perry Mason, Gunsmoke, Rocky & Bullwinkle, Star Trek, and The Twilight Zone. Her mother was a concert violinist. Before she reached the age of 30, Wendy had released five critically acclaimed solo albums on Warner Bros. records, on which she wrote all the music and lyrics, wrote the arrangements, played guitar, piano, and dulcimer, and sang. She toured extensively to enthusiastic audiences.

She has subsequently recorded additional albums, but currently makes her living as a record producer of note, and a songwriter who has written for dozens of other artists, and won Grammys, too, if that means anything.

 

My point is that some people are born with innate ability, and others are not. I love music, and I've been playing guitar for 50 years, but I still stink. I've never written a song. Anyone can learn the basics, but either you have natural talent, or you don't.

Add to that the physical limitations. If you have small hands or stubby fingers, you are never going to be a great pianist or guitarist (Segovia was an exception).

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24601[/ATTACH]

 

 

You are quite correct. Talent is genetic. You have it or your don't. This "everybody is born with abilities to do anything, they just need nurturing" is a lot of new-age hypereagalitarian nonsense. If everyone was born equal, we'd all be able to write a Beethoven 9th, write Shakespeare-like Sonnets, and paint a Van Gough. We aren't because most of us don't have the talent that we could develop to do one of those things. much less all of them.

 

Were George and Fred Steiner related to Max Steiner ("King Kong", "Gone With the Wind", "The Searchers", etc.)? I always assumed that they were.

[Sal1950]

98% of modern music should never have been written in the first place.

 

I would venture a guess that the same could be said of the music composed in the classical era. They weren't all Mozart's for Beethoven's back then either.

Also I believe your position to be a bit overstated. It may be that in your opinion that music should never be written. But I would say that much of the music you would point to as worthless had genuine meaning and value to some peoples lives at that time.

The value of music has nothing to do with anything but what it say to it's listener.

[mansr]

I would venture a guess that the same could be said of the music composed in the classical era. They weren't all Mozart's for Beethoven's back then either.

Also I believe your position to be a bit overstated. It may be that in your opinion that music should never be written. But I would say that much of the music you would point to as worthless had genuine meaning and value to some peoples lives at that time.

The value of music has nothing to do with anything but what it say to it's listener.

 

You're taking me far too seriously.

[mansr]

You are quite correct. Talent is genetic. You have it or your don't. This "everybody is born with abilities to do anything, they just need nurturing" is a lot of new-age hypereagalitarian nonsense. If everyone was born equal, we'd all be able to write a Beethoven 9th, write Shakespeare-like Sonnets, and paint a Van Gough. We aren't because most of us don't have the talent that we could develop to do one of those things. much less all of them.

 

You're probably right, but I do believe everybody (possibly with very rare exceptions) is born with the ability to localise a sound whether natural or a stereo reproduction. A creature with more than two ears (do such exist) might not be so easily tricked though.

[Sal1950]

You're probably right, but I do believe everybody (possibly with very rare exceptions) is born with the ability to localise a sound whether natural or a stereo reproduction. A creature with more than two ears (do such exist) might not be so easily tricked though.

Absolutely, walk up behind a little baby and clap your hands, he'll try to turn towards the direction of the sound. Sit anyone down to your system and he'll immediately notice the illusion of the performers positioning. With no experience he may not hone in on the finer details of depth, the reproduction of the recordings venues air, etc. But he can learn these details with practice.

Musical talent is a whole different issue than a humans ability to hear a sounds source.

[Sal1950]

You're taking me far too seriously.

 

 

Okie dokie.

[CR250]

Actually, scientists recently discovered neurons that fire when a person hears music, whatever the style and whether he likes it or not.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/09/science/new-ways-into-the-brains-music-room.html

Distinct Cortical Pathways for Music and Speech Revealed by Hypothesis-Free Voxel Decomposition. - PubMed - NCBI

 

If you haven't already seen it, watch the Nova episode "Memory Hackers" that aired on 2/10/16. I think you'll find the subject matter it very interesting.